Borough Park, NY – They are known as the Bobov 48 and Bobov 45. And word on the street is that the Bobov Din Torah will finally come to an end this winter. If so, it was a Din Torah that will have lasted four long years.
Subscribe to our Daily Roundup Email
The Din Torah, of course, is between Rav Ben Tzion, the second son of Rav Shlomo and the half-brother of Reb Naftuli, the leader of Bobov 48th Street and Rav Mordechai Duvid Unger of Bobov of 45th Street, the son-in-law of the previous Rebbe Reb Naftuli.
The Bais Din was a hand-picked Zavla Bais Din of Five Town . Zavla stands for Zeh Borer Lo Echad – each side chooses one representative and those representatives choose a third objective judge.
In this case three objective judges were chosen. The two initial representatives are Rabbi Zalman Gross of the 48th Street Bobov and Dayan Yitzchok Berger from Manchester representing the 45th Street Bobov. The three neutral Dayanim are (1) the Chatkover Ruv, Rabbi Yoztchok Zelbereich, (2) Rabbi Avrohom Burich Rosenberg, (3) Rabbi Yechiel Baabad, the Tartikover Rav.
One of the reasons that the issue has taken so long is that the Bais Din meets sporadically.
The issues that the Bais Din has been ruling upon are numerous. The number one issue is whether there is a concept of “inheritance” – Yerusha at all in regard to a Chasidic dynasty or does the Chassidus belong to all the members of the Kehillah. If it is the latter, then the repercussions are that there is no Yerusha to talk of at all. This would effect the institutions, the positions, the power to appoint people in positions, and of course title to the real properties.
If the Bais Din rules that there is indeed a concept of Yerushah, then the question revolves around who, in fact does inherit in this specific case. Reb Naftuli, the most recent Bobover Rebbe who passed away, left only two daughters and no sons. Are the sons-in-law next in line for inheritance? Or does it revert to the half-brother of the previous Rebbe? The third issue involves whether there was a “will” – a tzavaah of the previous Bobover Rebbe Reb Shlomo, and whether or not that Tzavaah is binding. No one is arguing that there was no written Tzavaah – the question is was there an oral one? The oral one, if it was actually transmitted was only witnessed by one person, and that too is an issue for the five Dayanim.
The entire episode is one of great frustration for many members of the Bobov community and beyond. The plus side is that despite all the rancor, both sides have remained in Bais Din and have not taken their disputes to secular court like has occurred within the Satmar dynasty dispute.
Why the urgency, now? It has been conjectured that the economy has had an enormous impact and has created pressure to settle some of the outstanding issues as soon as possible. The 48th Street Bobov has been particularly hit hard by the economic downturn. It has been predicted that a final conclusion will be reached by February.
I give credit to Bobov for keeping it civil and doing as they preach
they dont get a shkoiach for not going to court. secondly noone wins in a machlokes…
i can already see the end of the bobov chasidus….
The 48th Street Bobov has been particularly hit hard by the economic downturn. It has been predicted that a final conclusion will be reached by February.
just the oppisite 45 th bobov was hit hard
They WAS in court the judge simply send them to din torah
“The 48th Street Bobov has been particularly hit hard by the economic downturn”
I think this should say 45
What happens after the ruling? The defeated rebbe pack his bags and looks for a different job?
A number of clarifications:
The dispute was originally in court, and it was a frum judge that pushed them to go to din torah.
The article also leaves out the issue of how to count who is in the kehilla, and who is considered to belong to which side.
There is also an issue of investments made with money from and using the non profit status of UBI-United Bobov International, is privately owned or belongs to Bobov.
There is also a question of what status ‘Rav Hatzuir-the young Rebbe’ means.
As for comparing it to Satmar, while Satmar chose to fight in public, on a personal lever there is much more harmony. Families weren’t torn apart, shiduchim weren’t cancelled, and the mosdos worked together behind the scenes.
Your info is wrong. Coming to an end? Ha. It was just pushed off for 2 months
I thought they DID try to take it to secular court, but were asked by the judge to go to Beis Din instead.
What an amazing sory.
If not for the Five Towns, how would the people in Boro Park get the news of Bobov??
When the dvision first took place, it broke my heart. Mind you, I am not a Bobover Chosid, but I recall that Reb Shlomo ZT”L stood for “Ahavas Yisroael” he had no bad words for anyone. So that a “Machlokes” should break out in Bobov, is definitely “Maase Satan” no less, the Devil’s work. It separated families, fathers and sons, brother, etc. They say that Rav Unger is a big “Talmid Chochom”, so he should have become the “Rosh Hayishivah”. Let’s hope that the “Psak” of the Beis Din will be accepted by all, and that Bobov will be restored to its former glory.
I think they got it a little confused. Its the 45th side that finds itself in dire financial straits, ever since the demise of their primary benefactor Dunner. The staff hasn’t been paid in months and things are starting to fall apart. At this point they are just hoping for some sort of monetary award from b”d in order to be able to survive. The dispute regarding the infrastructure is a foregone conclusion.
By the way, there were attempts to go to court. 45th street initiated a case in Sullivan County regarding the summer camps. But b”d put a stop to it by pulling everything into one case.
In the end, it is the entire Bobov who are the losers. They used to enjoy universal acceptance as a friendly peacful place. Ever since the dispute they have lost their lustre in the eys of the rest of klal yisroel. Shame.
So these 5 dayanim started learning halacha now if I’m not mistaken the Rebbe ZT”L was niftar like 5 years ago what’s taking them so long?
they are fighting for the others rights to be dismantelrd. Why? Why cant there be 2 Bobover rebbes. The looser will maintain his own stature anyway? Y’eha Sholom.
They went to court in front of judge schmit, but he forced them to go to a bais din!
This entire parsha is a tragedy, the way the din torahs are run. In the the Mishpacha,
several weeks ago there was an article about a wonderful Bais Din that takes
minutes. This lacking plus the spariodical sessions is what makes the Din Toras
so corrupt and damaging.
The fact that they do not record the sessions, for later review and the far
spaced sessions causes
1) Many important facts to be forgotten and distorted.
2) A lot of nonsense being spoken, which causes much wasted precious
time.
3) Lies flowing freely, because they can later be denied as they are not
accounted for.
The long drawn out Din Toras causes
1) Too much bad blood to flow between the 2 parties, that are usually
irreparible.
2) The finances become more entangled and usually irretrievable.
The Dayanim will yet have to give Din Vecheshbon for all the damages
they are causing. They are the cause for people to go to courts.
Veyehi Bimei Shfot Hashoftim…is how Migilas Rus begins, we all know
that Veyehi, symbolizes “bad times” all tzoros come to Klall Yisroel when
the Dayanim are corrupt. They are responsible for all the tzoros in klall
Yisroel, and the poor victims are afraid to open their mouth
When the news is that two Jewish leaders are trying to do it right makes the headlines because it’s news, then it’s bad news.
some 45th street guy wrote this article. no question about it
And if Bobov 48 wins, what stops bobov 45 from opening up under a different name?
the late bobov rebbe R’ Shlomo z”l is surely proud of his decendents
The website of the Five Towns Jewish Times has been hacked by Islamic extremists! http://www.5tjt.com
Thank you bobov for not being in court with your schmutz, I hope bes din will resolve this dispute to be beneficial to all parties. Again, thanks for making a kidish hashem being in bes din instead of secular court. The satmar dispute is really ugly and a big chilel hashem.
To #1 and #3
The Court sent this case to Din Torah becouse this is what was the request, you can see it if you look for the papers of this case.
Going to Beth din doesnt mean Macloikes, its a Dispute, Dispute doesnt = Machloikes, Yes I am a proud BOBOVER that we dont have any machloikes or Hate, Yes we have a dispute and we did what the Torah tells us to do, Go to Beth Din.
Go into any BOBOV Shul on shabbos and you will find BOBOVERS from both Tzedodim.
To bring up Satamar dispute in comparison is complete Loshon Hora.
The article also leaves out the issue of “Trademark,” which of the two communities own the name BOBOV
I find Bobov to be a very pragmatic and progressive Chassidus. The young men who ought to be working are working and supporting their families. I know many young men who have taken college courses. They provide paralegal training for girls. The Chassidus has not been been taken over by hot heads. It is Torah im Derech Eretz – with Chassidishe malbish. Perhaps this is why they are peacefully resolving disputes in Bes Din.
I thought ZAVLA stands for “Ze borer Litvak echad” as otherwise this issue is impossible to resolve.
Satmer machlokes is boring allready , this is like change of scenery ,a breath of fresh air,, leider!!
Dont give it to either of them take a new brother or son or son-in law to restart a chasidus which was butiful
This is a typical example of low quality news.
The Article Doesn’t Mention
1. The Din Torah is still ongoing and there are scheduled hearing up until May 18,
2. That main issues are, who owns the Trademark , and if a minority that left has can claim his share .
3. That a spechial election was held a year ago, and the results were 29.8% for Unger – 70.2% for Halberstam
The BD has to rush in the psak. My feelings is that, with all these years,is like indirectly, directly, BD accomplished that will be 2 BobovERS REbbes, they are going now divide the money and assets, one way another and continue in their ways
The Dayonim and Toanim are all making a FORTUNE on this.
Bobov has enough billions to keep this Din Torah “ongoing” for the next 3,000 years.
Expect precisely that to happen as long as the Dayonim keep living off of the Rich endless Bank Accounts of Bobov.
The only time this case will come to a close will be when the dayonim run out of money to be paid, which will never happen.
Realistically it can only come to real close, during this century, only if it goes to court because the Dayonim have made a mockery out of the Din_Torah_Justice_System by them dragging things out forever when they have a very huge, financial VESTED INTEREST to keep it dragging out forever.
WHY BOBOV 48 IS GOING TO WIN
#1 he was named Rav Hatzoer
#2 they won the votes by a landslide 70-30%
#3 they have the chasukah
#4 they own the trademark
Meanwhile, machloikes breeds the worst midos. Yes, shiddichim are rejected because the other family is from the other side. Yes, (mostly 48 to 45) won’t greet someone from the other side in the street. Yes, people are excluded from being invited to simchas. Yes, some people cross the borders to enter the other beis medrash for simchos, but many don’t. 45 people complain that they are often heckled, sometimes physically attacked when coming to a simcha at 48. There are some zaides on that will not attend an oifrif or bris of an ainekel at 45. If anyone thinks these midos are good, find some seforim that say to do this. Otherwise, I think these things are disgusting. How can we raise our kinderlech when we allow this to go on? We need peace, and it must be right at the tops.
Hi, personally never understood 2 things. 1st, why would anyone want to be a rebbe to begin with. Its such a pressure and drain. If I were R’ Ben Zion and R’ Ungar stepped in I would’ve let him have it with open arms. 2nd, why should there be any arguments, the whole point of a rebbe is to give one a derech in avodas hashem. If one feels he can get it from R’ Ben Zion great! If another gets it from R’Ungar great!
whats the real reason the rebbes dont write wills? does anyone know?! wouldnt that solve all the problems?
I invite all of the Yidden that have no shaiches with Bobov to come see us.
Come see the Ruv’s weekday minyan, Hodu 8:25 SHARP. Come see the full big Beis Midrash upstairs & downstairs in Mishnas Yoina every night with Bale Batim learning. Come see Kabulas Shabbos. Come see the Tish Friday night. Come see the Divrei Chaim shiur given by The Ruv zul zein gezint every Shabbos morning 8:45 sharp. Come see Shabbos Shachris, Come see BOBOV at Shalei Sheedis. I guarantee it a sight you have never seen.
Come see our Koilel of 200 avreichem. Come see our Mesifta Bochurim.
We are finishing our new Bnos Zion building. We are building a new camp for our Yeshiva Ketana. We are ALIVE & BLOOMING!
They say seeing is believing. Don’t believe what you see on the internet. SEE YOURSELVES, YOU DECIDE!
We have a great Rebbe that supplies us with Toira, hadrocho & happiness.
Bobov is alive and well Baruch Hashem. Just like my father told me when the Ruz Z”L was getting older and thing weren’t the way it should be. ” Wait until Reb Benzion will take over. Es vet zein shener fin freier. Ich hub adurch geleibt dus tzvei muhl, ba de Kedushas Zion in ven de Ruv z”l iz gekimen kein America”.
dont know about you but i would have a hard time respecting a rebbe who is the cause of machlokes, what kinda example on mentchlichkait and derech eretz is that? let the big rav what he is say i a m mevater being rebbe and the hec with kavod. THEN he is respectable!!!
If anyone ever went to Din Tora, they will understand why people are driven to court.
(No excuse,nevertheless) Especially by Rabbi Rosenberg, and when
Rabbi Gruss is the Toen, they are a team. The entire session is a game played on the Baali Dinim’s expense. Arriving late, cracking jokes, throwing insults and discussing irrelevant topics,and dragging the sessions are the norm.
If they would take minutes as in secular courts, they would save a lot of time,
be careful what they speak, and Din Toras would be more meaningful and
productive. This is the only solution to changing the horrible system.
Its about time the Dayanim take their roles seriously, they are ruining the
Justice System by Klall Yisroel, which is at present a disaster. They are
causing people to go to court, or otherwise leave disputes unsettled.
They are the cause for increased Machlokes (since there is nowhere to
go to resolve them in a Toradige fashion)
Going to Din Tora to resolve disputes should be respectable and commendable.
Din Toras should end fast.
They ,the Dayanim and Toanim have made it into a MAFIA money making game.
They,too will be accountable one day,,,The Dayan Haemes is not sleeping.
No wonder why we are still in galus.
the 1st mentioned dayan name is rabbi zeltenriech
Have they ever considered the radical notion of choosing a successor to the rebbe by a popular vote of the chassidim (leaving aside the issue of whether the women should be allowed to vote) or even a concensus decision by the “alter chassidim” whose wisdom would lead to the best choice, rather than throwing the issue into either civil or rabbinical courts or automatically making the oldest son the new rebbe. I guess that making a decision on who is the “most qualified” to lead a large organization based on personal and professional skills and lamdus would be a threat to the lineage of succession concept.
This is a typical example of low quality news.
The Article Doesn’t Mention
1. The Din Torah is still ongoing and there are scheduled hearing up until May 18,
2. That main issues are, who owns the Trademark , and if a minority that left has can claim his share .
3. That a spechial election was held a year ago, and the results were 29.8% for Unger – 70.2% for Halberstam
do you really think that it will end this winter?? such shtissim– mark me on my word it wont end so quick.
If any of the Bobover Chassidim had an iota of respect for Reb Shlomo z”l the first thing they would have done was not to fractionalize Bobov. Reb Shlomo in his lifetime would not endorse even critical matters pertaining to world Jewry for fear that he would be taking a particular side. He was for peace sholom and harmony at all costs. It is only natural that his son steeped in as his successor. I am not choosing sides. If there was a need for another leader then he should have gathered his followers and made himself a beis medrash called himself any name other than Bobov and he would have been highly successful. Even Bobover chassidim would have supported him. To call himself bobover Rebbe in my opinion is to flush away years of his zaydeh Reb shlomo’s true legacy.
I don’t know much about Bobov but what I can’t understand is this Zibola thing. In London, Manchester, Antwerp, Gateshead, B’nei B’rak and, of course, Yerushalayim we have established botei din with completely neutral Rabbonim, all experienced and honorable. Each of the above cities has more than one such beis din so if for any reason one cannot go to one there is always a choice.
BTW Whatever you think of the Eidah Chareidis one thing is not disputed is that it’s Dinei Toiroh, Kashrus, Gittin and Chupas etc. are superlative and beyond reproach. I have seen an Eidah din torah. It was exemplary in its conduct and fairness and the loser admitted that it was in accordance with Halocho.
I feel so so bad for all the sore losers. Go nebach and sulk in your corner. Hamokum Yenachem Eschem. Complain about the votes, complain about the bais din that they are unfair and only talk trivial, complain that you were nebach thrown out, that the police lady gave over the shul, that you are a victim of circumstances, that the bais din will never pasken erlich. This is called in psychology Sour Grapes. Why are you now giving all the excuses in case you lose. Lets wait and see what bais din paskins. Why defame bes din with all names now. Maybe just maybe they will paskin on your side.
A wife afetr looking awhile found her husband hiding under the bed. The wife asked him to come out. The husband replied, No! I am boss! I can hide under the bed whenever I want. Sit in the Bais Yakov basement and scream out loud that you are the boss!
Hi bystander; a) I too believe that there is a strong possibility that he did write a tzavooha but it was gotten rid of when he was finally not in control anymore. Who would’ve gotten rid of it, would have to be the one who had the most to lose.
b)Without knowing any Bobover, how can you come to such a conclusion. Even in present 48 there are still a few remaining ovdei Hashem who for one reason or another are STILL there. In 45th there are dozens of ovdei Hashem without any gizmeh.
c) I take umbrage to what you wrote as it is exactly the opposite of the metziyess. My rebbe is NOT occupied with what you wrote; as a matter of fact he does everything in his power that his chasidim aren’t occupied with it. Please visit us and see for yourself.
My lawyer told me 22 years ago that the Worst settlement is Cheaper and Better then the best Decision…
The US Supreme Court Says “Justice Delayed is Justice Denied” This is one piece of chochmos hagoyim with which I agree.
It seems to me that when such a machlokes breaks out, at least one of the parties has behaved badly and probably both.
I have to wonder why the bigger chassidishe groups have more money and kavod and that is motivating much of the feuding.
I think the Kapishnitzer Rebbe was right to want his children to have a path to parnassah without being Rebbes. It leads to Rebbes who are more l’shem shamayim. R. Moshe was a great tzadik. He once said to me that learning to be honest in business is very good training for being a rebb because you learn to not claim your personal financial interest is l’shem shamayim.
Even if there is a practice of the successor usually being the oldest son, I find the idea of sons and son-in-laws feeling “ez kimt zei” very unbecoming. Such an attitude is the opposite of a true rebbe whose neshomoh is constantly answering the question what can I give my chassidim. To me the machlokes and some of the comments make me wonder whether these “yerushah fights” will become more common because we have too many children of rebbes who are for self.