Welcome, Guest! - or
Easy to remember!  »  VinNews.com

Cleveland, OH - Community Welcomes First Orthodox Female Mashgichah

Published on: December 4, 2009 09:59 AM
Change text size Text Size  

Mashgichah Debbie Isaak-ShapiroCleveland, OH - Debbie Isaak-Shapiro is the newest member of Cleveland’s “kosher nostra.” The first female mashgichah (kosher supervisor) in town can often be found checking food labels, perusing the inside of cupboards, scanning refrigerators, emptying dishwashers, and ensuring the rules of kashrut are exactly followed at Congregation B’nai Jeshurun.

Isaak-Shapiro, who is shomer Shabbos (Sabbath observant) and has always kept kosher, comes by her position as a mashgichah naturally. Her father was the shammes (sexton) at the family’s shul in San Francisco, and her mother was the premier kosher caterer in town. “I grew up in a busy kosher kitchen, and Judaism and performing mitzvot have always been an integral part of my life,” says Isaak-Shapiro, the wife of Agnon’s Head of School Jerry Isaak-Shapiro.

Kashrut is one of the few areas of Orthodox Jewish life where women have the same legal status as men. Unlike with rabbis or cantors, Jewish law holds that an observant woman has the authority to supervise kosher standards in a kitchen.

“I have a thorough working knowledge of what keeping kosher entails and how to organize a kitchen according to the laws of kashrut and Shabbat,” says Isaak-Shapiro. “One of my greatest joys is explaining why Jews keep kosher. I help people understand how keeping kosher raises a person’s conscious level of God’s presence in all we do.”

Advertisement:

Isaak-Shapiro’s workweek depends on the activity in the synagogue kitchen. “Whenever there is an event, no matter the size, I must check every single food item that comes into the kitchen and guarantee it has an approved heksher (kosher seal of approval),” she says. “At B’nai Jeshurun, there is a meat and dairy kitchen and so I’m extra vigilant that all cooking utensils and non-pareve food products are completely separated.”

The mashgichah’s eagle eyes must determine that chicken eggs do not have blood spots before they are used in cooking, and she must leaf through vegetables making sure there are no forbidden insects.

Read the full story at Cleveland Jewish News 



More of today's headlines

New York - An insurance agents’ trade group says it is prepared to fight New York’s proposed agent and broker compensation disclosure rule in court. If New York... Israel - Lev Leviev will be selling the Moscow Jewelry Factory to repay Israeli banks, according to local press reports. Leviev, whose conglomerate Africa Israel...

 

Total76

Read Comments (76)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Dec 04, 2009 at 10:11 AM curious Says:

"making sure there are no forbidden insects"

this implies that there are permissable insects?

does anyone know which insects are permissable today (and dont give me a history lesson)....i mean ...who is eating what permissable nsects today?

2

 Dec 04, 2009 at 10:12 AM Use Your Head Says:

Actually, the whole checking-eggs-for-blood-spots thing is kind of overplayed.....

3

 Dec 04, 2009 at 10:23 AM Kashrus Pro Says:

The article was clearly written by someone with an ax to grind which is VERY EVIDENT by referring to kashrus organizations & professionals as "“kosher nostra.” For those of you who BH don't know, this is very similar to the term used for "organized" crime. I will be writing a letter complaining to the Cleveland "Jewish" News about this term and I urge everyone else to do the same. Please remember to be polite yet firm.

4

 Dec 04, 2009 at 10:34 AM zev Says:

This is a non issue. Women have been in Kashrus for years. I know that they supervise many commerial kosher kitchens, nursing homes and hotels, etc. women are very trustworthy with all kashrus issues. Hey you eat your mothers cooking - don't you?

5

 Dec 04, 2009 at 10:37 AM just wondering Says:

Is a "isha" neemenes (trusted)halachically outside her home on kashrus issues?
Just wondering

6

 Dec 04, 2009 at 10:39 AM Anonymous Says:

this is all rabbi heinemann / star k 's fault. they instituded women mashgichot as a good idea... a shonda busha

7

 Dec 04, 2009 at 10:51 AM NorvegianJood Says:

Reply to #1  
curious Says:

"making sure there are no forbidden insects"

this implies that there are permissable insects?

does anyone know which insects are permissable today (and dont give me a history lesson)....i mean ...who is eating what permissable nsects today?

Some Yemeni Jews eat a couple kinds of locusts and have a long history of doing so, but since Leviticus is somewhat ambiguous about which locusts are permissible, most refrain from eating any.

8

 Dec 04, 2009 at 10:54 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #4  
zev Says:

This is a non issue. Women have been in Kashrus for years. I know that they supervise many commerial kosher kitchens, nursing homes and hotels, etc. women are very trustworthy with all kashrus issues. Hey you eat your mothers cooking - don't you?

I agree. I have met mashgichot in New York and Connecticut who are employed by kashrut agencies that are generally trusted by the frum community. Congrats to Ms. Isaak-Shapiro on her new job, though!

9

 Dec 04, 2009 at 11:06 AM Avi Says:

Reply to #2  
Use Your Head Says:

Actually, the whole checking-eggs-for-blood-spots thing is kind of overplayed.....

In what way is it overplayed? Granted, I can only recall one time finding an egg with a blood spot, but once is enough. When it comes to Kashrus, we don't deal in "likely", we deal in metzius.

10

 Dec 04, 2009 at 11:07 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
curious Says:

"making sure there are no forbidden insects"

this implies that there are permissable insects?

does anyone know which insects are permissable today (and dont give me a history lesson)....i mean ...who is eating what permissable nsects today?

Certain species of grasshopper are permitted, and Yemenite Jews have a Kaballa on these. I don't know if they eat them now, but I've seen video of an interview with an elderly Yemenite Jew (now in Israel) who remembered eating them, and when shown a specific grasshopper, identified it as a Kosher one.

11

 Dec 04, 2009 at 11:08 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #5  
just wondering Says:

Is a "isha" neemenes (trusted)halachically outside her home on kashrus issues?
Just wondering

Yes. Proof of this is all the sisterhood dinners prepared in shul kitchens over the years, along with all the kosher pot-luck meals.

12

 Dec 04, 2009 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Kashrus halacha is very clear that a woman has exactly the same status in being trustworthy as a man. A woman is trusted to say that her kitchen is kosher and that her family life is kosher. A woman caterer has the same degree of trust as a man caterer. There is no reason that women can't be mashgichot. The problem isn't halacha; the problem is culture. The chasidic communities won't accept it because of their reluctance to allow women a roll in combined community life other than with other women. The chasidic community for example accepts women therapists to work with female patients. As such, criticism shouldn't be leveled at a particular kashrus organization for allowing women mashgichot. If that hashgocho following accepts her role, then so be it. Nobody is forcing a chasidish hashgocho to hire a woman. If klal yisroel would recognize and accept the fact that Orthodox Judaism is comprised of various cultural levels, we might just merit Moshiach coming. We don't need tolerance. We need UNDERSTANDING each other's various cultural differences and that all of us together comprise klal yisroel and Am HaTorah in the path of the Torah.

13

 Dec 04, 2009 at 11:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
just wondering Says:

Is a "isha" neemenes (trusted)halachically outside her home on kashrus issues?
Just wondering

Ed Achod Neemon B'Issurim. SO yes, women have as good neemenes as men.

14

 Dec 04, 2009 at 11:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

this is all rabbi heinemann / star k 's fault. they instituded women mashgichot as a good idea... a shonda busha

Fault? What is the issue again?

15

 Dec 04, 2009 at 11:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Chasidim have no problem eating at each other's houses even though the wife is completely in charge of the whole cooking process, from the purchase of each ingredient including meats to the final preparations. Not allowing a female mashgicha is a cultural aspect of chasidic life not halacho. Why can't all the various cultural sectors of Othodox Judaism just do their own thing and not critisize others? If you don't want to trust a particular kashrus organization, don't.

16

 Dec 04, 2009 at 11:44 AM Anonymous Says:

My mother was a Mahgiach. She would help my father and continued after he passed away. Rav Moshe had a Teshuvah about her and women like her.

17

 Dec 04, 2009 at 11:46 AM big-josh Says:

'aid achud neman b'esurin"

18

 Dec 04, 2009 at 12:07 PM Women as mashgichim of course it is OK Says:

As long as they know enough halachos to know when could be a question and ask the Rabbi en charged of the kashrus of the establishment, should be OK.
So they must know a little bit more than the regular baleboste that learned so much from her own mother, and needs to know that she can't rely only on what she learned at home but know exactly what the hechsher halachik standards are.
The problem could start when the kitchen staff, management etc are rough and tough and you need somebody strong to keep them from crossing lines. At that point it may get harder for the mashgicha to assert herself at the same time that it would be needed a more profound understanding of Kashrus halachot than what you need to run your own controlled kitchen.
In other words the more complicated the Hechsher the more knowledgeable the Mashgiach, this is true also for men. A Mashgiach is not only a Jewish orthodox body on premises, but you need to have iras Shomaim and a fair knowledge of kashrus to be able to spot a problem, and of course a real Rabbi (no politics and economics involved Torah Knowledge and iras Shomaim) from the kashrus agency to be on your side.

19

 Dec 04, 2009 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Nashim daasan kalos.

If a woman is prohibited from giving aydus in a beis din, why should she be mashgiach?

20

 Dec 04, 2009 at 12:20 PM Cleveland Says:

FYI B'nei Yeshurun is a local Conservative Temple.

21

 Dec 04, 2009 at 12:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

Ed Achod Neemon B'Issurim. SO yes, women have as good neemenes as men.

it should be known to all that t6here is a meiri in yivamos that say sit is amachlokas taanaim if a woman is naamaen beisurrim

22

 Dec 04, 2009 at 12:31 PM Julie Says:

Who cares, that shul and that school are not even orthodox. Nobody who attends there even keeps kosher or shabbos.

23

 Dec 04, 2009 at 12:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
NorvegianJood Says:

Some Yemeni Jews eat a couple kinds of locusts and have a long history of doing so, but since Leviticus is somewhat ambiguous about which locusts are permissible, most refrain from eating any.

Believe it or not , there are choclate cover locusts (or somthing that looks like locusts or grassphoppers) with sephardic hashgacha sold in EY.

24

 Dec 04, 2009 at 12:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Julie Says:

Who cares, that shul and that school are not even orthodox. Nobody who attends there even keeps kosher or shabbos.

Just because the shul isn't orthodox, does not mean that nobody keep shabbat or kashrut. There are plenty of conservative Jews who keep Kashrut or shabbat.

25

 Dec 04, 2009 at 01:48 PM Shmaichel Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

Just because the shul isn't orthodox, does not mean that nobody keep shabbat or kashrut. There are plenty of conservative Jews who keep Kashrut or shabbat.

They "keep kashrut" according to their very new opinions and practices which reject several thousands of years of the Torah process of Halacha.

Like the Reform who, for just the past 40 years (or less!), now hold that children born to only a Jewish man is a Jew, the Conservative hold that many Halachic practices are no longer in force.

By the way, did you hear that the Conservative and the Reform have decided to merge?

They will now be known as Conform.

26

 Dec 04, 2009 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
zev Says:

This is a non issue. Women have been in Kashrus for years. I know that they supervise many commerial kosher kitchens, nursing homes and hotels, etc. women are very trustworthy with all kashrus issues. Hey you eat your mothers cooking - don't you?

Except, it is ASSUR according to Rav Moshe Feinstein zatzal....and the RAMBAM. (Check out Igros Moshe 2:44)

27

 Dec 04, 2009 at 01:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Kashrus halacha is very clear that a woman has exactly the same status in being trustworthy as a man. A woman is trusted to say that her kitchen is kosher and that her family life is kosher. A woman caterer has the same degree of trust as a man caterer. There is no reason that women can't be mashgichot. The problem isn't halacha; the problem is culture. The chasidic communities won't accept it because of their reluctance to allow women a roll in combined community life other than with other women. The chasidic community for example accepts women therapists to work with female patients. As such, criticism shouldn't be leveled at a particular kashrus organization for allowing women mashgichot. If that hashgocho following accepts her role, then so be it. Nobody is forcing a chasidish hashgocho to hire a woman. If klal yisroel would recognize and accept the fact that Orthodox Judaism is comprised of various cultural levels, we might just merit Moshiach coming. We don't need tolerance. We need UNDERSTANDING each other's various cultural differences and that all of us together comprise klal yisroel and Am HaTorah in the path of the Torah.

You are mistaken. Seperate and apart from Neemanus is an issue of Serarah--and the Rambam paskening women cannot hold positions that have Serarah---Such as the job of a mashgiach according to Rav Moshe zt"l

28

 Dec 04, 2009 at 01:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

My mother was a Mahgiach. She would help my father and continued after he passed away. Rav Moshe had a Teshuvah about her and women like her.

Rav Moshe was matit it in a Shas Hadchak situatiion (in the teshiva you refer to--read it for yourself)

29

 Dec 04, 2009 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

Ed Achod Neemon B'Issurim. SO yes, women have as good neemenes as men.

The issue is not whether they have neemanus--something not so pashut when it comes to the Klal. But even if they did, Rav Moshe assurs having a woman acting in the offical position as mashgiach

30

 Dec 04, 2009 at 02:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Nashim daasan kalos.

If a woman is prohibited from giving aydus in a beis din, why should she be mashgiach?

If a woman is prohibited from giving aydus in a beis din, why should she be mashgiach??

There is no linkage between the two...men are not allowed into the women's mikvah. Does that mean they should not be allowed to be mashgichim?? Please learn a yiddeshe vert before commenting.

31

 Dec 04, 2009 at 02:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Aidus in a beis din is specifically limited by the Torah to men only over 13. A woman has complete neemonus over grain and fruit that they are properly maasered and aren't tevel. She has neemonus over the kitchen completely. That includes that she bought kosher food and prepared it correctly, including separation of meat and milk. If a woman can prove that she knows yoreh deah, she can be a mashgicha. The problem is that as a general rule, frum kashrus organizations want to be trusted by all segments of society and therefore won't hire woman if it means losing the chasidic community.

32

 Dec 04, 2009 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Julie Says:

Who cares, that shul and that school are not even orthodox. Nobody who attends there even keeps kosher or shabbos.

I'm conservative and am shomer shabbos and kashruth. I also have some common sense and midos, somthing clearly lacking at your shtiebel.

33

 Dec 04, 2009 at 05:27 PM duvid Says:

Good for her

34

 Dec 04, 2009 at 05:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Ive seen plenty of women mashgichot, R Tietz in Elizabeth NJ had one at the Chines store when I was in HS

35

 Dec 05, 2009 at 01:51 PM Mashgiach Says:

Can't see what all the fuss is about. I have been working for 2 of the world's respected hechsherom for 30 years and they have been employing women for years. I personally have worked with female mashgichim on a variety of kashrus productions and always found them to be utterly reliable and knowledgable. If they aren't they don't get the job.

36

 Dec 05, 2009 at 06:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

I'm conservative and am shomer shabbos and kashruth. I also have some common sense and midos, somthing clearly lacking at your shtiebel.

In the conservative shul I go to, there are a few dozen families who are strictly kosher and shomer shabbat, as well as keep taharas mishpacha. The only real difference is that there is no mechitzah. By the way, in the orthodox shul down the road, there are far fewer people in whose houses I would eat---they drive to shul (just park in the lot next door and pretend they're frum). Why do I go to the conservative? It's closer for walking and there are many more children.

37

 Dec 05, 2009 at 07:20 PM Anonymous Says:

This is just not true! Anyone from Clevland knows that Gloria was the first Mashgicha!

38

 Dec 05, 2009 at 08:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
just wondering Says:

Is a "isha" neemenes (trusted)halachically outside her home on kashrus issues?
Just wondering

she is neemanus of a kosher kitchen and on taharas hamishpacha . do u eat in your others kitchen?

39

 Dec 05, 2009 at 08:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Mashgiach Says:

Can't see what all the fuss is about. I have been working for 2 of the world's respected hechsherom for 30 years and they have been employing women for years. I personally have worked with female mashgichim on a variety of kashrus productions and always found them to be utterly reliable and knowledgable. If they aren't they don't get the job.

UTTERLY RELIABLE? is that a play on words?

40

 Dec 05, 2009 at 09:27 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #5  
just wondering Says:

Is a "isha" neemenes (trusted)halachically outside her home on kashrus issues?
Just wondering

Why wouldn't she be? Eid echod ne'emon be'isurin, because the Torah says "vesofro loh"; why would inside the home be different than outside?

And if you did make such a distinction, and somehow proved that "vesofro loh" only applies in the home, then how could you trust a male mashgiach outside the home either? On what basis would you be taking his word, without this posuk?

41

 Dec 05, 2009 at 09:30 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

this is all rabbi heinemann / star k 's fault. they instituded women mashgichot as a good idea... a shonda busha

Nonsense. There has never been a time when women were NOT mashgichos! Almost every kitchen is under their supervision. All the Star-K did was recognise that there were now so many of them that they needed their own training courses.

42

 Dec 05, 2009 at 09:35 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Kashrus halacha is very clear that a woman has exactly the same status in being trustworthy as a man. A woman is trusted to say that her kitchen is kosher and that her family life is kosher. A woman caterer has the same degree of trust as a man caterer. There is no reason that women can't be mashgichot. The problem isn't halacha; the problem is culture. The chasidic communities won't accept it because of their reluctance to allow women a roll in combined community life other than with other women. The chasidic community for example accepts women therapists to work with female patients. As such, criticism shouldn't be leveled at a particular kashrus organization for allowing women mashgichot. If that hashgocho following accepts her role, then so be it. Nobody is forcing a chasidish hashgocho to hire a woman. If klal yisroel would recognize and accept the fact that Orthodox Judaism is comprised of various cultural levels, we might just merit Moshiach coming. We don't need tolerance. We need UNDERSTANDING each other's various cultural differences and that all of us together comprise klal yisroel and Am HaTorah in the path of the Torah.

It's got nothing to do with chassidic "reluctance to allow women a roll in combined community life" (what kind of roll? challah? kaiser?). The reason there are so few women in hashgocho is that most hashgocho jobs are unsuitable for most women, for various reasons, e.g. hours, atmosphere, or the need for physical strength. That will always be the case, and so the vast majority of mashgichim will always be men. But that still leaves many jobs that are suitable for women, as well as some women who are able to work unusual hours, or who are unusually strong, etc.

43

 Dec 05, 2009 at 09:38 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Nashim daasan kalos.

If a woman is prohibited from giving aydus in a beis din, why should she be mashgiach?

Because you are an am ho'oretz, that's why. The whole law that eid echod ne'emon be'isurin, on which the entire kashrus industry rests, comes from the posuk "vesofro loh", in which the Torah trusts a WOMAN.

44

 Dec 05, 2009 at 09:40 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

Except, it is ASSUR according to Rav Moshe Feinstein zatzal....and the RAMBAM. (Check out Igros Moshe 2:44)

If that's how you understood the teshuvah, you need to read it again.

45

 Dec 05, 2009 at 09:46 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

In the conservative shul I go to, there are a few dozen families who are strictly kosher and shomer shabbat, as well as keep taharas mishpacha. The only real difference is that there is no mechitzah. By the way, in the orthodox shul down the road, there are far fewer people in whose houses I would eat---they drive to shul (just park in the lot next door and pretend they're frum). Why do I go to the conservative? It's closer for walking and there are many more children.

It is forbidden to daven in a shul without a mechitzah. R YB Soloveichik held that it was better not to hear shofar at all than to set foot in such a shul to hear it, even if one didn't daven there.

46

 Dec 05, 2009 at 10:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

Aidus in a beis din is specifically limited by the Torah to men only over 13. A woman has complete neemonus over grain and fruit that they are properly maasered and aren't tevel. She has neemonus over the kitchen completely. That includes that she bought kosher food and prepared it correctly, including separation of meat and milk. If a woman can prove that she knows yoreh deah, she can be a mashgicha. The problem is that as a general rule, frum kashrus organizations want to be trusted by all segments of society and therefore won't hire woman if it means losing the chasidic community.

AS mentioned above, neemanus is not the ONLY issue. It is but one issue (not agreed upon by all btw). Look up the teshiva from R' Moshe--he explains very clearly why it is assue for a woman to be a mashgiach--nothing to do with whether or not she is trustworthy.

47

 Dec 05, 2009 at 11:22 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

AS mentioned above, neemanus is not the ONLY issue. It is but one issue (not agreed upon by all btw). Look up the teshiva from R' Moshe--he explains very clearly why it is assue for a woman to be a mashgiach--nothing to do with whether or not she is trustworthy.

No, he doesn't. Read the teshuvah again. It's clear that a mashgiach (as PERHAPS opposed to a rov hamachshir) is NOT in a position of authority. And if hashgocho was a seroroh, it would be subject to yerushah; have you ever heard of a son demanding to inherit his father's position as a mashgiach? For that matter, have you heard of anybody disqualifying a ger for hashgocho? I know of gerim who work in hashgocho and nobody has ever even raised an eyebrow; so why not women? What's the difference?

48

 Dec 05, 2009 at 11:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Milhouse Says:

It is forbidden to daven in a shul without a mechitzah. R YB Soloveichik held that it was better not to hear shofar at all than to set foot in such a shul to hear it, even if one didn't daven there.

There is no issur on davening in a conservative shul when there is no nearby frumme shul with a mechitzah. Rabbi Dr. William Cziensky (spelling?) has written extensively on this point. Rabbi Soleveichik may have said somthing about listening to shofar in a mixed seating shul but did not opine on a regular shabbos minyan.

49

 Dec 06, 2009 at 12:35 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

There is no issur on davening in a conservative shul when there is no nearby frumme shul with a mechitzah. Rabbi Dr. William Cziensky (spelling?) has written extensively on this point. Rabbi Soleveichik may have said somthing about listening to shofar in a mixed seating shul but did not opine on a regular shabbos minyan.

There certainly is an issur. Who is this WiIliam fellow? Anybody ever heard of him? The Rav didn't just "say something", he had ads published in the newspapers every year to publicise his psak din. And if it's forbidden set foot in such a shul even just to hear shofar, even if the alternative is to miss out on the mitzvah altogether, then how can you imagine it would be permitted to daven there?! That's a chomer vekal!

50

 Dec 06, 2009 at 03:21 AM Kashrus Pro Says:

I have worked with a few women mashgichos over the years and some are better than most men of that agency. The reasons not to use women would be for tznius reasons and also because the kitchen language can get colorful at times and men seem to be able to handle that better than women.

51

 Dec 06, 2009 at 06:36 AM Mashgiach. Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

UTTERLY RELIABLE? is that a play on words?

No, but I like your thinking

52

 Dec 06, 2009 at 11:30 AM Cholov Yishmoel Says:

It is amazing that 'jews' will publicly embarrass innocent people over a concert (33 of 'em at least), but won't say anything about how Women are being humiliated by male chauvinistic men (rubashkin pigs). It is high time that jews get their priorities in order before they die and have to answer for their Sins.

53

 Dec 06, 2009 at 11:32 AM alice Says:

The Conservative Movement's charter does not require belief in Torah Misinai. Keeping Mitzvos is irrelevant to your trustworthiness if you identify with a movement that openly denies (at least) one of of the Rambam's thirteen principles of faith. You may be a bigger Mench and on a stricter diet, but you do not have halachic ne'emanus. Besides, the Conservative movement allows hard cheese, wine, and many other products without a hechsher, even for those who are strictly Kosher.

(I have no knowledge of the particular shul and woman in the article)

54

 Dec 06, 2009 at 11:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
Milhouse Says:

If that's how you understood the teshuvah, you need to read it again.

I'll quote for you... R' Moshe was attir it for THAT almana in THAT teshuva " L'Tzaruch Gadol"
Oerhaps it is you who should reread the teshiva or at least read it at all.

55

 Dec 06, 2009 at 11:55 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
Milhouse Says:

No, he doesn't. Read the teshuvah again. It's clear that a mashgiach (as PERHAPS opposed to a rov hamachshir) is NOT in a position of authority. And if hashgocho was a seroroh, it would be subject to yerushah; have you ever heard of a son demanding to inherit his father's position as a mashgiach? For that matter, have you heard of anybody disqualifying a ger for hashgocho? I know of gerim who work in hashgocho and nobody has ever even raised an eyebrow; so why not women? What's the difference?

"It's clear that a mashgiach (as PERHAPS opposed to a rov hamachshir) is NOT in a position of authority"

Really? would you mind quoting where in the teshuva you see such a thing. While you are at it, read Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat, Chelek 2, Siman 40 where he writes about a Rav Hamchshir and compare the two teshuvos.

"have you ever heard of a son demanding to inherit his father's position as a mashgiach?"

Yes. R' Moshe has a teshuva about a son taking iver his father's hechsher actually.

"For that matter, have you heard of anybody disqualifying a ger for hashgocho?"
Check out Igros Moshe Yora Deah Chelek 4, Siman 26 for more on that point

56

 Dec 06, 2009 at 12:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
Milhouse Says:

No, he doesn't. Read the teshuvah again. It's clear that a mashgiach (as PERHAPS opposed to a rov hamachshir) is NOT in a position of authority. And if hashgocho was a seroroh, it would be subject to yerushah; have you ever heard of a son demanding to inherit his father's position as a mashgiach? For that matter, have you heard of anybody disqualifying a ger for hashgocho? I know of gerim who work in hashgocho and nobody has ever even raised an eyebrow; so why not women? What's the difference?

My friend, please read Reb Moshe zatzal's teshuva in the second chelek if choshen mishpat, teshuva Yud-Tes. He restates his psak from the teshuva you are talking about. You have clearly misread it--you should reread it too

57

 Dec 06, 2009 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Kashrus halacha is very clear that a woman has exactly the same status in being trustworthy as a man. A woman is trusted to say that her kitchen is kosher and that her family life is kosher. A woman caterer has the same degree of trust as a man caterer. There is no reason that women can't be mashgichot. The problem isn't halacha; the problem is culture. The chasidic communities won't accept it because of their reluctance to allow women a roll in combined community life other than with other women. The chasidic community for example accepts women therapists to work with female patients. As such, criticism shouldn't be leveled at a particular kashrus organization for allowing women mashgichot. If that hashgocho following accepts her role, then so be it. Nobody is forcing a chasidish hashgocho to hire a woman. If klal yisroel would recognize and accept the fact that Orthodox Judaism is comprised of various cultural levels, we might just merit Moshiach coming. We don't need tolerance. We need UNDERSTANDING each other's various cultural differences and that all of us together comprise klal yisroel and Am HaTorah in the path of the Torah.

so why do the arrogant yeshivishe people in far rockaway blast the concept of the yoetzet halcha, who is trained in taharas hamishpacha halacha, whichshould be bette than calling the rabbi's yenta wife???

58

 Dec 07, 2009 at 03:18 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

I'll quote for you... R' Moshe was attir it for THAT almana in THAT teshuva " L'Tzaruch Gadol"
Oerhaps it is you who should reread the teshiva or at least read it at all.

I read it again. You missed the part where he says that if she's working for the rov hamachshir rather than for the client then it's not a sroro, and there's no problem even according to the Rambam.

59

 Dec 07, 2009 at 03:23 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

"It's clear that a mashgiach (as PERHAPS opposed to a rov hamachshir) is NOT in a position of authority"

Really? would you mind quoting where in the teshuva you see such a thing. While you are at it, read Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat, Chelek 2, Siman 40 where he writes about a Rav Hamchshir and compare the two teshuvos.

"have you ever heard of a son demanding to inherit his father's position as a mashgiach?"

Yes. R' Moshe has a teshuva about a son taking iver his father's hechsher actually.

"For that matter, have you heard of anybody disqualifying a ger for hashgocho?"
Check out Igros Moshe Yora Deah Chelek 4, Siman 26 for more on that point

1. I saw it in that very teshuvah, in the paragraph beginning "avol nir'eh".

2. His father's HECHSHER, or his JOB as a mashgiach for some rov hamachshir?

3. "Mashgiach" there is talking about a mashgiach in a yeshivah, not a mashgiach kashrus! But he says that's not a sroro, and a ger is allowed to be appointed. But if you're claiming that a mashgiach kashrus is a sroro, then a ger could not be hired for it. So have you EVER heard of a ger being turned down for a job in hashgocho? Ever in your life? If you found out that a ger had been hired as a mashgiach would you protest? If not, then why do you protest at this woman being hired? What's the difference between a woman and a ger, for this purpose?

60

 Dec 07, 2009 at 04:32 AM Halacha Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

Ed Achod Neemon B'Issurim. SO yes, women have as good neemenes as men.

What kind of proof is that? A person that is kosher for aidus can be a single aid for issurim. That does not apply to a person that is not kosher li'aidus. A woman is posil liaidus. For example, if person belongs to the modern orthodox denomination that calls itself "non-shomer", previously this was called mumer litaivon, or mumer lidavar echad, but now it's a perfectly acceptable faction among MO, Such a person is posul li'aidus and is not relied upon as a mashgiach for water.

61

 Dec 07, 2009 at 10:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
Milhouse Says:

I read it again. You missed the part where he says that if she's working for the rov hamachshir rather than for the client then it's not a sroro, and there's no problem even according to the Rambam.

Um, you confuse me: Do you know of a mashgiach who ever works for anyone other than a Rav Hamachshir--thats what the mashgiach is by definition. Is that really an honest reading of the teshuva? You are redefining a mashgiach as someone who works directly for the client--a very seriously flawed idea as that would make him beholden to the Baal Habos and not the Hechsher.

62

 Dec 07, 2009 at 12:44 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #61  
Anonymous Says:

Um, you confuse me: Do you know of a mashgiach who ever works for anyone other than a Rav Hamachshir--thats what the mashgiach is by definition. Is that really an honest reading of the teshuva? You are redefining a mashgiach as someone who works directly for the client--a very seriously flawed idea as that would make him beholden to the Baal Habos and not the Hechsher.

That is EXPLICITLY what R Moshe is talking about. I'm not drawing this distinction; R Moshe is. A mashgiach who works for the balabos is a "sroro", which according to the Rambam can't be given to a woman or a ger, but a mashgiach who works for the hechsher is not a "sroro", and there is no shayla even according to the Rambam.

63

 Dec 07, 2009 at 12:47 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #60  
Halacha Says:

What kind of proof is that? A person that is kosher for aidus can be a single aid for issurim. That does not apply to a person that is not kosher li'aidus. A woman is posil liaidus. For example, if person belongs to the modern orthodox denomination that calls itself "non-shomer", previously this was called mumer litaivon, or mumer lidavar echad, but now it's a perfectly acceptable faction among MO, Such a person is posul li'aidus and is not relied upon as a mashgiach for water.

More am horatzus. The whole law that "eid echod ne'emon be'isurin" is learned from "vesofro loh", so if you don't trust a woman then you have no basis for trusting a man either, and you've destroyed the entire kashrus system! But you are wrong. In hilchos eidus one woman is the exact equivalent of one man; the only difference is that a SECOND woman doesn't add anything to the first one -- 100 women is still the same as one man. Wherever one man is accepted, so is any number of women, including one.

64

 Dec 07, 2009 at 02:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
Milhouse Says:

That is EXPLICITLY what R Moshe is talking about. I'm not drawing this distinction; R Moshe is. A mashgiach who works for the balabos is a "sroro", which according to the Rambam can't be given to a woman or a ger, but a mashgiach who works for the hechsher is not a "sroro", and there is no shayla even according to the Rambam.

MILHOUSE: You are mistaken. I believe your confusion is stemming from when Rav Moshe states his svara in which he states that there is serarah because the mashgiach can go "kineged habaal" This does not mean however that he is EMPLOYED by the baal habos--as I mentioned that would be a seriously flawed hechsher--Rather, Rav Moshe is talking that the mashgiach can DO things Kineged Habaal for example, telling him to throw out a shipment of expensive food etc. Rav Moshe does not define a mashgiach working for the baal as seroro--you are making this up to fit your preconceived notions. Again, please read that other teshiva I quoted for you. There, Rav Moshe does state what I am saying "EXPLICITLY". Whay cant you just read the teshuva all the way through? If you do not have the teshiva I can quote it for you. I can also quote you other poskim who read the teshuva the same way. I have yet to find a teshuva with your reading.

65

 Dec 07, 2009 at 03:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #64  
Anonymous Says:

MILHOUSE: You are mistaken. I believe your confusion is stemming from when Rav Moshe states his svara in which he states that there is serarah because the mashgiach can go "kineged habaal" This does not mean however that he is EMPLOYED by the baal habos--as I mentioned that would be a seriously flawed hechsher--Rather, Rav Moshe is talking that the mashgiach can DO things Kineged Habaal for example, telling him to throw out a shipment of expensive food etc. Rav Moshe does not define a mashgiach working for the baal as seroro--you are making this up to fit your preconceived notions. Again, please read that other teshiva I quoted for you. There, Rav Moshe does state what I am saying "EXPLICITLY". Whay cant you just read the teshuva all the way through? If you do not have the teshiva I can quote it for you. I can also quote you other poskim who read the teshuva the same way. I have yet to find a teshuva with your reading.

I can't help you if you can't read simple Hebrew. R Moshe draws this distinction EXPLICITLY in the paragraph beginning "avol nir'eh". The other teshuvos are ALL talking about a rov hamachshir, or a mashgiach who is working for the owner, not for the rov. This is explicit in the teshuvah, you can't get away from it.

And I'm still waiting to hear from someone who has heard of a ger being turned down for a job in hashgocho, or of anyone who has objected to gerim working in kashrus. Remember that there is NO difference between a woman and a ger; if a job is a "sroro" then the Rambam holds that neither one can be hired, and if it's not then both can be hired.

66

 Dec 07, 2009 at 04:19 PM Milhouse Says:

At any event this is all academic, because R Moshe is not the last word in psak. The fact is that some of the most reputable hechsherim DO employ mashgichos, and have done for years. It seems to me that this is consistent with R Moshe's psak, but if you insist that it's not then so be it; they're entitled to disagree with R Moshe.

67

 Dec 07, 2009 at 04:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #65  
Anonymous Says:

I can't help you if you can't read simple Hebrew. R Moshe draws this distinction EXPLICITLY in the paragraph beginning "avol nir'eh". The other teshuvos are ALL talking about a rov hamachshir, or a mashgiach who is working for the owner, not for the rov. This is explicit in the teshuvah, you can't get away from it.

And I'm still waiting to hear from someone who has heard of a ger being turned down for a job in hashgocho, or of anyone who has objected to gerim working in kashrus. Remember that there is NO difference between a woman and a ger; if a job is a "sroro" then the Rambam holds that neither one can be hired, and if it's not then both can be hired.

1. I will quote--in hebrew--let me know if you need a translation.
Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat Chelek Beis Siman 44: "V'hashgacha al kashrus mistaber shehu minui. V'Raya L'zeh M'Kidushing Dad Ayin Vuv...V'chein hu mamish mimona lhashgiach al hakashrus..."
Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat Chelek Beis Siman 19: "V'hinei mitzad tardusi v'gam m'tzad chalushas briusi kashah Li L'haarich. Aval, Ayin b'teshuvasis b'Igros Moshe Chelek Choshen Mishpat Siman Mem-Hay, Shegam Ani Ksavti B'sof hateshuva sh'ica L'MASHGIACH AL KASHRUS DIN SERORO(note Rav Moshe says "mashguach and not "Rav Hamachsihir" like he does in other teshuvos).

2. As far as as a Ger goes, your entire premise--that seroro here for hechsher needs to go hand in hand with seraha by geirus--See Igros Moshe Y.D. 4:26 where Rav Msohe explains the difference.

3. You will likely find an article by Rabbi JD Bleich in his sefer Contemporary Halachos where he disagrees with Rav Moshe's psak that a mashgiach has seroro. According to you, Rabbi Bleich also misread the teshuva and his entire article is meaningless...A little intellectual honesty is in order here.

68

 Dec 07, 2009 at 05:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #66  
Milhouse Says:

At any event this is all academic, because R Moshe is not the last word in psak. The fact is that some of the most reputable hechsherim DO employ mashgichos, and have done for years. It seems to me that this is consistent with R Moshe's psak, but if you insist that it's not then so be it; they're entitled to disagree with R Moshe.

"At any event this is all academic, because R Moshe is not the last word in psak."
Last time I checked, Rav Moshe was the posek hador. Should any
"reputable" hechsherim violate his psak, they should at least being doing so according to a Bar Plugta of Rav Moshe--Do you know of one?
( I also find it highly disrespectful and dishonest of you to just dismiss as "academic" the psak of Rav Moshe when it now has been proven to you that it is not in accord with your world-view. I don't see anything "academic" about this at all. It's Halacha, not some intellectual exercise that you can just throw around arbitrary thoughts willy-nilly)

69

 Dec 07, 2009 at 06:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #66  
Milhouse Says:

At any event this is all academic, because R Moshe is not the last word in psak. The fact is that some of the most reputable hechsherim DO employ mashgichos, and have done for years. It seems to me that this is consistent with R Moshe's psak, but if you insist that it's not then so be it; they're entitled to disagree with R Moshe.

Milhouse. You realize you have gone from saying that R. Moshe "explicitly" said what you were claiming he said, to that R. Moshe is not the "last word in psak". A bit pathetic if you ask me.

70

 Dec 08, 2009 at 01:42 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #69  
Anonymous Says:

Milhouse. You realize you have gone from saying that R. Moshe "explicitly" said what you were claiming he said, to that R. Moshe is not the "last word in psak". A bit pathetic if you ask me.

I haven't "gone" anywhere; I'm not responsible for your lack of English comprehension. R Moshe explicitly said that there was no problem if the mashgicha was employed by the rav hamachshir. It's right there in the teshuvah, which you should read. But the point is moot, because whether R Moshe allowed it or not, many universally recognised hechsherim do allow it, and that's all that matters.

71

 Dec 08, 2009 at 01:48 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #68  
Anonymous Says:

"At any event this is all academic, because R Moshe is not the last word in psak."
Last time I checked, Rav Moshe was the posek hador. Should any
"reputable" hechsherim violate his psak, they should at least being doing so according to a Bar Plugta of Rav Moshe--Do you know of one?
( I also find it highly disrespectful and dishonest of you to just dismiss as "academic" the psak of Rav Moshe when it now has been proven to you that it is not in accord with your world-view. I don't see anything "academic" about this at all. It's Halacha, not some intellectual exercise that you can just throw around arbitrary thoughts willy-nilly)

Reb Moshe never was the "posek hador" and certainly isn't now. He was a major posek, but he was only one among many, and nobody was ever obligated to follow him in every matter. The fact is that hechsherim of impeccable reputation do employ women as mashgichos. Now either this is consistent with R Moshe's psak or it isn't, but either way it is the way they pasken. If you look at the teshuvah you will see that it is consistent, but if it pleases you to pretend that it isn't then go right ahead, but it won't change how the hechsherim pasken.

72

 Dec 08, 2009 at 01:53 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #67  
Anonymous Says:

1. I will quote--in hebrew--let me know if you need a translation.
Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat Chelek Beis Siman 44: "V'hashgacha al kashrus mistaber shehu minui. V'Raya L'zeh M'Kidushing Dad Ayin Vuv...V'chein hu mamish mimona lhashgiach al hakashrus..."
Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat Chelek Beis Siman 19: "V'hinei mitzad tardusi v'gam m'tzad chalushas briusi kashah Li L'haarich. Aval, Ayin b'teshuvasis b'Igros Moshe Chelek Choshen Mishpat Siman Mem-Hay, Shegam Ani Ksavti B'sof hateshuva sh'ica L'MASHGIACH AL KASHRUS DIN SERORO(note Rav Moshe says "mashguach and not "Rav Hamachsihir" like he does in other teshuvos).

2. As far as as a Ger goes, your entire premise--that seroro here for hechsher needs to go hand in hand with seraha by geirus--See Igros Moshe Y.D. 4:26 where Rav Msohe explains the difference.

3. You will likely find an article by Rabbi JD Bleich in his sefer Contemporary Halachos where he disagrees with Rav Moshe's psak that a mashgiach has seroro. According to you, Rabbi Bleich also misread the teshuva and his entire article is meaningless...A little intellectual honesty is in order here.

1. All of those are referring to a rav hamachshir, or a mashgiach who works for the client. They do NOT refer to a mashgiach working for the rov, as Reb Moshe makes crystal clear in the original teshuvah. Maybe you're the one who needs help with translation, if you can't see it.

2. What do you mean "seraha by geirus"? There is no issue of "seraha by geirus", there is the issue that the Rambam holds women and gerim can't be appointed to a "serara" of any kind. There is no distinction and Reb Moshe doesn't draw one, and if you think he does then you are incapable of reading simple Hebrew.

3. I haven't read R Bleich's tshuvah, but given your utter lack of comprehension of R Moshe's tshuvos, I'm not about to accept your characterisation of R Bleich's.

74

 Dec 08, 2009 at 04:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #71  
Milhouse Says:

Reb Moshe never was the "posek hador" and certainly isn't now. He was a major posek, but he was only one among many, and nobody was ever obligated to follow him in every matter. The fact is that hechsherim of impeccable reputation do employ women as mashgichos. Now either this is consistent with R Moshe's psak or it isn't, but either way it is the way they pasken. If you look at the teshuvah you will see that it is consistent, but if it pleases you to pretend that it isn't then go right ahead, but it won't change how the hechsherim pasken.

"Reb Moshe never was the "posek hador""
I think this conversation is over. That is a pathetic, ignorant, and silly statement.

75

 Dec 09, 2009 at 12:34 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #74  
Anonymous Says:

"Reb Moshe never was the "posek hador""
I think this conversation is over. That is a pathetic, ignorant, and silly statement.

It's the truth. There was never a time when all Jews accepted his authority and followed all of his rulings. There were many poskim in his time, all of whom felt free to differ from him when they thought he was wrong, and all of whom had and have substantial followings. It is the height of arrogance to claim that the whole world must bend to his opinions.

See what the Mechaber wrote in Avkas Rochel about the idea that the whole world should have to follow his psokim in the Shulchon Oruch. Now the Mechaber was certainly more accepted in his time than R Moshe was in ours; and yet there were people who refused to follow him, and he stood up for their right to do so. Kol shekein here.

In this case, though, it's not an issue because the hechsherim are in compliance with R Moshe, since the mashgichot work for the agency, not for the client.

76

 Dec 09, 2009 at 10:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #75  
Milhouse Says:

It's the truth. There was never a time when all Jews accepted his authority and followed all of his rulings. There were many poskim in his time, all of whom felt free to differ from him when they thought he was wrong, and all of whom had and have substantial followings. It is the height of arrogance to claim that the whole world must bend to his opinions.

See what the Mechaber wrote in Avkas Rochel about the idea that the whole world should have to follow his psokim in the Shulchon Oruch. Now the Mechaber was certainly more accepted in his time than R Moshe was in ours; and yet there were people who refused to follow him, and he stood up for their right to do so. Kol shekein here.

In this case, though, it's not an issue because the hechsherim are in compliance with R Moshe, since the mashgichot work for the agency, not for the client.

Nobody said the whole world is bound by the psak of the posek hador. That being said, one would have to be a Bar Plugta of Reb Moshe, a bar hachi. This, "well he was a rabbi and so am I" nonsense is just that. This however does not change the fact in any way that he was the posek hador. That does not mean he was the ONLY posek, it does mean he was recognized by all that had actual familiarity with him as a halachic decisor only found in earlier times in jewish history--something which is clear if you thoroughly study his psakim and chidushim. Rav Moshe was perfectly fine with others disagreeing--look at his hakdama to Igros Moshe. How this changes the fact that he was the posek hador is beyond me. Maybe you're just a lot smarter, though apparently you have difficulty with simple svara--which would explain the circle this discussion has been going in, amongst other things. Please get a hold of that Rabbi Bleich article too by the way--you dont have to take my word for it.

77

 Dec 09, 2009 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #75  
Milhouse Says:

It's the truth. There was never a time when all Jews accepted his authority and followed all of his rulings. There were many poskim in his time, all of whom felt free to differ from him when they thought he was wrong, and all of whom had and have substantial followings. It is the height of arrogance to claim that the whole world must bend to his opinions.

See what the Mechaber wrote in Avkas Rochel about the idea that the whole world should have to follow his psokim in the Shulchon Oruch. Now the Mechaber was certainly more accepted in his time than R Moshe was in ours; and yet there were people who refused to follow him, and he stood up for their right to do so. Kol shekein here.

In this case, though, it's not an issue because the hechsherim are in compliance with R Moshe, since the mashgichot work for the agency, not for the client.

As far as you saying that there were "many" who felt free to argue with Reb Moshe--I believe that is an exageration--please provide facts--I can only think of a couple which is far from "many". Certainly not "many" who viewed themselves as an equal/a bar plugta.

78

Sign-in to post a comment

Click here to sign-in.

Scroll Up
Advertisements:
Sell your scrap gold and broken jewelry and earn hard cash sell gold today!