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Madrid, Spain - Conservative Convert to be Buried Outside Jewish Cemetery

Published on: December 14, 2009 08:46 AM
By:  Jpost
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Madrid, Spain - Chief Sephardi Rabbi Shlomo Amar ruled Sunday that a 13-year-old boy who passed away over the weekend in Madrid had to be buried in a separate burial section demarcated by a row of trees because he had converted to Judaism in a Conservative rabbinical court.

Ben-David was buried Sunday in a special section of Madrid’s Jewish cemetery reserved for people whose Jewishness is in question.

Rabbi Moshe Ben-Dahan, the Chief Orthodox Rabbi of Madrid, told The Jerusalem Post that Amar ruled against burying Ben-David in the main part of Madrid’s Jewish cemetery.

“We are an Orthodox community and we never had a situation like this before,” said Ben-Dahan, speaking by phone from Madrid.
“The Rishon Lezion [Amar] told us that this was the Halacha, to bury him in a separate area. He gave us clear directions on this issue.”

According to Halacha, non-Jews or people whose Jewishness has not been confirmed cannot be buried together with Jews.

Conservative practice also forbids the burial of non-Jews with Jews, but Orthodox rabbis do not recognize the validity of a Conservative conversion.

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Rabbi David Golinkin, president and rector of the Conservative Schechter Institute in Jerusalem, ruled that one of the reasons for separating Jews and non-Jews in a cemetery is to combat intermarriage.

Amar was in Madrid for a Hanukka candlelighting ceremony and could not be reached for comment.

Ben-Dahan said that originally the funeral procession was supposed to go through a side gate not used in Jewish funerals. This was because a line of trees cut off the plots where Ben-David was being buried from the rest of the cemetery.
“But in the end we downed a few trees to make it possible to go through the main gate,” he said.

Gai Ben-David, who celebrated his bar mitzva in June, died from a brain tumor.
About a year ago he, his mother, Jessica, and his sister converted to Judaism at the Ahavat Shalom Congregation in Fort Worth, Texas.

Gai’s father, Zohar Ben-David, an Israeli emigre, told the Post via telephone that he had to fight for the right to have the funeral process go through the front gate of the cemetery.

“I was completely opposed to any suggestion that my son is not a Jew,” said Ben-David. “Gai was more Jewish than anyone.
“But eventually I decided not to go on with the objections. It was causing a lot of pain to the people who love Gai. In the end the ruling of the Rishon Lezion was honored. Gai was buried beyond the cemetery in a separate area.”

Ben-David said that members of the Masorti (Conservative) community in Madrid were putting together a petition declaring that all members would be buried in the same area where Gai was buried.
“People told me that when their time comes, they want to buried together with Gai.”

Ben-David, who works as a project manager for a telecommunications company in Madrid, said that he had no intention of attacking anyone in the community.
“Many good people from the Orthodox community have helped me and shown me support. I am just sad about the situation.

“Gai learned in the Jewish school in Madrid. He was an angel and he had so much love. He was a very, very special person, and I hope that he will unite something in the Jewish community.”



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Read Comments (45)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Dec 14, 2009 at 09:52 AM Anonymous Says:

this sounds like a baal shem tov story

2

 Dec 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM Anonymous Says:

This sounds like upstate NY. I remember, my Father Zt"l telling me, remember, a Jew is a Jew wherever you go. You'll still be a Jew. This child is still a Jew, and the community should be ashamed of themselves.

3

 Dec 14, 2009 at 10:10 AM formelly Says:

I see racism and bigotry goes even into death with Jews, worse then antisemitic people

5

 Dec 14, 2009 at 10:40 AM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #3  
formelly Says:

I see racism and bigotry goes even into death with Jews, worse then antisemitic people

Very good point and not exaggerated at all. Now tell us please, how is this worse than anti-semitism?

6

 Dec 14, 2009 at 10:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

This sounds like upstate NY. I remember, my Father Zt"l telling me, remember, a Jew is a Jew wherever you go. You'll still be a Jew. This child is still a Jew, and the community should be ashamed of themselves.

He had a conservative 'conversion'. I am sure he was a wonderful human being and his passing is very sad, but he was not a Jew.

7

 Dec 14, 2009 at 10:57 AM Simple Halocha Says:

"Gai was more Jewish than anyone. "
NO he wasnt! If someone "converts" conservative they might as well have stayed a goy. You cannot argue Halocha and if you do, you are a kofer too.

8

 Dec 14, 2009 at 11:24 AM YitzchokM Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

This sounds like upstate NY. I remember, my Father Zt"l telling me, remember, a Jew is a Jew wherever you go. You'll still be a Jew. This child is still a Jew, and the community should be ashamed of themselves.

a Jew is a Jew wherever you go......unless you're not Kewish to begin with, as it is in this case .

10

 Dec 14, 2009 at 11:28 AM YitzchokM Says:

Reply to #3  
formelly Says:

I see racism and bigotry goes even into death with Jews, worse then antisemitic people

How is this racism? I see the Jewish Law being upheld. I'm very sorry that the father was taken for a fool when he was told by the conservative "rabbi" that his pseudo conversion made him Jewish.

11

 Dec 14, 2009 at 11:36 AM Bruce Says:

I am glad that somebody has the guts to take a stand

12

 Dec 14, 2009 at 11:41 AM reply to 2 & 3 Says:

apparently you missed the story. the cemetery is an (orthodox) Jewish one. accordingly converting thru a conservative "rabbi" is just that, a conservative conversion and not a (orthodox) Jewish one. according to halacha he can't be buried in a orthodox cemetery but is more then welcome in conservative one which is what they did. not sure how that's worse then anti semetisim.

13

 Dec 14, 2009 at 11:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Simple Halocha Says:

"Gai was more Jewish than anyone. "
NO he wasnt! If someone "converts" conservative they might as well have stayed a goy. You cannot argue Halocha and if you do, you are a kofer too.

Clearly you have no clue about Conservative conversions. Do some research before you pass judgment.

BTW, let me pose a question to you. If someone moves into a community and says he is Jewish and conducts himself as a G-d fearing Jew would you doubt him or her? And they die and are buried as a Jew. Then you find out that they had a conversion that you do not approve of ... would you disinter that person? Or would you leave it up to the bais dinshel malah?

14

 Dec 14, 2009 at 12:19 PM formelly Says:

Reply to #5  
FVNMS Says:

Very good point and not exaggerated at all. Now tell us please, how is this worse than anti-semitism?

once your dead you dead they leave you alone

15

 Dec 14, 2009 at 10:39 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

This sounds like upstate NY. I remember, my Father Zt"l telling me, remember, a Jew is a Jew wherever you go. You'll still be a Jew. This child is still a Jew, and the community should be ashamed of themselves.

Ashamed of themselves???? How about accepting a conversion done by a priesst? Accordung to Orthodox Judiasm, the boy is NOT jewish. Finished!

16

 Dec 14, 2009 at 12:25 PM formelly Says:

Reply to #10  
YitzchokM Says:

How is this racism? I see the Jewish Law being upheld. I'm very sorry that the father was taken for a fool when he was told by the conservative "rabbi" that his pseudo conversion made him Jewish.

I would love a conservative cometary not to accept a Orthodox conversion and bury him in a separate area what the Orthodox would say?

17

 Dec 14, 2009 at 12:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
reply to 2 & 3 Says:

apparently you missed the story. the cemetery is an (orthodox) Jewish one. accordingly converting thru a conservative "rabbi" is just that, a conservative conversion and not a (orthodox) Jewish one. according to halacha he can't be buried in a orthodox cemetery but is more then welcome in conservative one which is what they did. not sure how that's worse then anti semetisim.

I never knew cemetaries were divided by denominations or practice. So if there are orthodox cemetaries are their sections for MO? Heimishe? Misnagdim? Chabbad?

18

 Dec 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

I never knew cemetaries were divided by denominations or practice. So if there are orthodox cemetaries are their sections for MO? Heimishe? Misnagdim? Chabbad?

Yup. Live and learn...

19

 Dec 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

I never knew cemetaries were divided by denominations or practice. So if there are orthodox cemetaries are their sections for MO? Heimishe? Misnagdim? Chabbad?

There are sections for Shomer Shabbos Jews. That's about the only distinction in most cemeteries.

20

 Dec 14, 2009 at 12:51 PM David Says:

Well, at least they'll have the solace of not having to spend eternity buried next to people like you.

21

 Dec 14, 2009 at 01:22 PM YitzchokM Says:

Reply to #16  
formelly Says:

I would love a conservative cometary not to accept a Orthodox conversion and bury him in a separate area what the Orthodox would say?

was that a question?

22

 Dec 14, 2009 at 01:23 PM BZM Says:

Reply to #16  
formelly Says:

I would love a conservative cometary not to accept a Orthodox conversion and bury him in a separate area what the Orthodox would say?

Why would someone who is a frum Jew want to be buried in a non-frum cemetery with all of the non-frum people?

23

 Dec 14, 2009 at 02:05 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

Ashamed of themselves???? How about accepting a conversion done by a priesst? Accordung to Orthodox Judiasm, the boy is NOT jewish. Finished!

i am not a rabbi and i believe that lechatchila you are correct
but
b'de'eved he was probably a jew by halachic standards if he did mila and mikva despite a conservative beis din

24

 Dec 14, 2009 at 02:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
formelly Says:

I would love a conservative cometary not to accept a Orthodox conversion and bury him in a separate area what the Orthodox would say?

We would never agree to be buried in a cemetery not under frum auspices. If there were such a cemetery it would be an honor to be buried far away from the baalei aveiro who are buried there (even if many are tinoikois shenishbeu).

25

 Dec 14, 2009 at 02:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
David Says:

Well, at least they'll have the solace of not having to spend eternity buried next to people like you.

No, they will not have the merit of being buried anywhere near me or anyone else who leads a Torah life. I would sooner be buried in a field than near koifrim beikar who identify proudly as such.

26

 Dec 14, 2009 at 02:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
formelly Says:

I see racism and bigotry goes even into death with Jews, worse then antisemitic people

PAH-LEEEEZE..........there is nobody that hates the Jews more than the jews hate each other!!! You discriminate against each other more than ANYONE else does to you as a hole. Get your act together! You agree on NOTHING. You want the world to follow your lead???

27

 Dec 14, 2009 at 03:11 PM Steve Says:

Uhm, its my understanding, Am HaAretz that I am, that the case of children is different. The problem with non-Orthodox conversions is, of course (can I say that?) the extent of the Kabbalat HaMitzvot. But this requires Daat. -- capability -- that a child does not yet have. So... this is an old discussion that has to do with Zachim L'Adam She LoBiphnav (we (Bet Din) will operate for one's benefit even if he isnt around). Can that be used to convert a minor? What if the family isnt so observant, etc.
I forget where it was, but Ger katan is a sugya, thank you, and the mere fact that Kabbalat HaMitzvot may have been lacking here does not necessarily invalidate a conversion , *since it was a child*. I guess you could talk about whether the Beit Din was "kosher" or not, but you know, that is very slippery terroritory.
Some conservative rabbis are more traditional then others...

Now, the Rishon LeTzion does not need to be reminded of this from moi. But to all those who think this is a simple thing... Its not. Not with kids.

What impressed me here was that the father seems to harbor no real animosity.
Sounds like a mentchlik guy. We can all learn from that.

28

 Dec 14, 2009 at 03:37 PM Anonymous Says:

This is the unbelievable tragedy of the conservative and reform non profit social organizations. They should have the decency of NOT performing conversions. Personally I am mispallel that those converts are just lost Yidden who somehow find their way back through these social clubs and are Jewish by birth.

29

 Dec 14, 2009 at 03:55 PM from spain Says:

perhaps the problem with the giur is not if the guer lives and acts as jew..
the problem is who can be rabbi. and how can be member of a beit din...

30

 Dec 14, 2009 at 04:56 PM David Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

No, they will not have the merit of being buried anywhere near me or anyone else who leads a Torah life. I would sooner be buried in a field than near koifrim beikar who identify proudly as such.

You don't know what he believed, do you? I'm amused that you think it's such a merit to be buried near you, and saddened that you'd rather be buried in a field (bimheyra b'yameinu) than near people you suspect might be "koifrim." Your words remind me of the reason the Temple was destroyed... not that you'd care. From what you wrote, I suspect you'd rather destroy the Temple yourself than show up at a korban and have to stand next to someone who didn't have on the right kind of kippah, wouldn't you? Hashem must be very impressed with your devotion.

31

 Dec 14, 2009 at 05:01 PM esther Says:

Reply to #23  
Robert Says:

i am not a rabbi and i believe that lechatchila you are correct
but
b'de'eved he was probably a jew by halachic standards if he did mila and mikva despite a conservative beis din

robert,PLEASE learn the basic dinim of conversion according to halacha.

32

 Dec 14, 2009 at 05:05 PM esther Says:

this is a terible tragedy for the father but this is an old story-if you don't do the conversion the right way in the first place ,you'll have lots of tsuris one way or another down the line.in america it's possible to say a person didn't know the difference but i can't see how that would be possiible in ey.

36

 Dec 14, 2009 at 06:35 PM Texan Says:

Although I didn't know this family, I do know this rabbi of this Conservative congregaton. Unfortuanetly this is stuff he loves to hear. He looks for every opportunity to villify Orthodoxy every chance he gets.
What I have often found interesting is Reform converts are not buried in "his" cemetary here because he does not recognize Reform conversions. Go Figure.

37

 Dec 14, 2009 at 06:53 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

This sounds like upstate NY. I remember, my Father Zt"l telling me, remember, a Jew is a Jew wherever you go. You'll still be a Jew. This child is still a Jew, and the community should be ashamed of themselves.

A Jew is indeed a Jew wherever he goes, but a goy is a goy. How was this boy a Jew? He was born a goy, and was never converted, so he remained a goy. That some conservative parody of a "beis din" gave him a certificate didn't change anything, any more than a certificate from Barack Obama could do. So how could he possibly be buried among Jews?

38

 Dec 15, 2009 at 12:17 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
David Says:

You don't know what he believed, do you? I'm amused that you think it's such a merit to be buried near you, and saddened that you'd rather be buried in a field (bimheyra b'yameinu) than near people you suspect might be "koifrim." Your words remind me of the reason the Temple was destroyed... not that you'd care. From what you wrote, I suspect you'd rather destroy the Temple yourself than show up at a korban and have to stand next to someone who didn't have on the right kind of kippah, wouldn't you? Hashem must be very impressed with your devotion.

It was the likes of the conservative who caused the sinas chinam. Not those who fought against the many weird cults that sprang up at the time of the churban bayis sheini.

39

 Dec 15, 2009 at 01:09 AM Charlie Hall Says:

I met Rabbi Ben-Dahan a year and a half ago on a trip to Madrid. I could tell that he is a total mentsch (can I use a Yiddish word to compliment a Sefardic rabbi?) even though I spoke little Spanish and he does not speak English. I am certain that he handled this situation with as much care and grace as was possible under the circumstances. While sometimes rabbis have to give bad halachic news to people it should always be done with compassion.

40

 Dec 15, 2009 at 01:12 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

Clearly you have no clue about Conservative conversions. Do some research before you pass judgment.

BTW, let me pose a question to you. If someone moves into a community and says he is Jewish and conducts himself as a G-d fearing Jew would you doubt him or her? And they die and are buried as a Jew. Then you find out that they had a conversion that you do not approve of ... would you disinter that person? Or would you leave it up to the bais dinshel malah?

What would research reveal about conservative conversions? What do I need to know about them besides the fact that they are of no effect?

As for your hypothetical, what would YOU do if it turned out that such a person had no conversion at all, and was in fact secretly a Catholic missionary?

41

 Dec 15, 2009 at 01:13 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #16  
formelly Says:

I would love a conservative cometary not to accept a Orthodox conversion and bury him in a separate area what the Orthodox would say?

What Jew would want to be buried in such a cemetery?

42

 Dec 15, 2009 at 01:17 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #23  
Robert Says:

i am not a rabbi and i believe that lechatchila you are correct
but
b'de'eved he was probably a jew by halachic standards if he did mila and mikva despite a conservative beis din

You are wrong. A conversion can only be done by a beis din. A goy who circumcises himself in private, and goes to mikveh in private, and then keeps all the mitzvos with the greatest care, remains a goy. There MUST be a proper beis din, and there MUST be kabolas ol mitzvos; a non-orthodox "conversion" has neither, so it is of no effect at all.

43

 Dec 15, 2009 at 01:24 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #27  
Steve Says:

Uhm, its my understanding, Am HaAretz that I am, that the case of children is different. The problem with non-Orthodox conversions is, of course (can I say that?) the extent of the Kabbalat HaMitzvot. But this requires Daat. -- capability -- that a child does not yet have. So... this is an old discussion that has to do with Zachim L'Adam She LoBiphnav (we (Bet Din) will operate for one's benefit even if he isnt around). Can that be used to convert a minor? What if the family isnt so observant, etc.
I forget where it was, but Ger katan is a sugya, thank you, and the mere fact that Kabbalat HaMitzvot may have been lacking here does not necessarily invalidate a conversion , *since it was a child*. I guess you could talk about whether the Beit Din was "kosher" or not, but you know, that is very slippery terroritory.
Some conservative rabbis are more traditional then others...

Now, the Rishon LeTzion does not need to be reminded of this from moi. But to all those who think this is a simple thing... Its not. Not with kids.

What impressed me here was that the father seems to harbor no real animosity.
Sounds like a mentchlik guy. We can all learn from that.

There is no slippery territory. EVERY conservative "rabbi" believes that the Torah was written by people, not Hashem. EVERY conservative "rabbi" believes that the Torah sheb'al peh was invented by people, not handed down by Moshe. EVERY conservative "rabbi" believes that a unanimous halachic ruling of earlier eras can be overridden by rabbis of a later era, and even by a single local rabbi. EVERY conservative "rabbi" believes that halacha is not binding on every Jew, and that every Jew has the right to choose whether and how much to keep it. Therefore EVERY conservative "rabbi" is posul le'edus, let alone ledayonus, and cannot be part of a beis din.

Nor can there be a kabolas ol mitzvos when the person teaching the "convert", and the beis din themselves, don't believe in that very "ol mitzvos".

44

 Dec 15, 2009 at 04:52 AM abba Says:

sad story. why didnt any one notice the boy had a fake conversion a year ago, a year before his fake bar mitzvah. if the father cared enough , why did his gentile wife and child wait all these years to convert ? didnt it bother this jewish israeli that his wife and son were goyim until a only year ago ? another sad story of intermarriage. not much of a jewish newsworthy article, since the boy wasnt even jewish.

45

 Dec 15, 2009 at 02:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
Milhouse Says:

There is no slippery territory. EVERY conservative "rabbi" believes that the Torah was written by people, not Hashem. EVERY conservative "rabbi" believes that the Torah sheb'al peh was invented by people, not handed down by Moshe. EVERY conservative "rabbi" believes that a unanimous halachic ruling of earlier eras can be overridden by rabbis of a later era, and even by a single local rabbi. EVERY conservative "rabbi" believes that halacha is not binding on every Jew, and that every Jew has the right to choose whether and how much to keep it. Therefore EVERY conservative "rabbi" is posul le'edus, let alone ledayonus, and cannot be part of a beis din.

Nor can there be a kabolas ol mitzvos when the person teaching the "convert", and the beis din themselves, don't believe in that very "ol mitzvos".

I've read my share of Conservative responsa. Trust me, there is nothing upon
which they all agree. (sort of like us, only worse).
As to the second point, my point was that there is plenty room to say that when dealing with a child Kabbalat HaMitzvot is not relevant at all. Its just that at Bar/Bat Mitzvah, they have the option of chugging mitzvot or accepting them. This boy, R'L, passed away in his 13th year.

I once had a good friend in grad school who was a conservative convert. She asked me to ask R Ahron Soloveitchik Z'L, about her status. She was fairly observant in her practice (shabbat, kashrut, etc). . He said that it depended who was on the Beit Din. When I told him the names, he said they were observant enough so that she would have to keep the chumrahs of both being Jewish and non-Jewish. I think he was bothered by what the members of the Beit Din believed, even though in their own lives they were very traditional types. But he wasnt willing to just call her a goy and be done with it. He just couldnt do that.
He told her "You made a good start. Now lets redo it when you are ready and you can continue to grow in mitzvot". He didnt call anyone any names.

46

 Dec 15, 2009 at 05:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

I've read my share of Conservative responsa. Trust me, there is nothing upon
which they all agree. (sort of like us, only worse).
As to the second point, my point was that there is plenty room to say that when dealing with a child Kabbalat HaMitzvot is not relevant at all. Its just that at Bar/Bat Mitzvah, they have the option of chugging mitzvot or accepting them. This boy, R'L, passed away in his 13th year.

I once had a good friend in grad school who was a conservative convert. She asked me to ask R Ahron Soloveitchik Z'L, about her status. She was fairly observant in her practice (shabbat, kashrut, etc). . He said that it depended who was on the Beit Din. When I told him the names, he said they were observant enough so that she would have to keep the chumrahs of both being Jewish and non-Jewish. I think he was bothered by what the members of the Beit Din believed, even though in their own lives they were very traditional types. But he wasnt willing to just call her a goy and be done with it. He just couldnt do that.
He told her "You made a good start. Now lets redo it when you are ready and you can continue to grow in mitzvot". He didnt call anyone any names.

I didn't say they all agreed on everything, but they ALL agree that the Torah was not dictated by Hashem to Moshe. They argue among themselves on where it did come from, and on what--if anything--happened at Har Sinai, but NONE of them believe that the chumash's account is true. They argue among themselves over which unanimous opinions of the Tano'im, Amoro'im, or Rishonim to overrule, but they all agree that they have the right to overrule any opinion they don't like. They argue among themselves how much halacha is relevant today, but they all agree that it's each individual's right not to keep anything at all.

47

 Dec 16, 2009 at 01:29 PM Steve Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

I didn't say they all agreed on everything, but they ALL agree that the Torah was not dictated by Hashem to Moshe. They argue among themselves on where it did come from, and on what--if anything--happened at Har Sinai, but NONE of them believe that the chumash's account is true. They argue among themselves over which unanimous opinions of the Tano'im, Amoro'im, or Rishonim to overrule, but they all agree that they have the right to overrule any opinion they don't like. They argue among themselves how much halacha is relevant today, but they all agree that it's each individual's right not to keep anything at all.

I have to ask this though... For all the people who would pasul Conservative conversions without knowing details... would you do that l'kula as well as l'chumrah? In other words, would you be willing to tell those people who had undergone such a conversion not to bother keeping Shabbat or eating kosher etc because your conversion is worthless anyway? We know that R' Moshe Feinstein Zt"l would go L'kula in mamzerot questions on this, but that may be different since we sort of bend over backwards to find heterim for memzerut. . What about routine run-of-the-mill situations? As I wrote above, R'Ahron Soloveitchink Ztl was not willing to do this in a case I knew about. He told her she had to keep the chumrahs of both. That means he didnt just dismiss their beit din out of hand. I was there. Thats the way it was.

48

 Dec 17, 2009 at 08:02 PM Milhouse Says:

I'd say it lekulah too. A conservative "rabbi" is an apikores, and is posul ledayonus.

R Aharon z"l isn't around to ask him for his reasoning in the case you cited. And without an explanation we can't know what criteria he was using. It is POSSIBLE, and this is only a GUESS, that these rabbis were orthodox people who took jobs at C temples for parnossoh, just like Yonoson ben Gershom ben Me(na)she; that used to be common a long time ago, but has become almost unheard-of in the last few decades. I would think that even such a person is posul ledayonus, because he is voluntarily "mischaber lorosho", but perhaps there is room to argue that even though he's doing the wrong thing it doesn't passel him, at least enough to create a sofek.

49

 Dec 18, 2009 at 11:34 AM Steve Says:

Reply to #48  
Milhouse Says:

I'd say it lekulah too. A conservative "rabbi" is an apikores, and is posul ledayonus.

R Aharon z"l isn't around to ask him for his reasoning in the case you cited. And without an explanation we can't know what criteria he was using. It is POSSIBLE, and this is only a GUESS, that these rabbis were orthodox people who took jobs at C temples for parnossoh, just like Yonoson ben Gershom ben Me(na)she; that used to be common a long time ago, but has become almost unheard-of in the last few decades. I would think that even such a person is posul ledayonus, because he is voluntarily "mischaber lorosho", but perhaps there is room to argue that even though he's doing the wrong thing it doesn't passel him, at least enough to create a sofek.

So let me understand. .. Hypothetically: If someone who had undergone a Conservative conversion would say "Gee, keeping kosher is real expensive.
You know what? I dont think its for me. Can I quit this thing?" You would
say, "Yes, of course. Your conversion wasnt real anyway". Really? Just like that?

50

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