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New York - Editorial About The Current Scandal

Published on: December 21, 2009 08:12 AM
By: VIN News By Rabbi Yair Hoffman
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New York - The enormous Chillul Hashem reported in Sunday’s New York Post  is almost without precedent in thousands of years of Jewish history.

There is a fascinating Ralbag regarding the sin of Gaychazi (Malcham II 5:25) that is most appropriate here. 

Let us recall that Elisha the prophet cured Naaman, the general of Aram of his leprosy.  Naaman wanted to reward Elisha.  Elisha refused to take anything.  Gaychazi waited until Elisha was out of sight and ran quickly to Naaman.  He tactfully implied that Elisha required a talent of silver and two suits of clothing.  Naaman gave him two talents of silver. 

Later, Elisha asked Gaychazi, “Where are you coming from?” Gaychazi answered, “Your servant went neither here nor there.”  The Ralbag remarks that if Gaychazi would have admitted to the theft he would have incurred a lesser punishment.  Elisha would have told him to return the items in a manner that would demonstrate to Naaman that Elisha had not asked for anything.  Instead, Gaychazi added to his sin by not admitting his error.

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It is clear from this Ralbag that when a person has erred, even if he errs grievously – his punishment is lessened if he admits guilt.  Not so with Gaychazi – he confounded his error, by not admitting.  This proved to be the cause of his complete downfall.  Gaychazi was stricken with leprosy forever onward.

Rabbi Yair Hoffman is a mechanech, the author of several halachah seforim , the former morah d’asra of the Young Israel of Patchogue, a well respected Torah figure with close contacts with many Poskim. He may be reached at yairhoffman2@gmail.com



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Read Comments (102)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Dec 21, 2009 at 08:50 AM Anonymous Says:

I'm not suprised for one reason, because if Ehrntrau is his counterpart in London, then this should be self understood.
And I have no idea why all conversions are valid, this group is rotten (with some exeptions, of course).

2

 Dec 21, 2009 at 08:57 AM Here is another editorial Says:

Although I agree with this editorial that telling the truth is better than lying. (massive chiddushim there) We don't pasken Halacha from Nach, only what our Gedolim say. For us to assume that a Yid did something and that we do not know the whole story is totally innapropriate and also against that very same Halacha that this editorial is supposedly upholding. DAAS TORAH was, is, and will always be the final word on all aspects of the lives of anyone who wants to be called a Torah Jew and no editorial can change that by misconstruing a Ralbag for their own political interpretations.

3

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:07 AM Anonymous Says:

The sin of Gaychazi has to do with profiteering, The pattern of corrupt behavior reported in the NYPost is much more serious, as it involves Chilul Hashem and abuse of office. While the woman attempted to put a stop to the behavior by reporting it to a few Rabbis, she will end up by derailing her own conversion, possibly forever. While she's not entirely innocent, she was misled by a high-ranking member of the clergy.

4

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:10 AM Anonymous Says:

What scandal is this editorial referring too?

5

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:20 AM woodmere joe Says:

sounds like the madoff of rabbi's
do as i say not as i do

6

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:23 AM yudel Says:

The EJF passes all of the halachik, etc criterea but it doesn't pass the "smell" test.
Everyone is getting bak'shish big time.

7

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:24 AM Chaya Says:

Anonymous #1, could you please clarify what you mean in your first sentence? Tropper's sin, or his non-admitting of it? If you mean the second, it's not okay that someone could infer it's the first.

8

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

I'm not suprised for one reason, because if Ehrntrau is his counterpart in London, then this should be self understood.
And I have no idea why all conversions are valid, this group is rotten (with some exeptions, of course).

Basically, it isn't the Ger's fault - the Ger is the victim. From a Halachic point of view, the Ger thought they were accepting Torah and Mitzvos sincerely, as defined by the Rabbi who taught them. How should they be expected to know better?

So no question the conversion was done improperly, but that doesn't mean the Ger was insincere, and sincerity of the Ger (as opposed to this poor excuse for a Rabbi) is what decides if the Geirus is valid.

9

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Rav Stern, from Rav Wosners beth din in bnei brak, states the opinion in his sefer 'Gerus Kehilchoso' (Page 56 paragraph 5) that any bais din that accepts even one ger who is not mekabal torah & mitzvos completely is a posul bais din for all gerus, and all their gerus is botol.

He also states any Dayan who takes payment for gerus is posul for gerus.

Also in sefer Teshuvos V'hanhogos vol 1 610 & 611 +612.

10

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:40 AM Dag Says:

"almost without precedent in thousands of years of Jewish history"

Rabbi Hoffman,

We had a similar scandal 5 years ago in the same area of NY!

11

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:54 AM Anonymous Says:

To think, the same Rabbi Tropper who was invalidating conversions for women not covering their hair.

12

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:56 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #2  
Here is another editorial Says:

Although I agree with this editorial that telling the truth is better than lying. (massive chiddushim there) We don't pasken Halacha from Nach, only what our Gedolim say. For us to assume that a Yid did something and that we do not know the whole story is totally innapropriate and also against that very same Halacha that this editorial is supposedly upholding. DAAS TORAH was, is, and will always be the final word on all aspects of the lives of anyone who wants to be called a Torah Jew and no editorial can change that by misconstruing a Ralbag for their own political interpretations.

No, the gemara frequently paskens halachah from Nach. And the power of contemporary rabbis to interpret halachah is limited by our mesorah.

13

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:00 AM he has history Says:

a. its interesting that in 1973 he put out a kuntres on hilchos yichud...

b. we all chose to ignore his indiscretions that led him to leaving his previous wife for his current one (and apparent co-conspirator) .

c. intrestingly, this came around the same time that "gdolim" asered blogs. if not for blogs his resignation would not have registeredf a bleep, and it would have been shoved under the rug, with her being villified - she was smart to record it, because you can hear her being sincere and he "forcing" her to do as he says with the blackmail of gairus

14

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:06 AM Loshon Hora Says:

Well now another reason to blame the internet?
Or could this have happened without the internet?
BTW there are phone calls, but how many of us have spoken that way on the phone here & there we were just lucky no one taped us.
This dirty industry is the oldest trade in the world, & cash only, the Gemorah speaks about a Talmid of Rebbi Akiva, who was able to hold back at last minute,and how he was able to hold back, imagine his conversations up until then would have been taped? the gemorah explains & praises how he held back, same goes for other Tanoim how they held back.
Did this individual actually do anything besides speak? Is there proof of such? I am green on this storry don't go mad at me.
I feel bad for this individual who transgressed the eleventh commandment Thou shalt not get caught.
we should all take atshuva lesson here IMHO.

15

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:12 AM frum but normal Says:

"almost without precedent in thousands of years of Jewish history"
i beg to differ with you,yes it is a big chilul hashem,but how could you compare this to the tremendous chilul hashem,when for the last 8 years two brothers so called leaders of the biggest chasidic sect encompassing hundreds of thousands jews,have been fighting in secular courts over who should be rebbe,and who should control what real estate,and where the N.Y state troopers are busy day and night making arrests when physical violence breaks out.
you see this tropper is a single individual evidently a low life with a big libido who could not control himself,but here we are talking about so called leaders of kllal yisroel who act like thugs and low life criminals,now that is unprecedented chilul hashem

16

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:18 AM Anonymous Says:

This sham of a rabbi has caused severe damage in the Jewish world. He is probably on par with Fink from the Monsey. There has to be a system where no one person is in charge.

17

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:20 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Dag Says:

"almost without precedent in thousands of years of Jewish history"

Rabbi Hoffman,

We had a similar scandal 5 years ago in the same area of NY!

Exactly... The only reason that I'm surprised is that it actually came out...

18

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Now the whole thing with Guma Aguiar will likely come back again....

19

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:28 AM GG Jew Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

I'm not suprised for one reason, because if Ehrntrau is his counterpart in London, then this should be self understood.
And I have no idea why all conversions are valid, this group is rotten (with some exeptions, of course).

Care to explain what you are trying to say over here? What should be 'self-understood'??

20

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:29 AM Chaim Says:

Reply to #13  
he has history Says:

a. its interesting that in 1973 he put out a kuntres on hilchos yichud...

b. we all chose to ignore his indiscretions that led him to leaving his previous wife for his current one (and apparent co-conspirator) .

c. intrestingly, this came around the same time that "gdolim" asered blogs. if not for blogs his resignation would not have registeredf a bleep, and it would have been shoved under the rug, with her being villified - she was smart to record it, because you can hear her being sincere and he "forcing" her to do as he says with the blackmail of gairus

The real fear of blogs is not only the "tumah" but the fact that so many things like this will be expoased - this weakens the control of the rabbinate who for many years buried such things.

21

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Do we know this story is true before condemning Rabbi Leib Tropper? The fact that the NY Post wrote a story about it is insufficient evidence.

22

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:33 AM formelly Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

What scandal is this editorial referring too?

a big orthodox conversation rebbie asked for certain favors (think a while I am sure your will figure it out) from a woman trying to become a Jew

23

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:38 AM formelly Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

What scandal is this editorial referring too?

biggest chillul hashem, I think he has a very short memory. Protecting child molesters and punishing the victim and parents by many yeshivas, beis dins, rebbies, cheridem is just as big and much worse.

In this case it is one rouge rebbie, in the cases of the molesters it is many respected rabbonum, (how they could be is beyond me) and still seems the norm in dealing with the issue. You cannot blame it on a rouge rebbie, and say that is not the norm.

PS what is the biggest chillul hashem in the above case is the action of the beis deain. Their action prove again and again the boys will protect their own, and throw halacha down the drain

24

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:40 AM NeveAliza Says:

I once heard an explanation of the concept קנאים פוגעים בו in the name of the Kotzker Rebbe. Why is this command given to קנאים as opposed to any other group of Jews? The Kozker explains that the קנאים personalities are the types that are usually found in the vicinity of where immoral behavior can be found. Therefore the responsibility of being פוגעים בו are given to them.
I've never seen this in print so I can't verify it. It seems kind of strong even for the Kotzker. But it does explain a personality that worries about a women in slacks and then goes out and finds a mistress. Or the Tznius Patrols who spend their lives looking high and low for פריצות offenders. And high and low some more.
My heart goes out to the scumbag's family.

25

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:40 AM Liepa Says:

'Ain apertropes l'aroyos', period.

26

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:42 AM Donny Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

To think, the same Rabbi Tropper who was invalidating conversions for women not covering their hair.

He's like Spitzer was - being tough on everyone else, while doing what he wanted.

27

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:43 AM formelly Says:

Biggest Chillul Hashem, was not the actions of the rabbie who did the conversions, but the actions of the beais dein and the community for condemning the woman more than they are the rebbiie.

for a yid it makes sense, protect the rebbie, like the child molesters, and condemn the woman and the child who was molested. But for outsider, this is upside down and they do not understand the logic of such bazzar behavior

28

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:51 AM For your interest Says:

12/20/2009
EJF announced that Rabbi Chaim Blum, EJF's liaison to the network of Botei Din in the Torah community, has agreed to serve as interim director of EJF.

Statement by the Eternal Jewish Family
December 20, 2009

EJF announced that Rabbi Chaim Blum, EJF's liaison to the network of Botei Din in the Torah community, has agreed to serve as interim director of EJF.

The organization operates offices in the US, Europe and Israel with international headquarters in Monsey NY. In accepting the position, Rabbi Blum said: "The recent announcement by Rav Tropper that he is resigning his post at EJF is accepted with sadness and regret. The announcement by some of the world's leading Torah authorities that they will take an increased role in the Eternal Jewish Family is testimony of the organization's strength and commitment to its core mission. The many people who benefit from EJF's activities should know that the organization remains fully committed to its important mission, one which has helped thousands of people in their pursuit of a Jewish life."

EJF International is headed by distinguished halachic authorities around the world, including Rav Reuven Feinstein, Chairman of the Halachic Committee (US), Dayan Chanoch Ehrentreu (Europe) and Rav Shmuel Eliezer Stern (Av Bais Din of Rabbi Wosner's Bais Din - Israel).

Statement by Rav Reuven Feinstein, President of Halachic Committee on EJF
December 20, 2009

I hope that Rav Leib Tropper's decision to resign his position at EJF will serve him and his family well. At the same time, I have also agreed to take on a more active role in overseeing all of the halachic nuances of EJF in assuring that all universally accepted conversions are in compliance with the highest standards of halacha. I wish to reassure the community that EJF will continue to be guided by the highest halachic standards under the leadership of the Gedolei Yisroel. It should be noted that EJF has never been, and will never be, involved in the actual geyrus (conversion) of candidates. That function is left solely to the discretion of Botei Din. Our sole mission is to support those botei din in their work. The resignation of Rabbi Tropper in no way casts any cloud over the validity of any conversion performed by a Bais Din affiliated with or supported by EJF. Our role, as per the halachic rulings of Gedolei Haposkim, is to be mekarev the Jewish spouse in an intermarriage while referring the non-Jewish spouse to an independent Bais Din that will offer the geyrus candidate a universally accepted conversion in a case where both agree to a family life of Torah and mitzvos.

29

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:58 AM formelly Says:

Reply to #20  
Chaim Says:

The real fear of blogs is not only the "tumah" but the fact that so many things like this will be expoased - this weakens the control of the rabbinate who for many years buried such things.

exactly,

if one looks at history, the people in power always likes to keep the public in the dark.

Information, is the biggest threat to the people power. whether, the robbonum, the church etc.

30

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:01 AM mt mehdi Says:

Is there anything a Rabbi can do that won't be covered up? Anything?

31

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:04 AM Chaim Says:

Please report on the whole story without holding back on and details. The only reason why Trooper was able to go this far was because all his previous indiscretions were covered up.

Those in the know are not surprised that he and his wife are capable of this.

32

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:04 AM kachka Says:

if the tapes are authentic - i find his lack of menchlichkeit in the way he talks to her appalling as well. these scandals could be avoided if we didn't put unmenshlich people in positions of authority. it is usualy a siman muvhak for trouble. same with fink.

33

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:

biggest chillul Hashem? come on. Nevertheless, it saddens me to my core.

34

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:08 AM Bnei Braquer Says:

Reply to #15  
frum but normal Says:

"almost without precedent in thousands of years of Jewish history"
i beg to differ with you,yes it is a big chilul hashem,but how could you compare this to the tremendous chilul hashem,when for the last 8 years two brothers so called leaders of the biggest chasidic sect encompassing hundreds of thousands jews,have been fighting in secular courts over who should be rebbe,and who should control what real estate,and where the N.Y state troopers are busy day and night making arrests when physical violence breaks out.
you see this tropper is a single individual evidently a low life with a big libido who could not control himself,but here we are talking about so called leaders of kllal yisroel who act like thugs and low life criminals,now that is unprecedented chilul hashem

The leaders of the fighting chassidic community learned how to fight and make machlokes from Ponovitch Yeshiva etc.. Poking umbrellas and puncturing stomachs, would you call that fighting. Clean up the Litvish house then go banging at the chassidishe.

Don't get me wrong both are terribly wrong just dont be an anti semite against certain sects..

35

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

Do we know this story is true before condemning Rabbi Leib Tropper? The fact that the NY Post wrote a story about it is insufficient evidence.

Have you heard the tapes ? (Just google or U_Tube Tropper)
Let's see Troppus L'Aroyos sue the New York Post if this is slander.
Believe me they do their homework before they write these kinds of stories (with pictures and all).
I hear that the NY Times will be coming out with this story soon r'l.
Even the regular "Sh Sh it's loshen horahniks" are deafeningly silent on this one
all they say is there was (nebech) entrapment (which is probably true b'h).
The sooner all the "gedolim" associated with EJF & Kol Yaakov etc. publicly disassociate themselves and shut down those corrupt institutions the better.
They can always be resurrected under DIFFERENT NAMES and with new leaders
that have not been tainted by the treifene $$$$$$$.
Troppus needs to be publicly DEFROCKED and put in cherem asap.

36

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:17 AM Loshon Hora Says:

If she converts will he marry her?
He is so disgraced even worse than the meat man of Monsey. The Meat man had Taavas Money this guy if true has more than on urge, but don't we all have these urges, just no guts & power to fulfil them.Aanyone not emerssed in Torah can fall & fall big. If this is proven this will be a big Humpty Dumpty Rabbi.
Where can he go from here where? What is he qualified to do for a living? Clean toilets?
This Human guilty or not has been destroyed, look how a minute could change a life. Rochov Hazona did exactly the opposite she changed to the good in a minute & married Yehoishuan Bin Nun & became the biggest Rebitzen of all times in Klal yisroel, nobody sinned in the days of Yehoishua Bin nun which was a unique generation.
I feel for this man let us hope he is given guidence on tshuva, his best bet maybe making a public speach like Patterson did, & doing tshuva from now on.
I would hate to see the tabloids print Shamed Rabbi Commits...
Like any other estranged brother we must guide & accept him back in the foold. Vehu rachum Yechaper avon Veloi Yashchis.

37

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:18 AM Judy Lederman Says:

who are we to judge? what a repulsive, revolting, horrible situation. let's all do teshuva and turn to Torah for answers.

38

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:18 AM Anonymous Says:

Who is/was Fink?

39

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:31 AM formelly Says:

Reply to #30  
mt mehdi Says:

Is there anything a Rabbi can do that won't be covered up? Anything?

hopefully not,

why do you want it covered up, so we can live in the dark about their abuses and not do anything about it, since there is nothing about to do?

I see you like to live in fantasy land

40

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:46 AM Confused Says:

I read the article here and was confused, then read the post and now more confused I failed to see the chilul Hashem as anything major, she herself at the end of the editorial said this Rabbi is the problem NOT Rabbis. It hard to know what her reasons were for continuing, why she felt trapped, what he said to seduce her into this position, or who even instigated it.
She is still interested in conversion, that means despite this incident she doesn't feel this Rabbi or these activities were anything at all what Judaism is about. She sent the tapes to Rabbis she felt could deal with the situation appropriately and discreetly and did exactly what should have been done. In her own words she didn't release them to the post and someone else did.
That said this is a chiliul hashem for what this Rabbi did, and the post article pretty much played it as a personal issue of someone in power abusing his power not that because he was a Jew he did these things.

41

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:50 AM Shaya Says:

In 1975 I was a bochur at Ohr Someyach in Yerushaylyim. Leib Tropper was the one Rebbe that I could connect to on a personal level. He was an important role model to me, a 17 year old baal tshuvah. I am not in any way trying to defend or condem him. My personal feelings are nothing compared to others who are suffering in this case, but I am truly heartsick over this. Al taamin b'atzmicha, you know ? Guilty or not, it's a lesson for all of us.

42

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:39 PM BIG Says:

The question is if other converts did not have similar issues with this organization or if this was an isolated case

43

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Loshon Hora Says:

Well now another reason to blame the internet?
Or could this have happened without the internet?
BTW there are phone calls, but how many of us have spoken that way on the phone here & there we were just lucky no one taped us.
This dirty industry is the oldest trade in the world, & cash only, the Gemorah speaks about a Talmid of Rebbi Akiva, who was able to hold back at last minute,and how he was able to hold back, imagine his conversations up until then would have been taped? the gemorah explains & praises how he held back, same goes for other Tanoim how they held back.
Did this individual actually do anything besides speak? Is there proof of such? I am green on this storry don't go mad at me.
I feel bad for this individual who transgressed the eleventh commandment Thou shalt not get caught.
we should all take atshuva lesson here IMHO.

Were the Tanoim you mentioned trying to corner the world-wide market on Geyrus? Did they try to invalidate people's (i.e. geirim's) status post-facto because of relatively minor issues like wearing pants or uncovering hair?

44

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:01 PM Anonymous Says:

In accepting the position, Rabbi Blum said: "The recent announcement by Rav Tropper that he is resigning his post at EJF is accepted with sadness and regret."

What is the matter with these rabbis? With sadness and regret? You would rather he stick around? You rabbis are all cut of the same cloth Tropper was cut from! Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT"L has suffered so much on account of his grandson, and now look what his son is doing to the legacy. I don't care how many millions the rosh yeshiva made from EJF, his actions cannot be justified and mark my words, those who are involved in this mess and chilul hashem will come crashing down one day too. It has to be so, for it is the midda of hashem to pay back and punish midda kinegged midda.

45

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:02 PM Reuvain Says:

EJF set itself up as the arbitrator of Halacha. Acting in a unilateral way. Recently a person who went through a Giyur -after he discovered his mother had converted non halachicly- thirty years ago, an then went to Yeshiva, was told by EJF that "the Giyur may not be acceptable". EJF did not contact the Rabbonim who sat on the Bies Din, who are reputable. They just decided who is good and who is not. Such irresponsible action are very troubling. In the light of the revelations of the last week the questions are even stronger.

46

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
formelly Says:

a big orthodox conversation rebbie asked for certain favors (think a while I am sure your will figure it out) from a woman trying to become a Jew

What many folks here don't seem to get is this: Tropper destroyed many lives over the past several decades. In addition, many GEDOLIM were WARNED that he was up to no-good and they sneeringly ignored all the warnings.

47

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Is it possible that those tapes were doctored?
To me sounds like words were implanted

Many stuff on that tape makes no sense

Maybe the fact that he is at war with guma agier help understand the situation

48

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

Who is/was Fink?

FINKEL - the meat scandal in Monsey. REMEMBER?

49

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:31 PM ChelmiTe Says:

I simply find it impossible to believe this is true, Often when "everyone knows" it turns out that there was no evidence to begin with just rumors. How dare we convinct someone and spread Lashon Hara and destroy someone -certainly not before there is a trial. It is open season on Yidden now and there is no reason to "HANG' someone
before his guilt it clear. It is so easy for someone with an agenda to besmirch and destory someone and say thinkgs about them - that in the end can not be verified.

50

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:38 PM Moish Says:

Did anyone read Just 1 Jew from Feldheim? The author was apparently inspired to return to Judaism by a talk given by this individual. He must have been sincere at one point.

51

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #37  
Judy Lederman Says:

who are we to judge? what a repulsive, revolting, horrible situation. let's all do teshuva and turn to Torah for answers.

Human beings were given seichel in ORDER to make judgements in everyday life. We judge people and decide if we want to be friends with them, we judge daveners and decide if we want to daven with them, we judge neighbors by their behavior, we judge teachers, rebbes, other drivers. Don't be Miss High-Morals and tell us we have no right to judge Tropper. We have EVERY right to judge his behavior and stay away from him and his family. Nebbach on them!

52

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:50 PM Anonymous Says:

We have to stop blaming the rabbonim......
Rav Michael Ben Yaakov Z'L used to say in his world famous mussar shmuzim
"If you wanna make a change you have to start with the man in the mirror".......

53

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:51 PM Yerachmiel Lopin FrumFollies Says:

Follow the money. His dayanus is discredited. But we have to worry about all the dayanim who took money from him, supposedly tzedakkah! Then they all have stood up as speakers at his EJF conventions. I am sure they did not promise anything but certain things dimmed their eyes. Why does Reuven Feinstein say he will now pay more attention to nuances when he headed their committee all along.

As for tshuvah, we all hope for it but no one gives back a hechsher to someone deliberately selling treyfah chickens. If Tropper is sincere he will strive to remove himself from temptation by giving up his kiruv organizations, Yeshivah Kol Yaakov and Horizons. I don't understand why no one is demanding that. If he stays in that position, those that claim he did tshuvah are mocking the hilchos tshuvah. Right now he is still blaming the woman. I suppose he depended on her psak that his behavior was allowed! As for tshuvah, HKB'H decides when it is sincere, but we can often tell when it not sincere.

54

 Dec 21, 2009 at 12:56 PM For your interest Says:

The latest EJF public announcement should, once again, bother us all. It hits all the wrong chords. No contrition, no reflection, no emes. The uncomfortable facts are ignored. This is a spinned press release, not worthy to be issued by a religious organization. The victims, and the public, need to be spoken to. A proper announcement also need not humiliate Rabbi Tropper. He has done much good in his life. He needs a tikkun, and "its never too late" is a Jewish idea.

55

 Dec 21, 2009 at 01:01 PM Anonymous Says:

HE'S A NORMAL HUMAN BEING. HE SUCCUMMBED TO TEMPTATION. SOME PEOPLE STEAL, SOME DO OTHER BAD THINGS. GOSSIP IS NOT THE TORAH WAY. MER GAYIN VAYTER.

56

 Dec 21, 2009 at 01:19 PM Anonymous Says:

So what took VIN until today? And even then you tell us nothing. Shame on VIN. We have to rely on the NY Post for Jewish information? I'm going to FailedMessiah. At least there you get all the stories, dirt or not.

57

 Dec 21, 2009 at 01:21 PM Wise Guy Says:

How ironic that two prominent "Rabbi's" who led the fight against Rabbi Nosson Slifkin have been disgraced.

58

 Dec 21, 2009 at 01:30 PM Anonymous Says:

The gemara says clearly that if you see a talmid chochom sin at night (i.e. immorality) do not think badly about him the next day, as he certainly did teshuva.

If he is guilty, he is surely remorseful, perhaps not based on ahava and yiras Hashem, but like a child who was caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Dayenu, the Gemara says.

It is good that he has been exposed and defrocked, innocent or guilty. There is no reason to villianize him any longer or destroy his future, non-public life. Our community, including some of our leaders, have not adequately internalized this Torah teaching. We have hounded, villianized and destroyed such people long after they have been neutralized. This too is forbidden.

59

 Dec 21, 2009 at 01:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Maybe the gedolim should now review what he did to R' Slivkin?

60

 Dec 21, 2009 at 02:06 PM Anonymous Says:

This is all loshon horah against a big tzadik and talmid chacham. And while some of you feminists may find it upsetting, even if these allegations were true, he did nothing wrong under halacha because this woman wasn't married.

61

 Dec 21, 2009 at 02:10 PM ChelmiTe Says:

Several years ago a Rabbi was accused of impropor behavior by a young women on an airplane. After several years it emerged that the woman's Father lost his case in a Beis Din over which the accused Rabbi presided. Obviously the woman's accussation was intended to get back at the Rabbi. What happened to the belief that someone is innocent until provedn guilty

62

 Dec 21, 2009 at 02:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
Anonymous Says:

Is it possible that those tapes were doctored?
To me sounds like words were implanted

Many stuff on that tape makes no sense

Maybe the fact that he is at war with guma agier help understand the situation

There is a reason why he resigned the same ay - it wasn't because the tape was doctored.

63

 Dec 21, 2009 at 02:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

In accepting the position, Rabbi Blum said: "The recent announcement by Rav Tropper that he is resigning his post at EJF is accepted with sadness and regret."

What is the matter with these rabbis? With sadness and regret? You would rather he stick around? You rabbis are all cut of the same cloth Tropper was cut from! Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT"L has suffered so much on account of his grandson, and now look what his son is doing to the legacy. I don't care how many millions the rosh yeshiva made from EJF, his actions cannot be justified and mark my words, those who are involved in this mess and chilul hashem will come crashing down one day too. It has to be so, for it is the midda of hashem to pay back and punish midda kinegged midda.

Perhaps Rav Reuven's sadness and regret is not the resignation itself, but the entire sad Matzav.

64

 Dec 21, 2009 at 02:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Anonymous Says:

We have to stop blaming the rabbonim......
Rav Michael Ben Yaakov Z'L used to say in his world famous mussar shmuzim
"If you wanna make a change you have to start with the man in the mirror".......

Agreed. Now, for the million dollar question: "How do we, "people in the mirror" make our society more transparent, preventing such things from occurring in the future?"

65

 Dec 21, 2009 at 03:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

Perhaps Rav Reuven's sadness and regret is not the resignation itself, but the entire sad Matzav.

Sadness and regret is for the mothers of these loosers who have defiled the family name and are like blind men in the daytime.

66

 Dec 21, 2009 at 04:21 PM u-got-to-react Says:

#60: are you sick? this massive chillul hashem and blatant misuse of power and all you can come up with is "this woman wasn't married". you ever heard of naval b'rshus hatorah? those who love hashem are supposed to hate evil.

67

 Dec 21, 2009 at 04:37 PM Anonymous Says:

From the transcripts of the tapes: "I’m going to go with you tonight, I will go with you tonight darling, and im yirtzeh hashem, [?] just called me, he hung up on me, I’m going to call him back."

As you can see, he is for sure very frum. He never forgets to say "im yirtzeh Hashem" in every circumstance.

68

 Dec 21, 2009 at 04:50 PM esther Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

The gemara says clearly that if you see a talmid chochom sin at night (i.e. immorality) do not think badly about him the next day, as he certainly did teshuva.

If he is guilty, he is surely remorseful, perhaps not based on ahava and yiras Hashem, but like a child who was caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Dayenu, the Gemara says.

It is good that he has been exposed and defrocked, innocent or guilty. There is no reason to villianize him any longer or destroy his future, non-public life. Our community, including some of our leaders, have not adequately internalized this Torah teaching. We have hounded, villianized and destroyed such people long after they have been neutralized. This too is forbidden.

wish people would stop using the phrase "defrocked". it's a totally catholic concept in regards to priests.

69

 Dec 21, 2009 at 05:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

This is all loshon horah against a big tzadik and talmid chacham. And while some of you feminists may find it upsetting, even if these allegations were true, he did nothing wrong under halacha because this woman wasn't married.

Yeah, but she also wasn't Jewish yet either.

70

 Dec 21, 2009 at 05:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Rav Elya held he was a Rasha Merusha many years ago. He told everyone he could to have nothing to do with him We should have listened to our Gedolim. We didn't.

71

 Dec 21, 2009 at 05:54 PM Verified recordings Says:

Reply to #47  
Anonymous Says:

Is it possible that those tapes were doctored?
To me sounds like words were implanted

Many stuff on that tape makes no sense

Maybe the fact that he is at war with guma agier help understand the situation

this has been verified by numerous sources, the EJF themselves had them verified and found to be true.(they sent it to the same guy that verified the Gilad Shalit recording, received by Israel recently)

besides all this, Tropper has not come out in any type of way to deny it, does he not have a lawyer who can issue a denial to the Jewish media on his behalf? the answer is that he knows it is TRUE!

72

 Dec 21, 2009 at 06:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #66  
u-got-to-react Says:

#60: are you sick? this massive chillul hashem and blatant misuse of power and all you can come up with is "this woman wasn't married". you ever heard of naval b'rshus hatorah? those who love hashem are supposed to hate evil.

What heter is it? Unfortunatly a Boel nochris is reffered to as maifer briso shel Avrohon Avinu,so Avraham Avinu doesn't take him out of Gehenom.By no way am I saying this individual did that, just replying to the one implying that there is nothing wrong.

73

 Dec 21, 2009 at 06:14 PM Fred Says:

Reply to #61  
ChelmiTe Says:

Several years ago a Rabbi was accused of impropor behavior by a young women on an airplane. After several years it emerged that the woman's Father lost his case in a Beis Din over which the accused Rabbi presided. Obviously the woman's accussation was intended to get back at the Rabbi. What happened to the belief that someone is innocent until provedn guilty

Uhm, why is it obvious?

74

 Dec 21, 2009 at 06:14 PM ChelmiTe Says:

Reply to #67  
Anonymous Says:

From the transcripts of the tapes: "I’m going to go with you tonight, I will go with you tonight darling, and im yirtzeh hashem, [?] just called me, he hung up on me, I’m going to call him back."

As you can see, he is for sure very frum. He never forgets to say "im yirtzeh Hashem" in every circumstance.

In case you don't realize it with todays technology it is very easy for a talented kid to doctor tapes and photos that can make it look like anyone is saying anything or is doing anything. Seeing is no longer a reason to believe and that goes for hearing too. A face can be pasted onto anothers body etc!

75

 Dec 21, 2009 at 06:17 PM Fred Says:

Reply to #68  
esther Says:

wish people would stop using the phrase "defrocked". it's a totally catholic concept in regards to priests.

Looks like we need to adopt it.

76

 Dec 21, 2009 at 06:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Elya held he was a Rasha Merusha many years ago. He told everyone he could to have nothing to do with him We should have listened to our Gedolim. We didn't.

Really? So everyone just ignored that all these years? Come on!

If what you're saying is true, no one would have ignored it.

77

 Dec 21, 2009 at 08:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
formelly Says:

Biggest Chillul Hashem, was not the actions of the rabbie who did the conversions, but the actions of the beais dein and the community for condemning the woman more than they are the rebbiie.

for a yid it makes sense, protect the rebbie, like the child molesters, and condemn the woman and the child who was molested. But for outsider, this is upside down and they do not understand the logic of such bazzar behavior

formelly wrote:
"Biggest Chillul Hashem, was not the actions of the rabbie who did the conversions, but the actions of the beais dein and the community for condemning the woman more than they are the rebbiie."
This is entirely incorrect. A bais din postponing its decision is standard operating procedure to test a conversion candidate's sincerity and had nothing whatever to do with Tropper. Personally, I think the way the lady has responded to Tropper's trying tests, has amply demonstrated her sincerity -- but I am not on the BD. The lady is well respected in the community, and attended shul shabbos morning and shalosh seudos. No one in the community said anything or did anything to make her or her children feel unwelcome.
We all owe the lady a big yasher koach for taping her conversations with Tropper when he turned to pimping. If she hadn't, he would still occupy his position at EJF and she would never have been believed. Even with the recordings, people still doubt their authenticity!

78

 Dec 21, 2009 at 08:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #74  
ChelmiTe Says:

In case you don't realize it with todays technology it is very easy for a talented kid to doctor tapes and photos that can make it look like anyone is saying anything or is doing anything. Seeing is no longer a reason to believe and that goes for hearing too. A face can be pasted onto anothers body etc!

doctored tapes??? who are you kidding? It's his voice and his wife's voice. And I heard him spout his "philosophy" before -- just as he says on the tapes -- "unlike women who want monogamy, a man can love more than one woman, a man can want to be with 5 women at once, and it won't detract from the love he has for his wife."

The guy is a sick pervert who is known to prey on vulnerable women. This wasn't the first. And if you didn't go along with him, he'd find your weak points and tear you apart -- "you don't trust me? I think you don't even trust G-d!" What does trusting him have to do with G-d? (except that he has a G-d complex). That is his modus operandi.

Let's get the attorney general to investigate if these are false tapes-- b/c its a federal crime to transport woman across state lines for purposes of prostitution (here it was NY to TX) and its federal crime to use the phone to commit a crime.

For the woman who came forward who will read these comments at some point-- KOL HAKOAVOD! Be strong and keep in mind that there are plenty who know the truth about this shady character and know how courageous you were. Thank you.

79

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:07 PM ChelmiTe Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

doctored tapes??? who are you kidding? It's his voice and his wife's voice. And I heard him spout his "philosophy" before -- just as he says on the tapes -- "unlike women who want monogamy, a man can love more than one woman, a man can want to be with 5 women at once, and it won't detract from the love he has for his wife."

The guy is a sick pervert who is known to prey on vulnerable women. This wasn't the first. And if you didn't go along with him, he'd find your weak points and tear you apart -- "you don't trust me? I think you don't even trust G-d!" What does trusting him have to do with G-d? (except that he has a G-d complex). That is his modus operandi.

Let's get the attorney general to investigate if these are false tapes-- b/c its a federal crime to transport woman across state lines for purposes of prostitution (here it was NY to TX) and its federal crime to use the phone to commit a crime.

For the woman who came forward who will read these comments at some point-- KOL HAKOAVOD! Be strong and keep in mind that there are plenty who know the truth about this shady character and know how courageous you were. Thank you.

Halachah says that if a man comes out of a room with a weapon in their hand and he is covered with blood - and there is a dead body in the room - this is considered circumstantial evidence and according to what we are supposed to
believe - he is not considered guilty. This is considered circumstantial evidence which is not valid according to Halachah. . We should draw our conslutions from
this.

80

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:09 PM me Says:

When will we learn, just a few articles later in the day we see the charges against Mr. Zilber were dropped. We all assumed his guilt because of the "witnesses". And when the truth came out, it turned out to be his disgruntled ex-wife. We must remember that it is assur to believe lashon harah, no matter where you read/ hear it.

81

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:21 PM #70 Says:

Everyone heard it from Rav Elya - everyone. Ask any Brooklyn posaik, my friend.

82

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:51 PM MalachHamovies Says:

Ok. So he spoke with her about sex.. It’s not the worst thing in the world. As long as he didn’t shake her hand. Imagine the scandal that would have caused.

83

 Dec 21, 2009 at 09:57 PM MOSHE Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

doctored tapes??? who are you kidding? It's his voice and his wife's voice. And I heard him spout his "philosophy" before -- just as he says on the tapes -- "unlike women who want monogamy, a man can love more than one woman, a man can want to be with 5 women at once, and it won't detract from the love he has for his wife."

The guy is a sick pervert who is known to prey on vulnerable women. This wasn't the first. And if you didn't go along with him, he'd find your weak points and tear you apart -- "you don't trust me? I think you don't even trust G-d!" What does trusting him have to do with G-d? (except that he has a G-d complex). That is his modus operandi.

Let's get the attorney general to investigate if these are false tapes-- b/c its a federal crime to transport woman across state lines for purposes of prostitution (here it was NY to TX) and its federal crime to use the phone to commit a crime.

For the woman who came forward who will read these comments at some point-- KOL HAKOAVOD! Be strong and keep in mind that there are plenty who know the truth about this shady character and know how courageous you were. Thank you.

I agree with 74 "doctored tapes”, the best proof the only name mentioned other than the Rabbis wife is satmar guy.

True tilmedi chacmim and satmar are despised by the same people


84

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:17 PM harvey finkel Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

Do we know this story is true before condemning Rabbi Leib Tropper? The fact that the NY Post wrote a story about it is insufficient evidence.

of course the story is true, if not y with Rabvi Tropper have resigned a week before it came out.

85

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:22 PM harvey finkel Says:

Reply to #2  
Here is another editorial Says:

Although I agree with this editorial that telling the truth is better than lying. (massive chiddushim there) We don't pasken Halacha from Nach, only what our Gedolim say. For us to assume that a Yid did something and that we do not know the whole story is totally innapropriate and also against that very same Halacha that this editorial is supposedly upholding. DAAS TORAH was, is, and will always be the final word on all aspects of the lives of anyone who wants to be called a Torah Jew and no editorial can change that by misconstruing a Ralbag for their own political interpretations.

we all heard the voice mail that has Rabbi Tropper, committing wrong, what else do u need , pictures.

86

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:30 PM joe from woodmere Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

This is all loshon horah against a big tzadik and talmid chacham. And while some of you feminists may find it upsetting, even if these allegations were true, he did nothing wrong under halacha because this woman wasn't married.

you must be joking
it is not funny
spitzer lost the governor's job
tiger woods lost his endorsements
this man lost the respect of sensible people

87

 Dec 21, 2009 at 10:34 PM joe from woodmere Says:

Reply to #79  
ChelmiTe Says:

Halachah says that if a man comes out of a room with a weapon in their hand and he is covered with blood - and there is a dead body in the room - this is considered circumstantial evidence and according to what we are supposed to
believe - he is not considered guilty. This is considered circumstantial evidence which is not valid according to Halachah. . We should draw our conslutions from
this.

he may not be convicted
he is still guilty

88

 Dec 21, 2009 at 11:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
Anonymous Says:

There is a reason why he resigned the same ay - it wasn't because the tape was doctored.

but he could have been set up from guma

89

 Dec 22, 2009 at 12:29 AM shkweeze you Says:

He didn't commit any sins. Maybe his wife did but he didn't actualy do anything against hallacha. Maybe he has a perverted mind and shouldn't be a rabbi but halachacly he didn't do any isur

90

 Dec 22, 2009 at 01:46 AM yetzer h Says:

MY friends, somme ppl do not understand :Yetzer Hara is very big in a Talmidei chachomim . Look at you Yetzer Hara in different areas, and multiply it by hundreds of times: this is the YHara of a Godol
This is not a justification, cv, but it is a reality
IOW, anyone of us did worse things than this, if you compare the stenght of our YH with his,IF NOT, just look somme of the comments
The Rabbi will do teshuvah, and it is going to be fine,it is going to be a big lesson for all of us . Moshiach should come inmediately

91

 Dec 22, 2009 at 08:31 AM Courtesy Flush Says:

Reply to #68  
esther Says:

wish people would stop using the phrase "defrocked". it's a totally catholic concept in regards to priests.

It's not totally a Catholic concept. Let's consult Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: de·frock
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)dē-ˈfräk\
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1581
1 : to deprive (as a priest) of the right to exercise the functions of office
2 : to remove from a position of honor or privilege

The second definition works fine here.

92

 Dec 22, 2009 at 08:38 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #79  
ChelmiTe Says:

Halachah says that if a man comes out of a room with a weapon in their hand and he is covered with blood - and there is a dead body in the room - this is considered circumstantial evidence and according to what we are supposed to
believe - he is not considered guilty. This is considered circumstantial evidence which is not valid according to Halachah. . We should draw our conslutions from
this.

You are mis-translating the word "chayov" as "guilty". Chayov means "resposible" or "answerable". You are correct that circumstantial evidence is not sufficient for a death sentence in Beis Din but no one, from the dyanim to the man on the street, would consider such a man as you describe as "not guilty". He's obviously guilty as hell. We just can't convict him of capital murder under the evidentiary ruls of Beis Din. His punishment will come directly from Heaven.

93

 Dec 21, 2009 at 01:08 PM henoch Says:

Reply to #40  
Confused Says:

I read the article here and was confused, then read the post and now more confused I failed to see the chilul Hashem as anything major, she herself at the end of the editorial said this Rabbi is the problem NOT Rabbis. It hard to know what her reasons were for continuing, why she felt trapped, what he said to seduce her into this position, or who even instigated it.
She is still interested in conversion, that means despite this incident she doesn't feel this Rabbi or these activities were anything at all what Judaism is about. She sent the tapes to Rabbis she felt could deal with the situation appropriately and discreetly and did exactly what should have been done. In her own words she didn't release them to the post and someone else did.
That said this is a chiliul hashem for what this Rabbi did, and the post article pretty much played it as a personal issue of someone in power abusing his power not that because he was a Jew he did these things.

As usual the crime of what seems to be a coverup may yet surpass the original crime. Why haven't we heard anything from the board of this organization? These enablers need to answer what they knew and why they were and still are silent.

94

 Dec 22, 2009 at 09:16 AM Incredulous! Says:

Reply to #90  
yetzer h Says:

MY friends, somme ppl do not understand :Yetzer Hara is very big in a Talmidei chachomim . Look at you Yetzer Hara in different areas, and multiply it by hundreds of times: this is the YHara of a Godol
This is not a justification, cv, but it is a reality
IOW, anyone of us did worse things than this, if you compare the stenght of our YH with his,IF NOT, just look somme of the comments
The Rabbi will do teshuvah, and it is going to be fine,it is going to be a big lesson for all of us . Moshiach should come inmediately

You think this is a GODOL with a big yetzer harah? He can't be a godol because he has this double life! All our Tzaddikim were above reproach in all aspects of their life- not just the beis medrash.
Tropper is sick and should publicly admit his illness and go to a rehab program, many of which are available today. And there are SA meetings exclusively for frum men or women to help address these problems.

95

 Dec 22, 2009 at 10:49 AM to #94 Says:

he did not have a double life
if you listen to the tapes, you can realize that it was like his "new toy".
He could not stop speaking with the girl.
Someone who is involved in these kind of things, does not utilize this language that RT used. He looks like a baby talking and talking with not stop, with anxiety
this is obvious a set up. All of the sudden shows up a pretty blond woman who wants to convert and go and seduce RT, telling him about her sex experiences,etc
when you walk in the street you look to the ground, you never look at women, why? the YH is very powerful! here comes a girl that seduces the rabbi,
For men to be attracted to women, it is not a sickness, it is the nature, 100% normal
this is ovious a set up. Some investigation will shed light
But I think that the best is to leave everything quite, let the Rabbi and those ppl involved do teshuva

96

 Dec 22, 2009 at 11:11 AM yesod yoseff Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

This is all loshon horah against a big tzadik and talmid chacham. And while some of you feminists may find it upsetting, even if these allegations were true, he did nothing wrong under halacha because this woman wasn't married.

absolute sheker; this is the sort of permisive thinking that justifies his actions.
1. Chilel Hashem
2. the avairah or er and onen

97

 Dec 22, 2009 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
#70 Says:

Everyone heard it from Rav Elya - everyone. Ask any Brooklyn posaik, my friend.

So why didn't Reb Elya Ber and other Gedolom heed R' Elya's warning?

98

 Dec 22, 2009 at 11:19 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #89  
shkweeze you Says:

He didn't commit any sins. Maybe his wife did but he didn't actualy do anything against hallacha. Maybe he has a perverted mind and shouldn't be a rabbi but halachacly he didn't do any isur

I'm not even going to comment on your comment, just your name. That is HILARIOUS!

99

 Dec 22, 2009 at 01:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Rabbi H:

Shouldn't the lesson that you should be seeking to impart to the readership be that we should be careful with Shmiras Haloshon and not be mekabel every piece of aggregious accusations that hit the blogosphere. Why presume guilt at this point, and isn't doing so assur? Shouldn't there be some form of Due Process here at some level? Admitting guilt is indeed a virtue, but only when you are guilty. Are you advocating that someone should simply "fall on his sword" because he's been maligned in the press? Is this not a very dangerous message? Please Clarify.

100

 Dec 22, 2009 at 05:02 PM Fred Says:

Reply to #79  
ChelmiTe Says:

Halachah says that if a man comes out of a room with a weapon in their hand and he is covered with blood - and there is a dead body in the room - this is considered circumstantial evidence and according to what we are supposed to
believe - he is not considered guilty. This is considered circumstantial evidence which is not valid according to Halachah. . We should draw our conslutions from
this.

This is half the story. The other half is that the King had his own methods of taking care of people the Beit Din couldnt quite nail.
This is all very interesting, but in the real world, tapes dont lie. You need to grow up and leave the world of Frum Denial. Back here on earth, there are low lifes who need to be identified before they abuse others.

101

 Dec 22, 2009 at 07:44 PM ChelmiTe Says:

Reply to #100  
Fred Says:

This is half the story. The other half is that the King had his own methods of taking care of people the Beit Din couldnt quite nail.
This is all very interesting, but in the real world, tapes dont lie. You need to grow up and leave the world of Frum Denial. Back here on earth, there are low lifes who need to be identified before they abuse others.

Even if there might be instances when a Beis Din may be abused
there is nothing superior to our system of judicial review, EVEN a DEMOCTRATIC system. We have been brain washed with the idea that there is equality before the law but in reality some people are much more equal then others!
Certainly if someone is guilty they should pay for their crime but a
Beis Din that sentenced even one person to death in 70 years was considered cruel. If you've ever played with digital imaging
you would understand that there is a real possibility to constructing phoney evidence. I simply believe that it is unncessary to declare someone quilty and shoot and destroy them until there is a systemetic honest investigation,
has been a serious dependable investigation into the matter.

102

 Dec 22, 2009 at 08:16 PM golani Says:

"almost without precedent in thousands of years of Jewish history!?" Are you kidding? What a silly and immature comment. I could name hundreds of instances of chilul hashem that dwarf this by comparison. Let's start with all the child molesters and they are many. Then we'll move on to the embezzlers and scammers. C'mon, what this bum did wasn't nice but it wasn't illegal.

103

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