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New York - Rabbi Yair Hoffman Appears on Dov Hikind Radio Show to Defend Position [audio replay]

Published on: February 20, 2010 08:23 PM
Last updated on: February 21, 2010 01:32 AM
By: VIN News Staff
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New York - Rabbi Yair Hoffman, an Orthodox educator, author of several Seforim  on Halachah and former Morah Desarah of a Shul in Long Island, is a well respected Torah figure with close contacts with many leading halachic authorities.

He is also a frequent contributor to VIN News and Five Towns Jewish Times .

Most recently, Rabbi Hoffman’s editorial on the Martin Grossman execution became one of the most read article on VIN News, with over 32,000 unique readers on the day it was posted, with nearly 400 comments.

The editorial, which reminds readers of Grossman’s guilt and that Florida Gov. Charlie Crist was virtually guaranteed to not change his mind on the eve of an election, generated a fierce firestorm in the Orthodox community online and in the brick-and-mortar shuls and study halls over the past several days.

Now, Rabbi Hoffman will be interviewed on the popular Dov Hikind show tonight, explaining his position.

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The show starts at 11PM You can listen on WMCA 570 AM, or online at talkinlinecommunicatins.com 

**UPDATE** 1:30 AM below is the audio replay.



More of today's headlines

New York - A new law forces any New Yorker who was born in Puerto Rico to get a new birth certificate after July 1, due to the rising wave of identity theft among people... Jerusalem - The website Jerusalem.com  launched an iPhone application which enables people from around the world and of any religion to record a 45 second prayer...

 

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Read Comments (146)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Feb 20, 2010 at 09:17 PM a reader Says:

rabbi hoffman, chazak v'ematz!! true leaders are few and far between in the frum community nowadays.
the outpouring of support from the frum commnity during the grossman episode illustrates perfectly the perversion and moral bankruptcy that (sadly) has become what 21st century yiddishkeit is all about. when the color of one's shirt, the opaqueness of one's stockings, the number of times one's salad is inspected via electron microscope, etc., is how a society judges 'frumkeit', it is really no surprise that a cold blooded killer (who wore tefillin, to be sure) can be held up as a hero, saint, martyr, etc.
after all, the frumme' askonim and gedolim ('daas torah') have been working overtime for years now to paint any and every jew accused/convicted of any crime (no matter how heinous) as a hero/martyr/victim. (off the top of my head: the rubashkin family, chasidic boys in japan, meah shearim mother, meah shearim father(s), rioters in meah shearim, etc. etc.).
i've known for years now that the frum velt has gone crazy, but i prayed that somehow things would turn around. now i worry that we may be past the point of no return.

2

 Feb 20, 2010 at 09:25 PM harvey finkel Says:

Rabbi Hoffman was totally correct in his approach to this Grossman error and to the ridiculous move by the phony Jews, who decided that Grossman was a Super Jew.

3

 Feb 20, 2010 at 09:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
a reader Says:

rabbi hoffman, chazak v'ematz!! true leaders are few and far between in the frum community nowadays.
the outpouring of support from the frum commnity during the grossman episode illustrates perfectly the perversion and moral bankruptcy that (sadly) has become what 21st century yiddishkeit is all about. when the color of one's shirt, the opaqueness of one's stockings, the number of times one's salad is inspected via electron microscope, etc., is how a society judges 'frumkeit', it is really no surprise that a cold blooded killer (who wore tefillin, to be sure) can be held up as a hero, saint, martyr, etc.
after all, the frumme' askonim and gedolim ('daas torah') have been working overtime for years now to paint any and every jew accused/convicted of any crime (no matter how heinous) as a hero/martyr/victim. (off the top of my head: the rubashkin family, chasidic boys in japan, meah shearim mother, meah shearim father(s), rioters in meah shearim, etc. etc.).
i've known for years now that the frum velt has gone crazy, but i prayed that somehow things would turn around. now i worry that we may be past the point of no return.

Wow.That about sums it up. I couldn't have said it any better.

4

 Feb 20, 2010 at 09:36 PM Anonymous Says:

And I happen to be proud of that frum community that u so nicely demonize! When a fellow jew is in a problam, yes, we will try to help! Did u ever heard of "pidyon shviem"?! And it don't matter for what!

5

 Feb 20, 2010 at 09:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
a reader Says:

rabbi hoffman, chazak v'ematz!! true leaders are few and far between in the frum community nowadays.
the outpouring of support from the frum commnity during the grossman episode illustrates perfectly the perversion and moral bankruptcy that (sadly) has become what 21st century yiddishkeit is all about. when the color of one's shirt, the opaqueness of one's stockings, the number of times one's salad is inspected via electron microscope, etc., is how a society judges 'frumkeit', it is really no surprise that a cold blooded killer (who wore tefillin, to be sure) can be held up as a hero, saint, martyr, etc.
after all, the frumme' askonim and gedolim ('daas torah') have been working overtime for years now to paint any and every jew accused/convicted of any crime (no matter how heinous) as a hero/martyr/victim. (off the top of my head: the rubashkin family, chasidic boys in japan, meah shearim mother, meah shearim father(s), rioters in meah shearim, etc. etc.).
i've known for years now that the frum velt has gone crazy, but i prayed that somehow things would turn around. now i worry that we may be past the point of no return.

I cry as I read your post. Some times I wonder whether jews in america are still american jews or jewish americans... The judical system is something we must abide by as stated in Gemara and Halacha but we can't place that over the Torah . According to the torah in order to be executed we need real witnesses and Hasrah etc. Charlie crist may have been right since he has to do whats right to all americans but we are allowed and obligated to do everything possible to save a brother especially one who has shown remorse.

Think about what Happened in crown heights many years ago when an innocent driver knocked down an african american boy and the whole african-american community took to the streets in violent riots . Was it justified ? definitely not ! But the politicians did they're best to calm them down because it was considered NORMAL to outcry on a lost brother . Have we fallen to such a low that crying out without violence for a brother is considered morally unethical ? Or perhaps we have become more american than jewish and we understand the judical system better than the need of a brother in pain ?

6

 Feb 20, 2010 at 09:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Am I the only VIN reader that disagrees with rabbi hoffman?
When a jews life is at hand, then we do everything in our power to help save his life... That's a major kiddush hashem...
I work very closely with goyim and they actually filled out the petition to save him.
It was a major major kiddush hashem.
Goyim respect very much that a Jew will do anything to help another jew.
I'm not embarressed of it and I will never take it back.
He's a jew, and jews do what we have to do to save another jew.
Do we as jews think that he doesn't deserve to get punished??? I would hope your answer would be "as jews, Were too close to the case to have an objective view, so ask someone else."

I love jews

7

 Feb 20, 2010 at 09:45 PM obamanation Says:

To 1&2: You are a bunch of anti samites we go according to the torah and only that!!! according to the torah there needs to be 2 aidim to have some one killed. and yes the holocha is that when a jew killes a goy he is not chayiv misa wheather u ike it or not, if u think differant yell at god not at me. there for according to our torah this man should of bein alive. I know u don't like to hear this but to bad!!!

8

 Feb 20, 2010 at 09:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

I cry as I read your post. Some times I wonder whether jews in america are still american jews or jewish americans... The judical system is something we must abide by as stated in Gemara and Halacha but we can't place that over the Torah . According to the torah in order to be executed we need real witnesses and Hasrah etc. Charlie crist may have been right since he has to do whats right to all americans but we are allowed and obligated to do everything possible to save a brother especially one who has shown remorse.

Think about what Happened in crown heights many years ago when an innocent driver knocked down an african american boy and the whole african-american community took to the streets in violent riots . Was it justified ? definitely not ! But the politicians did they're best to calm them down because it was considered NORMAL to outcry on a lost brother . Have we fallen to such a low that crying out without violence for a brother is considered morally unethical ? Or perhaps we have become more american than jewish and we understand the judical system better than the need of a brother in pain ?

the Torah also forbids hisgarus b'umos - we are in galus and have to be very careful - Rabbi Hoffman is at least as right as the other rabbis - eilu v'eilu (personally i feel closer to rabbi hoffman's position, even though i did call the governor and don't regret it)

9

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:01 PM obamanation Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

the Torah also forbids hisgarus b'umos - we are in galus and have to be very careful - Rabbi Hoffman is at least as right as the other rabbis - eilu v'eilu (personally i feel closer to rabbi hoffman's position, even though i did call the governor and don't regret it)

u call this higaris b'imos??? so why dosnt the torah say that bizman hazeh the halacha of pidin shvuyi dosnt apply. all gedolim did this all the time. I happen to like this rabbi hoffman but does that mean he is right 100% of the time?? the fact remains that for piyin shvuyin every thing needs to be done even though we know that Mr Crist would not change his mind.

10

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:02 PM Anonymous Says:

there are a bunch of other jewish inamtes on death row all over america. google this one: "chayim ben sholom"

11

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
a reader Says:

rabbi hoffman, chazak v'ematz!! true leaders are few and far between in the frum community nowadays.
the outpouring of support from the frum commnity during the grossman episode illustrates perfectly the perversion and moral bankruptcy that (sadly) has become what 21st century yiddishkeit is all about. when the color of one's shirt, the opaqueness of one's stockings, the number of times one's salad is inspected via electron microscope, etc., is how a society judges 'frumkeit', it is really no surprise that a cold blooded killer (who wore tefillin, to be sure) can be held up as a hero, saint, martyr, etc.
after all, the frumme' askonim and gedolim ('daas torah') have been working overtime for years now to paint any and every jew accused/convicted of any crime (no matter how heinous) as a hero/martyr/victim. (off the top of my head: the rubashkin family, chasidic boys in japan, meah shearim mother, meah shearim father(s), rioters in meah shearim, etc. etc.).
i've known for years now that the frum velt has gone crazy, but i prayed that somehow things would turn around. now i worry that we may be past the point of no return.

You sound like some anti semite are you jewish at all............ What if you or someone you know would be involved in any of these kind of cases you would probably have a total diffrent view on it thanks.Think before you comment.

12

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:04 PM Poster #5 Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

the Torah also forbids hisgarus b'umos - we are in galus and have to be very careful - Rabbi Hoffman is at least as right as the other rabbis - eilu v'eilu (personally i feel closer to rabbi hoffman's position, even though i did call the governor and don't regret it)

Why is this considered hisgarus Beimos ? Why dont you read comment #6 and see for yourself that goyim recpect us for our deep commitment to another jew. Its not like we promote such behavior. Its safe to assume that jews have the least murderers among them but still we are capable of understanding repentance and remorse. If the Pope himself took his time to make a call to the Governor isn't that a direct contradiction to Rabbi Hoffman's Words ?

13

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:05 PM professor Says:

I have a pragmatic problem with Hoffman's statements. I think it is bad policy to make nice to Crist and say that the Jewish agencies didn't expect a positive response. When a petition is made, all parties involved have to demonstrate that they mean what they say. This means that that they have to back it up and stick to their guns. Now that the execution was carried out, Crist should know that there will be political repercussions for his inaction. I personally understand Crist's position, as much as it saddens me. But If a petition is made by so many Jewish agencies, there must be teeth to it.

14

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:05 PM Anonymous Says:

did you forget that they also stabbed a young tourist (Reb Yankel Rosenbaum H Y D) what was the murderer punishment?

15

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:06 PM a reader Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

I cry as I read your post. Some times I wonder whether jews in america are still american jews or jewish americans... The judical system is something we must abide by as stated in Gemara and Halacha but we can't place that over the Torah . According to the torah in order to be executed we need real witnesses and Hasrah etc. Charlie crist may have been right since he has to do whats right to all americans but we are allowed and obligated to do everything possible to save a brother especially one who has shown remorse.

Think about what Happened in crown heights many years ago when an innocent driver knocked down an african american boy and the whole african-american community took to the streets in violent riots . Was it justified ? definitely not ! But the politicians did they're best to calm them down because it was considered NORMAL to outcry on a lost brother . Have we fallen to such a low that crying out without violence for a brother is considered morally unethical ? Or perhaps we have become more american than jewish and we understand the judical system better than the need of a brother in pain ?

according to you, the reason why we should be proud that 50,000 yiddin were mobilized (using inaccurate information) to beg for rachmones for martin grossman is simply because he is a yid.
if so, please explain to me why these same jewish organizations are not mobilizing the same 50,000 yiddin to pressure the authorities to save our hoy (and INNOCENT) jewish children from the molesters and abusers in our yeshivos, mosdos, mikvaos, etc.
and please explain to me why these organizations are not applying the same political pressure with regard to gilad shalit. and perhaps even jonathan pollard.

what a sick world we live in where yiddeshe' askonim/daas torah will pull out all the stops for a cold blooded killer, while at the same time looking the other way when our very own children are being abused/molested and those who put their lives on the line to protect yidden/eretz yisrael are similarly ignored.

16

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:08 PM kecher Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

And I happen to be proud of that frum community that u so nicely demonize! When a fellow jew is in a problam, yes, we will try to help! Did u ever heard of "pidyon shviem"?! And it don't matter for what!

Enryone agrees that efforts are apropiate the fact is he went to jail for visicouly killing someone he is a bal teshuva that's why governer crist received 49,000 messages but he's not a hero tzadik he's a yid who needed help from klal yirael

17

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Pidyon shevuim is not meant for innocent people. It is for guilty people incarcerated by goyim. Grossman would be a good Pidon Shevuim case, if there had been a chance that his life could be saved. We are after all in gualus, and dina demalchusa dina. To be told that our emails, phone calls and letters have a chance of saving, when in fact it does not. Not to be told the full story - that all excuses where unsuccessfully argued in court - countless times - over 25 years, just made our united stand that much weaker.
Sure we are obligated to voice our collective distress, but please, lets use it where we stand a chance ot success.
I don't understand why Agudah took such a sand on Grossman, and I don;t see much from them on Rubashkin.

18

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:13 PM Anonymous Says:

I cannot speak for how the outcry was perceived, but I hope it will be seen as a kiddush Hashem. No one was vindicating Grossman, and there was no protest to his conviction. The reaction was to the execution. I joined that outcry, despite feeling that it was foregone. The above was my reason. I did not feel that I was party to interference with the secular judicial process. I also do not believe that the secular government needs to follow the rigors of halacha, making the above discussions about witnesses and hasra'ah moot points.

19

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:34 PM CaringJew Says:

Reply to #1  
a reader Says:

rabbi hoffman, chazak v'ematz!! true leaders are few and far between in the frum community nowadays.
the outpouring of support from the frum commnity during the grossman episode illustrates perfectly the perversion and moral bankruptcy that (sadly) has become what 21st century yiddishkeit is all about. when the color of one's shirt, the opaqueness of one's stockings, the number of times one's salad is inspected via electron microscope, etc., is how a society judges 'frumkeit', it is really no surprise that a cold blooded killer (who wore tefillin, to be sure) can be held up as a hero, saint, martyr, etc.
after all, the frumme' askonim and gedolim ('daas torah') have been working overtime for years now to paint any and every jew accused/convicted of any crime (no matter how heinous) as a hero/martyr/victim. (off the top of my head: the rubashkin family, chasidic boys in japan, meah shearim mother, meah shearim father(s), rioters in meah shearim, etc. etc.).
i've known for years now that the frum velt has gone crazy, but i prayed that somehow things would turn around. now i worry that we may be past the point of no return.

Hey relax with your words!!

Noone ever called Martin Grossman A'H a "hero". Noone! And you have the audacity to challenge his wearing of Tefillin. Is there no such thing as Teshuva in the Torah as you know it(you seem quite distant from it,I know)?!? Yes,he committed a heineous crime which every gadol agreed was true. You are right that frumkeit is full of perversion and moral bakruptcy but I'd opt to say it lies more with those that wear the right clothing and look frum on the outside but rent porn and do every other abomination in the Torah. The greatest moral bankruptcy in our generation is that there are too many people like you that have a total disregard for our greatest gedolim. I agree that there is way too much emphasis put on "exteriors" and how and what we DO instead of what's in our hearts but how that comes to the argument surrounding Martin Grossman's execution is beyond me. I won't go into the defenses as to why there was reason not to execute him or at the least to put a "stay" on his execution since you are well aware of what that is. I don't envy one that is willing to speak on a yiddishe neshoma that is now in the Oilam H'Emes.

20

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

Pidyon shevuim is not meant for innocent people. It is for guilty people incarcerated by goyim. Grossman would be a good Pidon Shevuim case, if there had been a chance that his life could be saved. We are after all in gualus, and dina demalchusa dina. To be told that our emails, phone calls and letters have a chance of saving, when in fact it does not. Not to be told the full story - that all excuses where unsuccessfully argued in court - countless times - over 25 years, just made our united stand that much weaker.
Sure we are obligated to voice our collective distress, but please, lets use it where we stand a chance ot success.
I don't understand why Agudah took such a sand on Grossman, and I don;t see much from them on Rubashkin.

You gotta do what the Eibishter requires, whether you will be successful or not.

21

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:37 PM bobov chossid Says:

While rabbi hoffman might make sense as of common sense
Its sure not the torah view to try to save any jew even who did wrong from the hands of the goyim

And to the posters who talk about hisgarus bumos there no such jewish law against hisgrus bumos its only in agudos maharshu as midresh and satmarer rebbe zl made maybe a halacha out of it

22

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:35 PM poster #5 Says:

Reply to #15  
a reader Says:

according to you, the reason why we should be proud that 50,000 yiddin were mobilized (using inaccurate information) to beg for rachmones for martin grossman is simply because he is a yid.
if so, please explain to me why these same jewish organizations are not mobilizing the same 50,000 yiddin to pressure the authorities to save our hoy (and INNOCENT) jewish children from the molesters and abusers in our yeshivos, mosdos, mikvaos, etc.
and please explain to me why these organizations are not applying the same political pressure with regard to gilad shalit. and perhaps even jonathan pollard.

what a sick world we live in where yiddeshe' askonim/daas torah will pull out all the stops for a cold blooded killer, while at the same time looking the other way when our very own children are being abused/molested and those who put their lives on the line to protect yidden/eretz yisrael are similarly ignored.

First of all I personally picked up a phone several times on behalf of jonathan pollard( I doubt that u did the same because you are wat to busy with our terrible Rabbanim etc...) And as far as Gilad Shalit exactly who can I call Gaza perhaps one of their mercifull leaders ?!

I also assume you have never contacted a Rav yourself regarding molseters etc Because I know for a fact that they lose alot of sleep on these matter ( while u probably listen to those phony hotlines every night... )

And yes as long as a Rav forbids u to go to the authorities on issues of molesting u are forbidden ! So says the Torah !

Go talk to a Rav yourself it helps u might see a different side to them they are not so terrible .

23

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
a reader Says:

rabbi hoffman, chazak v'ematz!! true leaders are few and far between in the frum community nowadays.
the outpouring of support from the frum commnity during the grossman episode illustrates perfectly the perversion and moral bankruptcy that (sadly) has become what 21st century yiddishkeit is all about. when the color of one's shirt, the opaqueness of one's stockings, the number of times one's salad is inspected via electron microscope, etc., is how a society judges 'frumkeit', it is really no surprise that a cold blooded killer (who wore tefillin, to be sure) can be held up as a hero, saint, martyr, etc.
after all, the frumme' askonim and gedolim ('daas torah') have been working overtime for years now to paint any and every jew accused/convicted of any crime (no matter how heinous) as a hero/martyr/victim. (off the top of my head: the rubashkin family, chasidic boys in japan, meah shearim mother, meah shearim father(s), rioters in meah shearim, etc. etc.).
i've known for years now that the frum velt has gone crazy, but i prayed that somehow things would turn around. now i worry that we may be past the point of no return.

Part 2

Did you grow up the way Martin Grossman A'H did?? Did you also have an abusive father and barely got to know your father because he died at a very young age? Maybe you would have turned to the things Martin turned to-drugs....Do you have the same IQ that he did? Were you ever diagnosed with any mental incompetence as Martin A'H was?? And finally,Are you Jewish and if the answer is yes-I believe you should check your lineage.

24

 Feb 20, 2010 at 10:40 PM Elki Says:

A. I never understood the need of a Jew, let alone a rabbi, to come out and defame efforts of others greater and more in the know than he is.
B. Somehow the facts get lost after one or two sentences. The Rabbis who pleaded on behave of Grossman, were asking for one thing - not to put him to death. Period. Bringing up his heinous crime as a rebuke to those protestors of the death sentence is ludicrous. No one but no one is denying the monstrous murder he committed and the need for him to stay in prison for life. Many people fight the death penalty.
C. Constitutionally Florida is not exactly on the up and up. Due to Grossman's very limited intelligence and the non-premeditation of the murder are reasons judicially not to put a man to death.

The truth gets so lost that most posters don't even remember the original statements. READ, READ, READ, and understand exactly what the Rabbis tried to do and why. As one poster wrote, painting Grossman as knight....is so ludicrous. Where did that idea show up in the news

25

 Feb 20, 2010 at 11:05 PM Anonymous Says:

We tried to save him because he was jewish, not because he wore tefillin, he wrote in a letter that he wore tefillin 15 times in his life.

26

 Feb 20, 2010 at 11:23 PM Anonymous Says:

I just have a question to the good rabbi. He makes a point that why should we call if we know that there was zero chance anyway, which would insinuate that if there was a chance then the right thing to do was to call. However don't we have a concept that even if the sword is on ones neck he still should not give up hope. therefore we should still daven and do our hishtadlus. ( i address this question only to the belivers who also belive in the concept of tshuva unlike what seems to be most posters)

27

 Feb 20, 2010 at 11:27 PM Anonymous Says:

We should all not regret what we did. We must stand tough and back up what we say. We should gather 100 thousand letters and warn any politician who does not support tax breaks for yeshiva parents and carrys his personal liberal agenda of gay marriages will be outvoted in a wink. This should be fowarded to Schumer and his ilk. We have so many chareidi Jews today we can outvote every liberal skunk who opposes our frum agenda. We can have government sponsored yeshivas and we would not have to struggle at all. We are fools that we dont take advantage of our G-d given opportunities to empower ourselves. We need to unite and do this here and in Israel as well. Chareidi power number one.

28

 Feb 20, 2010 at 11:41 PM joe Says:

People ?!? no one asked the gov to keep him alive or released ? all we asked is to postpone for 60 days so we can get more investigations and lawyers...

29

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

Part 2

Did you grow up the way Martin Grossman A'H did?? Did you also have an abusive father and barely got to know your father because he died at a very young age? Maybe you would have turned to the things Martin turned to-drugs....Do you have the same IQ that he did? Were you ever diagnosed with any mental incompetence as Martin A'H was?? And finally,Are you Jewish and if the answer is yes-I believe you should check your lineage.

Did you ever hear of achreis?
When the Rav stands behind the decision,
then the psak is valid, too often they try
to be politically correct. To the detriment
of the tzibbur. Ask Rav Belsky?

30

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
obamanation Says:

u call this higaris b'imos??? so why dosnt the torah say that bizman hazeh the halacha of pidin shvuyi dosnt apply. all gedolim did this all the time. I happen to like this rabbi hoffman but does that mean he is right 100% of the time?? the fact remains that for piyin shvuyin every thing needs to be done even though we know that Mr Crist would not change his mind.

Satmar Rabbi TZ"L use to say "We have to do, not accomplish". We have the responsibilty to do the utmost and Hashem will do the rest.

31

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

We should all not regret what we did. We must stand tough and back up what we say. We should gather 100 thousand letters and warn any politician who does not support tax breaks for yeshiva parents and carrys his personal liberal agenda of gay marriages will be outvoted in a wink. This should be fowarded to Schumer and his ilk. We have so many chareidi Jews today we can outvote every liberal skunk who opposes our frum agenda. We can have government sponsored yeshivas and we would not have to struggle at all. We are fools that we dont take advantage of our G-d given opportunities to empower ourselves. We need to unite and do this here and in Israel as well. Chareidi power number one.

Of course, the "liberal agenda" would've meant that Martin Grossman would have received life in prison with no possibility of parole instead of being executed, which is presumably what everyone was hoping to achieve with the 50,000 letters to Crist.

32

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:10 AM torah Says:

Grossman was not mechuyev misah and we had to do what we can and yes we have to do for schalit. and rabbi hofman go back to (a jewish) school.

33

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:12 AM bobov chossid Says:

I was very disappointed of rabbi hoffmans comments on the dov hikind show
He was trying to say that its a sofek if this martin grossman did teshuva like this lubavitch shaliach is a liar
Not to mention his try to make it look like yossi gestetner blames the government of antisemitizem that dov didn't let rabbi hoffman do that

34

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
poster #5 Says:

First of all I personally picked up a phone several times on behalf of jonathan pollard( I doubt that u did the same because you are wat to busy with our terrible Rabbanim etc...) And as far as Gilad Shalit exactly who can I call Gaza perhaps one of their mercifull leaders ?!

I also assume you have never contacted a Rav yourself regarding molseters etc Because I know for a fact that they lose alot of sleep on these matter ( while u probably listen to those phony hotlines every night... )

And yes as long as a Rav forbids u to go to the authorities on issues of molesting u are forbidden ! So says the Torah !

Go talk to a Rav yourself it helps u might see a different side to them they are not so terrible .

And agudah is heavily involved in getting pollard released.

35

 Feb 21, 2010 at 01:24 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

And agudah is heavily involved in getting pollard released.

agudah doesn't do a damn thing for pollard! yes they put out ONCE a kol koreh that the national council of young israel begged them to do! the only organization doing for pollard is the Young Israel, and its movement of hundreds of shuls throughout the world! Rabbi Pesach Lerner visits him multiple times a year, and has taken it as his personal achrayis jonathan's well being!

36

 Feb 21, 2010 at 01:29 AM Asher yatzar Says:

Reply to #15  
a reader Says:

according to you, the reason why we should be proud that 50,000 yiddin were mobilized (using inaccurate information) to beg for rachmones for martin grossman is simply because he is a yid.
if so, please explain to me why these same jewish organizations are not mobilizing the same 50,000 yiddin to pressure the authorities to save our hoy (and INNOCENT) jewish children from the molesters and abusers in our yeshivos, mosdos, mikvaos, etc.
and please explain to me why these organizations are not applying the same political pressure with regard to gilad shalit. and perhaps even jonathan pollard.

what a sick world we live in where yiddeshe' askonim/daas torah will pull out all the stops for a cold blooded killer, while at the same time looking the other way when our very own children are being abused/molested and those who put their lives on the line to protect yidden/eretz yisrael are similarly ignored.

With all hashgochos that are being given from water , starwberries to shaitlach it is time to decide who is daas torah.

Hashgochos to people that are givien daas torah status should be reviewed once a year.

Happy Purim

37

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Anonymous Says:

agudah doesn't do a damn thing for pollard! yes they put out ONCE a kol koreh that the national council of young israel begged them to do! the only organization doing for pollard is the Young Israel, and its movement of hundreds of shuls throughout the world! Rabbi Pesach Lerner visits him multiple times a year, and has taken it as his personal achrayis jonathan's well being!

And just in case you didn't know, Pollard is not on death row.

38

 Feb 21, 2010 at 03:40 AM Don't delude yourselves Says:

While tens of the thousands of phone calls coming in may seem very impressive, they don't mean as much as you may think.

Keep in mind the following - 1) there are many more phones around today than years ago, including many cellular phones in hands of everyone and his brother. So generating so many phone calls is not as great a feat as in the past. 2) Some of the calls may have been the same people calling more than once. 3) With caller i.d. and other technology, it can be revealed where calls are coming from. If the governor's office sees that 85% of the calls to his FL office are from NY, from people who cannot vote in his state, they will not be as concerned as if they were from FL residents.4) After a while they will realize/figure out where the calls are coming from. They may say think and say, hey these NY Jews/Hassidics don't live here (in FL), who are they to tell us what to do? Screw them! 5) On the contrary, trying to pressure could backfire. The Gov. could say, hey, I am standing up for FL, against certain people from NY who want to tell us what to do.

39

 Feb 21, 2010 at 05:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
a reader Says:

rabbi hoffman, chazak v'ematz!! true leaders are few and far between in the frum community nowadays.
the outpouring of support from the frum commnity during the grossman episode illustrates perfectly the perversion and moral bankruptcy that (sadly) has become what 21st century yiddishkeit is all about. when the color of one's shirt, the opaqueness of one's stockings, the number of times one's salad is inspected via electron microscope, etc., is how a society judges 'frumkeit', it is really no surprise that a cold blooded killer (who wore tefillin, to be sure) can be held up as a hero, saint, martyr, etc.
after all, the frumme' askonim and gedolim ('daas torah') have been working overtime for years now to paint any and every jew accused/convicted of any crime (no matter how heinous) as a hero/martyr/victim. (off the top of my head: the rubashkin family, chasidic boys in japan, meah shearim mother, meah shearim father(s), rioters in meah shearim, etc. etc.).
i've known for years now that the frum velt has gone crazy, but i prayed that somehow things would turn around. now i worry that we may be past the point of no return.

I agree with your denunciation of the extremists who defended a murderer.
Those fools are disruptive and do not represent the community.

40

 Feb 21, 2010 at 06:08 AM Rebbe Says:

Reply to #7  
obamanation Says:

To 1&2: You are a bunch of anti samites we go according to the torah and only that!!! according to the torah there needs to be 2 aidim to have some one killed. and yes the holocha is that when a jew killes a goy he is not chayiv misa wheather u ike it or not, if u think differant yell at god not at me. there for according to our torah this man should of bein alive. I know u don't like to hear this but to bad!!!

Yingele, he is chayev meesah! (Rambam Hilchos Rohtzayakh 1:1 among many
other sources.) Go back to khayder.

41

 Feb 21, 2010 at 06:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:

I cannot speak for how the outcry was perceived, but I hope it will be seen as a kiddush Hashem. No one was vindicating Grossman, and there was no protest to his conviction. The reaction was to the execution. I joined that outcry, despite feeling that it was foregone. The above was my reason. I did not feel that I was party to interference with the secular judicial process. I also do not believe that the secular government needs to follow the rigors of halacha, making the above discussions about witnesses and hasra'ah moot points.

"I hope it will be seen as a kiddush Hashem..." Unfortunately because of the
extremism of many supporters of clemency in this case a Chillul Hashem was
produced. "No one was vindicating Grossman..." I'll take your word that you did not have such a misguided intention. But there were many who actually did express
such silliness. For example on Dov Hikind's radio program one of his guests,
an individual debating Rabbi Hoffman even suggested that Grossman did not
kll the officer. Then that individual tried to make a distinction between a cop killer
and someone who killed a cop.

Isn't that terrible? Rabbi Hoffman correctly answered that it is
still murder a horrific crime---to paraphrase.

Such rationalizations in support of violent sociopaths like
Grossman are unacceptable.

42

 Feb 21, 2010 at 06:43 AM Rebbe Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

Part 2

Did you grow up the way Martin Grossman A'H did?? Did you also have an abusive father and barely got to know your father because he died at a very young age? Maybe you would have turned to the things Martin turned to-drugs....Do you have the same IQ that he did? Were you ever diagnosed with any mental incompetence as Martin A'H was?? And finally,Are you Jewish and if the answer is yes-I believe you should check your lineage.

Stop defending that wicked murderer. You harm your cause. Trust me; such
hateful rhetoric alienates decent people. Your ultra-liberal coddling of criminals
is reprehensible.

43

 Feb 21, 2010 at 06:52 AM rachmonas Says:

I petioned governor Christ "not" to free Mr. Grossman, but to let him live and spend the rest of his life in jail. All the major Jewish Organization did the same as myself. We should be proud that so many Jews came together to try and avoid an execution that is still banned in many states and against our religious beliefs. Yasher Koach!

44

 Feb 21, 2010 at 06:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
poster #5 Says:

First of all I personally picked up a phone several times on behalf of jonathan pollard( I doubt that u did the same because you are wat to busy with our terrible Rabbanim etc...) And as far as Gilad Shalit exactly who can I call Gaza perhaps one of their mercifull leaders ?!

I also assume you have never contacted a Rav yourself regarding molseters etc Because I know for a fact that they lose alot of sleep on these matter ( while u probably listen to those phony hotlines every night... )

And yes as long as a Rav forbids u to go to the authorities on issues of molesting u are forbidden ! So says the Torah !

Go talk to a Rav yourself it helps u might see a different side to them they are not so terrible .

You're wrong. The authorites must be contacted immediately to stop crime.

45

 Feb 21, 2010 at 07:17 AM Rebbe Says:

Reply to #33  
bobov chossid Says:

I was very disappointed of rabbi hoffmans comments on the dov hikind show
He was trying to say that its a sofek if this martin grossman did teshuva like this lubavitch shaliach is a liar
Not to mention his try to make it look like yossi gestetner blames the government of antisemitizem that dov didn't let rabbi hoffman do that

"....concept that even if sword is on one's neck he still should not give up hope?"

Answer: On the assumption that you believe in the concept of teshuva, note that
one should indeed repent in the hope that the attempted teshuva will be effective.
Certainly davening and doing our hishtadlus are praiseworthy. Many good people
had the best intentions.

Nonetheless, all this does not justify misguided rationalizations of the vicious crime committed or condemnation of the necessary punishment which was
properly imposed. Baruch Dayan Emes.

46

 Feb 21, 2010 at 08:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
torah Says:

Grossman was not mechuyev misah and we had to do what we can and yes we have to do for schalit. and rabbi hofman go back to (a jewish) school.

Grossman was chayev meesah for shfeekhus domin. You don't even have a high
school diploma, peasant. dee rehts vee ah shaygetz. Show derech eretz to Rabbi Hoffman.

47

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

Grossman was chayev meesah for shfeekhus domin. You don't even have a high
school diploma, peasant. dee rehts vee ah shaygetz. Show derech eretz to Rabbi Hoffman.

Yes, byidei shmayim,not byede adam.

48

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Rabbi hoffman really went over board.They are looking for truth and justice!he better look at cases where the prosecutor bdavka witheld information.

49

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:20 AM Anonymous Says:

I listened to your position and would like to reply as follows
your argument that there was little chance of overturning the verdict - does not the gennora say in brochos that even of a sword is by your neck one shoulld not give up hope
We can not overlook how grave and eckeldick the crime was as you said, however, Mr grossman was but 19 at the time with a lot of extenuating circumstances at the time all we were asking was that he not be put to death
As for your argument to apply our kochos to other causes I do not see how this cause detracts from others
respectfully I take issue with you position

50

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:22 AM Involved Says:

It is amazing how many people can play armchair quarterback after the fact. Many of the comments below are all over the place without a true basis. I dont question Rabbi Hoffmans knowledge of torah. I do however question the timming of his op-ed. Why After the fact? especially if as he said on the radio show he took the time to go thru the evidence and call the psychiatrist who evaluated Mr Grossman. What I see is rather a pathetic attemt to make a statement which is just generating comments from many foolish people who if this was their child in jail they would be running around and saying please save my child, and that includes Rabbi Hoffman.

It is correct to mention that there are many other causes that we should fight for! why was this case so different and why were we fighting to save this "murderers life" is another question.

We learn the concept of gilgulim, we may learn them and sometimes do not understand them. Is it possible that his neshoma had to come down to this world and suffer in jail and be executed? (thats not in anyway justifying the murder of Officer Parks). Is it possible that we had to unify and try to help, Could this be the rotzon hashem?
Continued

51

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:36 AM Involved Says:

continued
It is interesting that for every comment made regarding torah law, Rabbi Hoffman had a Taz or other torah commentary so say the opposite. Well that goes in line with the concept of shivim ponim latorah. Therefore the question is what are the true facts and why was this case different. Furthermore, is it maybe possible that this was the rotzon hashem that hashem wanted everyone to come together and try to save this soul. After all, this case was very different then most murder cases and most death row cases. additionally the sentencing was allowed only because he was on probation for a previous crime of breaking and entering.

1) Fact, - there was an accomplice who started the hitting of officer parks.
2) even if you disagree with the phsycologists analasys since he did work for the deffendants you still have to agree that he would have to have a real basis to prove the 77 IQ. He cant just pull it out of the hat.
3) Fact - the only reason that he was elegible for the death penalty was a technicallity of the fact that he was on probation, ad by the way under FL law that is inadmissible today in FL court.
continued

52

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:45 AM involved Says:

Continued
4) the testimony to the murder was based on a) Taylor who later committed suicide and a witness who heard about it from Taylor and wanted an lighter sentance and later addmitted he lied.

So the question then is why wasnt this brought up in court thru the 11 appeals as Rabbi hoffman so eloquently pointed out? the answer is it was but the "public deffender did not argue the case right! We were too late in getting a good legal team in place after Jan 12th. Additionally I dont know if Rabbi Hoffman is a lawyer but he should know that once evidence is addmited you cannot argue it again even if it was done incorrectly.

Next point
To say that politically we damaged the jewsih community is a fals statement and even Rabbi Hoffman said on the show it was based on his ligic and opinion. I can say from a position of authority I was involved in this case and that is factually not true. Additionally he said that "usually elected officials do not commute sentences during their terms". That is factually not true go look up president bush he did commute a few sentences most of them for real petty crimes, Additionally when it comes to capital punishment its annually.
continued

53

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:52 AM involved Says:

Continued
Since he spoke from a possition of an informed source I will tell you that what was being offered to The Gov of FL and the pressure that was on him from major FL donors who I can list but would rather not on this blog "al pi derech hateva"should have gotten him to agree to the 60 day stay of execution as was requested and not the commuting as was mentioned". Additionally it was guaranteed to him that there would be no backlash from the Rubio Camp.
So to state that it was a lost cause from the beggining is absolutely false. After all we just finished reading a few weeks ago about the makos. And Moshe went to Paroh every time to ask to let my people go. however hashem had a different plan. We do have to try and to not try would leave the question did we fail according to the halachic opinions that Rabbi hoffman disagrees with!

continued

54

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:57 AM involved Says:

Next- Family Harrasment
Its nice that as he said on the Radio show he got his facts from a Gainesville newspaper and a blog. Why didnt rabbi hoffman call the Parks family like he did the phsychiatrist? so that he can find out the truth instead of stating that we have "mishugoyim" in the jewish world. It so hapens that the family was not contacted by many people and what they were contacted about was to set up a fund in momory of Peggy Parks so that her memory should not be forgotten additionaly the head of the episcopalean church did this to convince them that this would be a better way to bring closure rather than to see Mr Grossman die. I dont believe thats considered harrassment.

Point here is, Please get all the facts straight and then play armchair quarterback. and to all those who called Mr Grossman a cold blooded murdered, yes according to what you read in the papers that is true, however not always what you read is the truth.

I was at the burial in Liberty and a gentelman came and said I want to say a few words. He mentioned that he met someone in shul who asked him about grossman and can we save him
continued

55

 Feb 21, 2010 at 10:05 AM involved Says:

Continued
So he asked him what is your shaychus with Grossman? the man answere I know him for 20 yrs. he said how do you know him? he said he is in charge of a certain tzedaka and 20 yrs ago they sent him and all the jewish prisoners jewish callendars and Grossman sent back tzedaka from his prison account! and for the past 20 years he has been doing this. The question to be asked to all those who called him a bloody murdered who is chayav missa without realy knowing the truth! how many murderers do you know on Death row that send tzedaka? I dont know of any.

I took time in writting this because yes although grossman was not a tzaddik and in no way was he physically a good person when he was 19 yrs old. he did have a neshoma tehorah and for his neshoma alone we had to do what we had to do. after all the true average on death row in FL is 14 yrs not like Rabbi Hoffman said of 20 or more, however it does say Tzedoka tatzil mimoves. He must have had some merit. I for one do not want to be the judge I will let hashem decide that and I ask all of you that had strong comments to remmeber what I wrote on Rosh Hashana when you say mi yichyeh and mi yomus

Happy Purim

56

 Feb 21, 2010 at 10:00 AM FBF Says:

One of the issues is the aftermath. The large levaya in Monsey. The learning of Mishnayos etc... This is my issue. We are making him a hero. Agudah, YI etc... had good intentions but something went wrong here.

If you listen to the interview Dov is simply in bed with Agudah. With the Lazar/Greenfield election he had made some deal with someone so he is defending the Agudah position.

57

 Feb 21, 2010 at 10:17 AM harvey finkel Says:

Reply to #7  
obamanation Says:

To 1&2: You are a bunch of anti samites we go according to the torah and only that!!! according to the torah there needs to be 2 aidim to have some one killed. and yes the holocha is that when a jew killes a goy he is not chayiv misa wheather u ike it or not, if u think differant yell at god not at me. there for according to our torah this man should of bein alive. I know u don't like to hear this but to bad!!!

To # 30, To begin with I note that u did not have the decisiony or strength to indicate your name and email address, vs the email on #2...What are u afraid of..

and clearly stating that the death penalty to those who commit murder , Especially when this animal killed a Police person s/b allowed to live..us inconsistent with the l was of our Country..

We had no right trying to defend this animal,

58

 Feb 21, 2010 at 10:38 AM Dave Says:

Really, "Involved".

You didn't ask for commutation?

Then why ask for the 60 day stay? It couldn't be for legal appeals, because all of those were exhausted.

59

 Feb 21, 2010 at 11:22 AM invoved Says:

Reply to #58  
Dave Says:

Really, "Involved".

You didn't ask for commutation?

Then why ask for the 60 day stay? It couldn't be for legal appeals, because all of those were exhausted.

NO we did not ask for a commutation we asked for a 60 day "stay of execution" why 60 days?
Additionally,At a dinner on Feb 2nd Alan dershowits met with the Gov and stated " There are flaws in this case and that he had a group of attorneys that were going to work pro- bono to go over the case and find the new evidence that can be presented". he is the one who came up with the 60 days. his reason was that to properly review the case and go and interview the two other people who are alive that testified would take time.
I dont know what other people did or wanted but I can tell you that 60 days is what those who were realy involved were looking for. Better yet since you have such chutzpa to doubt it why dont you call Gov Crist and ask him if at the meeting he had privately with a gentelman involved in this case, (not a rabbi) if that is what was requested. If he cant remmeber the meeting tell him the one his wife was at together with him.

As I wrote in an earlier comment you need new evidence to present for a new appeal. Once new evidence can be admitted we would be able to show cause and ask for life vs death penalty.

60

 Feb 21, 2010 at 11:22 AM Mario Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

Rabbi hoffman really went over board.They are looking for truth and justice!he better look at cases where the prosecutor bdavka witheld information.

You liberal loon. Stop defending a murderer. Listen to Rabbi Hoffman. There's
a Jewish rabbi who knows what he's talking about. In the meantime, you
crawl back into your cave.

61

 Feb 21, 2010 at 11:29 AM Rebbe Says:

Reply to #50  
Involved Says:

It is amazing how many people can play armchair quarterback after the fact. Many of the comments below are all over the place without a true basis. I dont question Rabbi Hoffmans knowledge of torah. I do however question the timming of his op-ed. Why After the fact? especially if as he said on the radio show he took the time to go thru the evidence and call the psychiatrist who evaluated Mr Grossman. What I see is rather a pathetic attemt to make a statement which is just generating comments from many foolish people who if this was their child in jail they would be running around and saying please save my child, and that includes Rabbi Hoffman.

It is correct to mention that there are many other causes that we should fight for! why was this case so different and why were we fighting to save this "murderers life" is another question.

We learn the concept of gilgulim, we may learn them and sometimes do not understand them. Is it possible that his neshoma had to come down to this world and suffer in jail and be executed? (thats not in anyway justifying the murder of Officer Parks). Is it possible that we had to unify and try to help, Could this be the rotzon hashem?
Continued

"we had to unify and help" Silly, don't you see that your pathetic rationalizations
cause even more dissent. "Why after the fact?" That's what many people
rightfully ask about guys like you who can't leave well enough alone.

The malicious attacks against Rabbi Hoffman and others who disagreed or questioned the wisdom of such overt demonstrations on behalf of a violent
criminal are beyond the pale.

62

 Feb 21, 2010 at 11:36 AM Mario Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

Rabbi hoffman really went over board.They are looking for truth and justice!he better look at cases where the prosecutor bdavka witheld information.

"Rabbi Hoffman really went over board..." Hey, weasel, show the rabbi some
respect. You're wet behind the ears and not so bright either. "Withheld
information." You mean the defense team withheld information. How about
you fanatics who did not inform the public that that low life gunned down a police woman after beating her up. Hey, I call that "withholding information," He had
a quarter century to defend himself. America is a great country. Love it or leave it
buster.

63

 Feb 21, 2010 at 11:41 AM Professor Says:

Reply to #51  
Involved Says:

continued
It is interesting that for every comment made regarding torah law, Rabbi Hoffman had a Taz or other torah commentary so say the opposite. Well that goes in line with the concept of shivim ponim latorah. Therefore the question is what are the true facts and why was this case different. Furthermore, is it maybe possible that this was the rotzon hashem that hashem wanted everyone to come together and try to save this soul. After all, this case was very different then most murder cases and most death row cases. additionally the sentencing was allowed only because he was on probation for a previous crime of breaking and entering.

1) Fact, - there was an accomplice who started the hitting of officer parks.
2) even if you disagree with the phsycologists analasys since he did work for the deffendants you still have to agree that he would have to have a real basis to prove the 77 IQ. He cant just pull it out of the hat.
3) Fact - the only reason that he was elegible for the death penalty was a technicallity of the fact that he was on probation, ad by the way under FL law that is inadmissible today in FL court.
continued

Other psychologists found that the killer was competent---smart enough to
cover his tracks in an attempt to camouflage his dastardly act. Dumb, smart---
that's irrelevant. All murderers should be executed--we should not discriminate.
In this case justice was finally served.

64

 Feb 21, 2010 at 11:51 AM lavdafka Says:

Rabbi Yair Hoffman I love you !!

65

 Feb 21, 2010 at 11:43 AM in the know Says:

Reply to #58  
Dave Says:

Really, "Involved".

You didn't ask for commutation?

Then why ask for the 60 day stay? It couldn't be for legal appeals, because all of those were exhausted.

The 60 days were for a new clemency hearing since his last clemency hearing was 20 years ago. This 60 day stay could only be granted by Crist since all of the legal appeals were exhausted. Since his last clemency hearing some 20 years earlier, new technology has become availble to better test mental aptitude. The case for a new clemency hearing was so compelling that famed Harvard law Professor Alan Dershowitz publicly stated for the record that he feels that case merits a second look. The saddest part of the negative Grossman comments are that very responsible and intelligent people looked at the same case you did with a greater focus on the truth and the facts. While you sit and type your strongly held convictions, activists were furiously trying to save his life. To have an opinion is one thing to throw mud at those who did so much more is shocking.

67

 Feb 21, 2010 at 11:59 AM Morris Says:

Reply to #54  
involved Says:

Next- Family Harrasment
Its nice that as he said on the Radio show he got his facts from a Gainesville newspaper and a blog. Why didnt rabbi hoffman call the Parks family like he did the phsychiatrist? so that he can find out the truth instead of stating that we have "mishugoyim" in the jewish world. It so hapens that the family was not contacted by many people and what they were contacted about was to set up a fund in momory of Peggy Parks so that her memory should not be forgotten additionaly the head of the episcopalean church did this to convince them that this would be a better way to bring closure rather than to see Mr Grossman die. I dont believe thats considered harrassment.

Point here is, Please get all the facts straight and then play armchair quarterback. and to all those who called Mr Grossman a cold blooded murdered, yes according to what you read in the papers that is true, however not always what you read is the truth.

I was at the burial in Liberty and a gentelman came and said I want to say a few words. He mentioned that he met someone in shul who asked him about grossman and can we save him
continued

."....so he can find out the truth instead of stating we have "mishugoyim".

Rabbi Hoffman is right. As for "mishugoyim", we don't need Rabbi Hoffman to
inform us of their existence in the "Jewish world." Just read some of the wacky
bloggers on this website who eulogize a cop killer and vilify decent
people who applaud the verdict. Some of them even condemn Rabbi Hoffman.

68

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:02 PM in the know Says:

Reply to #56  
FBF Says:

One of the issues is the aftermath. The large levaya in Monsey. The learning of Mishnayos etc... This is my issue. We are making him a hero. Agudah, YI etc... had good intentions but something went wrong here.

If you listen to the interview Dov is simply in bed with Agudah. With the Lazar/Greenfield election he had made some deal with someone so he is defending the Agudah position.

Is that why Dov basicly gave the entire in studio show to R' Hoffman? Because he was "in bed with the Agudah"? Rabbi Hoffman was given approx 40 minutes of the hour and the Hikind show made little effort to present another side. Yossi Gestetner when he heard about the show ,called them they didnt call him. Rabbi Karitsky only spoke about Martin he was not there to defend the efforts to save him. So sir I think you have taken your conspiracy theory that somehow Dov's show last night was "pro Agudah" because of Joe Lazar to an absurd level. Give me a break. Rabbi Hoffman buried himeslf with little help from anybody. His positions are weak at best.Quoting Mamorai chazal may impress those who get impressed by those sort of things but his arguments fall very short practically and halchlically. He was arrogant, evasive and simply not educated on the facts. He quoted the Gainsville times for goodness sake. How far must one go to hurt Klal organizations. The Gainville times??? By the way the Agudah didnt JFK either.

69

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:18 PM Professor Says:

"Alan Dershowitz publicly stated for the record...." Who cares? He's an ultra-liberal
radical. "Very responsible and intelligent people looked at the same case with
a greater focus on truth..." Baloney. There were, doubtless, sincere people
who tried to perform a virtuous deed. To my dismay, however, there were,
simultaneously, malicious, biased and irresponsible people hiding behind
the cloak of bogus religiosity who defamed other Jews, vilified the jury, the
governor of Florida and other rabbis---including Rabbi Hoffman.
"People looked at the same case with a greater focus on truth", you say.
Not true, they misread and misunderstand the pertinent facts. Guys on your
side are culpable of mudslinging. What a disgrace! It is shocking that those
defending a cop killer add insult to injury by heaping abuse on their opponents,
questioning their integrity and lineage. Shame on such fanaticism.

70

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:20 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #59  
invoved Says:

NO we did not ask for a commutation we asked for a 60 day "stay of execution" why 60 days?
Additionally,At a dinner on Feb 2nd Alan dershowits met with the Gov and stated " There are flaws in this case and that he had a group of attorneys that were going to work pro- bono to go over the case and find the new evidence that can be presented". he is the one who came up with the 60 days. his reason was that to properly review the case and go and interview the two other people who are alive that testified would take time.
I dont know what other people did or wanted but I can tell you that 60 days is what those who were realy involved were looking for. Better yet since you have such chutzpa to doubt it why dont you call Gov Crist and ask him if at the meeting he had privately with a gentelman involved in this case, (not a rabbi) if that is what was requested. If he cant remmeber the meeting tell him the one his wife was at together with him.

As I wrote in an earlier comment you need new evidence to present for a new appeal. Once new evidence can be admitted we would be able to show cause and ask for life vs death penalty.

So, the reason for asking for a "60 Day Stay" is that is all the Governor can provide under Florida law. Commutation requires the consent of the Clemency Board.

But, no "new evidence" does not get you new appeals. This was settled by the Rehnquist Court -- even new absolute evidence of innocence is not grounds for a new appeal.

There were no Judicial options left. The only path out was the Clemency Board -- casting this as a stay for legal research means you were either misled, or are misleading others.

71

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
Mario Says:

You liberal loon. Stop defending a murderer. Listen to Rabbi Hoffman. There's
a Jewish rabbi who knows what he's talking about. In the meantime, you
crawl back into your cave.

There are other jewish Rabbis that know what they are talking about too.

72

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:33 PM Anonymous Says:

What and where is the taz Rabbi Hoffman said he has? thanks

73

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:38 PM Professor Says:

Reply to #68  
in the know Says:

Is that why Dov basicly gave the entire in studio show to R' Hoffman? Because he was "in bed with the Agudah"? Rabbi Hoffman was given approx 40 minutes of the hour and the Hikind show made little effort to present another side. Yossi Gestetner when he heard about the show ,called them they didnt call him. Rabbi Karitsky only spoke about Martin he was not there to defend the efforts to save him. So sir I think you have taken your conspiracy theory that somehow Dov's show last night was "pro Agudah" because of Joe Lazar to an absurd level. Give me a break. Rabbi Hoffman buried himeslf with little help from anybody. His positions are weak at best.Quoting Mamorai chazal may impress those who get impressed by those sort of things but his arguments fall very short practically and halchlically. He was arrogant, evasive and simply not educated on the facts. He quoted the Gainsville times for goodness sake. How far must one go to hurt Klal organizations. The Gainville times??? By the way the Agudah didnt JFK either.

It was indeed appropriate to give Rabbi Hoffman ample opportunity to educate
the public by offering an objective and thoughtful presentation of the facts.
In addition, there was another guest on Hikind's program, a Dr. Katz, a holocaust survivor, who echoed Rabbi Hoffman's opinion. The second gentleman opined succinctly on the merits of the death penalty in general and the appropriate
justice done in this case in particular. On the other hand, Yossi Gestetner,
spoke incoherently and disgracefully. That ignoramous attempted to fabricate
a difference between a "cop killer" and someone "who killed a cop."
Can you imagine such stupidity? That simpleton argued in broken English
that Grossman was not so bad because he was just someone "who killed
a cop" as opposed to being a "cop killer." Rabbi Hoffman asked the simpleton to explain the difference between a "cop killer" and someone who "killed a cop."
The simpleton muttered something that was unintelligible. "Dov's show
was pro Aguda because of Joe Lazar..." That statement is almost as absurd
as Yossi Gestetner's remark about cop killer vs. someone who kills cops. You
should read Rabbi Hoffman's thoughtful article.

74

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:52 PM Mario Says:

Reply to #71  
Anonymous Says:

There are other jewish Rabbis that know what they are talking about too.

"There are other Jewish Rabbis that know what they are talking about...." I'm sure there are---in general. In particular, however as regards this subject Rabbi Yair
Hoffman is definitely well-informed. There are other Jewish Rabbis who support
the death penalty. (I favor mercy and compassion. Those are important virtues
good men must cultivate; however, it is folly to apply those necessary virtues
to evildoers---cop killers, for example.) The misplaced compassion advocated
by the pro-Grossman faction thwarts justice. Your attitude on this score is
reprehensible. Read Rabbi Hoffman's article. Get a translator if you don't understand English.

75

 Feb 21, 2010 at 12:55 PM involved Says:

Reply to #70  
Dave Says:

So, the reason for asking for a "60 Day Stay" is that is all the Governor can provide under Florida law. Commutation requires the consent of the Clemency Board.

But, no "new evidence" does not get you new appeals. This was settled by the Rehnquist Court -- even new absolute evidence of innocence is not grounds for a new appeal.

There were no Judicial options left. The only path out was the Clemency Board -- casting this as a stay for legal research means you were either misled, or are misleading others.

Yes the Governor alone could have given the Stay for 60 days. You are correct about the commutation that the board has to approve it. As far as the "new evidence" that is not absolutely true it can be submitted to a higher court and in this case that was the US Supreme Court.

Even if you wanted the clemency board to hear the case and to be able to reason with them you would need new evidence.

I can argue the positions taken in this matter both ways, pro and con, however really at this point there is no point in arguing it out. My feeling is that at least the facts of what was attempted and whether it hurt the Jewish community as a whole should be put out there and that assumptions should stop. What Rabbi Hoffman said is his opinion and he is entitled to it however, some of his statements can be questioned. Especially since he was not involved in the process and does not know everything that was said or done and by whom it was said or done

76

 Feb 21, 2010 at 01:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
Mario Says:

"Rabbi Hoffman really went over board..." Hey, weasel, show the rabbi some
respect. You're wet behind the ears and not so bright either. "Withheld
information." You mean the defense team withheld information. How about
you fanatics who did not inform the public that that low life gunned down a police woman after beating her up. Hey, I call that "withholding information," He had
a quarter century to defend himself. America is a great country. Love it or leave it
buster.

I am no weasel.No one never witheld any information at all.You never answered m point over america's justice system in general.

77

 Feb 21, 2010 at 01:18 PM in the know Says:

Reply to #73  
Professor Says:

It was indeed appropriate to give Rabbi Hoffman ample opportunity to educate
the public by offering an objective and thoughtful presentation of the facts.
In addition, there was another guest on Hikind's program, a Dr. Katz, a holocaust survivor, who echoed Rabbi Hoffman's opinion. The second gentleman opined succinctly on the merits of the death penalty in general and the appropriate
justice done in this case in particular. On the other hand, Yossi Gestetner,
spoke incoherently and disgracefully. That ignoramous attempted to fabricate
a difference between a "cop killer" and someone "who killed a cop."
Can you imagine such stupidity? That simpleton argued in broken English
that Grossman was not so bad because he was just someone "who killed
a cop" as opposed to being a "cop killer." Rabbi Hoffman asked the simpleton to explain the difference between a "cop killer" and someone who "killed a cop."
The simpleton muttered something that was unintelligible. "Dov's show
was pro Aguda because of Joe Lazar..." That statement is almost as absurd
as Yossi Gestetner's remark about cop killer vs. someone who kills cops. You
should read Rabbi Hoffman's thoughtful article.

Mr. Professor Im not sure what your problem is. For a professor your just
not following. My comments were in response to the absurd comment that Dov was in bed with the Agudah by #56 FBF. I see that you agree it was absurd. Take a deep breath, you seem way to hostile on this subject. What gives?

78

 Feb 21, 2010 at 01:55 PM Big Mouth Says:

Cool everyone.

1) Do u know that grossman had somebody with him (Thyne Taylor) to commit and cover-up the crime?

2) Do u know that Taylor was the one who started hitting Parks, and Grossman only followed (and with his mental limitations, didn't know when to stop)?

3) Do u know that shooting Parks was during a struggle, after she fired and shot, and NOT was stood against a wall to be shot?

4) Do you know that Taylor brought another person, in addition to Grossman, to do the cover-up?

5) To u know that Grossman's guilt is based mostly on Taylor's testimony which he gave in exchange for a smaller sentence?

6) Do u know that Taylor took his life later out of guilt for screwing over Grossman?

7) Do you know that some of the other testimony was from someone who told the court what Taylor told him about that night?

8) Do you know that the other person and/or Taylor took back their testimony, but too little too late.

So all of you smart ppl should shut the hell up B4 making ur anti-Grossman points.

79

 Feb 21, 2010 at 01:40 PM Dr. Z Says:

There have been several Jews who are totally innocent, whose doctors or nurses seek to convince their families to withdraw care ("pull the plug") and hence cause their death--because the patients are disabled, perhaps dying, or do not have the same quality of life the doctor / nurse feels justifies living.

What are we doing as a community to help these patients and their families?

Are we sending emails to the hospital CEO? Are we offering emotional support to the family? Are we offering ANY support whatsoever to the family? What are Jewish organizations doing when they learn of such cases, from desperate family members, when the hospitals make unilateral decisions supposedly based on 'secular ethics' but often more likely based on financial considerations?

80

 Feb 21, 2010 at 01:57 PM Tanna Kamma Says:

I understand Rabbi Hoffman/s position, but take issue with his criticism of the mishnayos-learning undertaking. If anyone needs zechusim, it's this soul.

81

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:11 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #75  
involved Says:

Yes the Governor alone could have given the Stay for 60 days. You are correct about the commutation that the board has to approve it. As far as the "new evidence" that is not absolutely true it can be submitted to a higher court and in this case that was the US Supreme Court.

Even if you wanted the clemency board to hear the case and to be able to reason with them you would need new evidence.

I can argue the positions taken in this matter both ways, pro and con, however really at this point there is no point in arguing it out. My feeling is that at least the facts of what was attempted and whether it hurt the Jewish community as a whole should be put out there and that assumptions should stop. What Rabbi Hoffman said is his opinion and he is entitled to it however, some of his statements can be questioned. Especially since he was not involved in the process and does not know everything that was said or done and by whom it was said or done

Herrera v. Collins, 1993.

Evidence of innocence after conviction is not grounds for appeal in the United States. Opinion written by Chief Justice of the United States, William Rehnquist.

There was no judicial option left. If your lawyers weren't telling you that, you need better lawyers.

The only option was the Clemency Board. Under Florida law, executive clemency requires the consent of the Governor AND two of the three remaining members of the Clemency Board.

As the Governor had just signed the Death Warrant, and was not going to grant clemency, why would he delay for 60 days?

The only case where you'll get a Florida Governor to grant a stay is if they are the one trying to convince the rest of the Clemency Board.

82

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:13 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #78  
Big Mouth Says:

Cool everyone.

1) Do u know that grossman had somebody with him (Thyne Taylor) to commit and cover-up the crime?

2) Do u know that Taylor was the one who started hitting Parks, and Grossman only followed (and with his mental limitations, didn't know when to stop)?

3) Do u know that shooting Parks was during a struggle, after she fired and shot, and NOT was stood against a wall to be shot?

4) Do you know that Taylor brought another person, in addition to Grossman, to do the cover-up?

5) To u know that Grossman's guilt is based mostly on Taylor's testimony which he gave in exchange for a smaller sentence?

6) Do u know that Taylor took his life later out of guilt for screwing over Grossman?

7) Do you know that some of the other testimony was from someone who told the court what Taylor told him about that night?

8) Do you know that the other person and/or Taylor took back their testimony, but too little too late.

So all of you smart ppl should shut the hell up B4 making ur anti-Grossman points.

Which explains why the physical evidence points to Grossman, not Taylor. Oh, and the story that Grossman told to other people also doesn't match your story.

Oh, wait.

Your "facts" don't match the actual facts. Nice try.

83

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:19 PM Mitzvah Says:

"Timche es zecher AMALEIK" for all we know maybe he was mkayeim a mitzvah many of us will never be able to do. May his neshama have an aliya.

84

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:31 PM Big Mouth Says:

Reply to #82  
Dave Says:

Which explains why the physical evidence points to Grossman, not Taylor. Oh, and the story that Grossman told to other people also doesn't match your story.

Oh, wait.

Your "facts" don't match the actual facts. Nice try.

Physical evidence pointed to Grossman?

Well, 1) no one one denies that he was at the scence and did crazy stuff. It is only a question how much he really did.

2) He got put to rest in big part on on false/retrectad testimony.

3) How difficult was it for Taylor to place objects into Grossman's hands and to make him take the fall for it?

85

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:34 PM the facts are... Says:

Reply to #79  
Dr. Z Says:

There have been several Jews who are totally innocent, whose doctors or nurses seek to convince their families to withdraw care ("pull the plug") and hence cause their death--because the patients are disabled, perhaps dying, or do not have the same quality of life the doctor / nurse feels justifies living.

What are we doing as a community to help these patients and their families?

Are we sending emails to the hospital CEO? Are we offering emotional support to the family? Are we offering ANY support whatsoever to the family? What are Jewish organizations doing when they learn of such cases, from desperate family members, when the hospitals make unilateral decisions supposedly based on 'secular ethics' but often more likely based on financial considerations?

DR. Z. I will assume you meant to be helpful and your intentions were not to disparage anybody. But-who do you think is the one who gets the call many times when an end of life battle begins? Its not you unless your name is Mordechai Biser esq. renowned expert on end of life case law and associate general counsel at Agudath Israel.
It is frightening to read many of the hurtful invective above. We can agree to disagree but when all the facts become distorted and posters here make our Klal organizations and askonim out to be the bad guys, this is has gone to far. While you sit here and throw bomb after bomb I assure you every askan who tried to save Grossman has begun several new projects and has not wasted a minute of their time reading this destructive garbage. For their Kovud and for the Kovud of Klal Yisroel enough already. I choose not to cast my lot with the Proffesor, FBF,Mario, anonymous, anonmous etc...and instead place great faith in Daas Torah. emunas chachomim and Askonim who put their good name out in the public arena while all of you armchair quaterbacks on monday morning no less cast your opinions and diatribes. This is whats wrong with us not the effort to save him.

86

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:34 PM mitzveh man fan Says:

Reply to #83  
Mitzvah Says:

"Timche es zecher AMALEIK" for all we know maybe he was mkayeim a mitzvah many of us will never be able to do. May his neshama have an aliya.

Great point

87

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:42 PM mitzvah man fan Says:

Reply to #83  
Mitzvah Says:

"Timche es zecher AMALEIK" for all we know maybe he was mkayeim a mitzvah many of us will never be able to do. May his neshama have an aliya.

Great point

88

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:47 PM out of hand Says:

Reply to #81  
Dave Says:

Herrera v. Collins, 1993.

Evidence of innocence after conviction is not grounds for appeal in the United States. Opinion written by Chief Justice of the United States, William Rehnquist.

There was no judicial option left. If your lawyers weren't telling you that, you need better lawyers.

The only option was the Clemency Board. Under Florida law, executive clemency requires the consent of the Governor AND two of the three remaining members of the Clemency Board.

As the Governor had just signed the Death Warrant, and was not going to grant clemency, why would he delay for 60 days?

The only case where you'll get a Florida Governor to grant a stay is if they are the one trying to convince the rest of the Clemency Board.

Dave,
you seem to know an awful lot but clealy not enough of the work that went on quietly behind the scenes.In this case all the members (4)of the clemency board were contacted privatly and then eventially publicly. 2 of them are running for Crist's seat A.G.Bill Mccolough and CFO Alex sink as well as the Gov. and Charles Bronson. All 3 said the ball is in the Govs hand to bring it to the clemency board. The full weight rested on the Governor. What's your point. Crist could have issued a 60 day stay and all of the new testing could have been performed on Grossman to trigger a new clemency hearing as Dershowitz asked for. Dave,the luxary of sitting in your underwear 5 days after the case completed and giving us your legal brilliance is not helpful. You want Grossman dead you got it. Can you understand that others including big Gedolim felt differntly than you? Your points are taken but fail to give credence to things you dont know.This is our of hand!

89

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:47 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #84  
Big Mouth Says:

Physical evidence pointed to Grossman?

Well, 1) no one one denies that he was at the scence and did crazy stuff. It is only a question how much he really did.

2) He got put to rest in big part on on false/retrectad testimony.

3) How difficult was it for Taylor to place objects into Grossman's hands and to make him take the fall for it?

Let me guess, you never bothered to read the Appelate decision which addressed the evidence, and the testimony.

90

 Feb 21, 2010 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:

can som1 explain me why do they point out again and again rabbi hoffman & dr kats, that the cop was shot in the back of her head

91

 Feb 21, 2010 at 03:05 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #88  
out of hand Says:

Dave,
you seem to know an awful lot but clealy not enough of the work that went on quietly behind the scenes.In this case all the members (4)of the clemency board were contacted privatly and then eventially publicly. 2 of them are running for Crist's seat A.G.Bill Mccolough and CFO Alex sink as well as the Gov. and Charles Bronson. All 3 said the ball is in the Govs hand to bring it to the clemency board. The full weight rested on the Governor. What's your point. Crist could have issued a 60 day stay and all of the new testing could have been performed on Grossman to trigger a new clemency hearing as Dershowitz asked for. Dave,the luxary of sitting in your underwear 5 days after the case completed and giving us your legal brilliance is not helpful. You want Grossman dead you got it. Can you understand that others including big Gedolim felt differntly than you? Your points are taken but fail to give credence to things you dont know.This is our of hand!

If Governor Crist were going to bring it to the Clemency Board, he'd have done so before signing the Warrant.

Making the "we just wanted a 60 day stay" claim is disingenuous. Look at the number of comments in this thread alone that amount to "it was a delay for legal challenges", which it could not possibly have been.

What was desired was clemency.

And not only was Governor Crist clearly not going to grant it, I doubt if he'd have gotten the votes on the Clemency Board even if he'd wanted to. Not with two of the Board running to replace him in a state where the Death Penalty is quite popular.

92

 Feb 21, 2010 at 03:11 PM Professor Says:

Reply to #68  
in the know Says:

Is that why Dov basicly gave the entire in studio show to R' Hoffman? Because he was "in bed with the Agudah"? Rabbi Hoffman was given approx 40 minutes of the hour and the Hikind show made little effort to present another side. Yossi Gestetner when he heard about the show ,called them they didnt call him. Rabbi Karitsky only spoke about Martin he was not there to defend the efforts to save him. So sir I think you have taken your conspiracy theory that somehow Dov's show last night was "pro Agudah" because of Joe Lazar to an absurd level. Give me a break. Rabbi Hoffman buried himeslf with little help from anybody. His positions are weak at best.Quoting Mamorai chazal may impress those who get impressed by those sort of things but his arguments fall very short practically and halchlically. He was arrogant, evasive and simply not educated on the facts. He quoted the Gainsville times for goodness sake. How far must one go to hurt Klal organizations. The Gainville times??? By the way the Agudah didnt JFK either.

"Rabbi Hoffman buried himself with little help from anybody..His positions
are weak....." You totally miss the point. Rabbi Hoffman and Dr. Katz clearly
presented the case justifying the execution of the cop killer. The other side was
incoherent. As regards the silly theory about a pro-Agudah plot, I refer to
the other blogger who brought it up. But you're wrong about the program.
Rabbi Hoffman consistently made substantial contributiions to the discussion.
Do you defend Yossi Gestetner's absurd attempt to distinguish between
"a cop killer" and someone "who kills cops"? Your comments about Rabbi
Hoffman's presentation are arrogant. You should listen to the program again.
All of Rabbi Hoffman's remarks were relevant. Yours are not.

93

 Feb 21, 2010 at 03:09 PM AgudahMan Says:

Rabbi Z at Agudah: What would Reb Moshe Sherrer have done? Wasted political capital on a lost cause with the high potential of a backlash from many sides? I think not! Just a bit naive and Rabbi H is correct.

94

 Feb 21, 2010 at 03:18 PM Bob Says:

You need someone to translate the proceedings for you. They did not keep repeating that fact. It was mentioned just to remiind those who were uninformed that
a brutal crime had been committed. I just took a look at some of the stuff on this
subject here. It seems some of you guys are trying to make a martyr out of
that criminal. Maybe that's why the rabbi and professor saw fit to educate the
public regarding the gravity of the crime committed.

95

 Feb 21, 2010 at 03:36 PM Mario Says:

Reply to #76  
Anonymous Says:

I am no weasel.No one never witheld any information at all.You never answered m point over america's justice system in general.

"No one ever withheld any information at all..." That's right. Now you're a rocket
scientist. Well nobody withheld information on the prosecution side either.
Twenty five years---that's a long time to prepare a case. So don't say that
Rabbi Hoffman went over board #48. Scram.

96

 Feb 21, 2010 at 04:08 PM Clarity Says:

I thank HKB"H for Rabbi Hoffman every day! It truly pains me to see how far the klal has fallen.

Yasher Koach Rabbi Hoffman! A voice of reason emanating from a cacophony of... unreason.

97

 Feb 21, 2010 at 05:18 PM Fantastic! Says:

Rabbi Hoffman, during a week where I was totally depressed because it appeared that my fellow Jews were not only heartless towards the actual victims but had lost their collective minds, you spoke with such clarity and common sense. I am so grateful for you, you have no idea. I was losing faith, and then you wrote what you wrote.

98

 Feb 21, 2010 at 05:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #95  
Mario Says:

"No one ever withheld any information at all..." That's right. Now you're a rocket
scientist. Well nobody withheld information on the prosecution side either.
Twenty five years---that's a long time to prepare a case. So don't say that
Rabbi Hoffman went over board #48. Scram.

Huh?Did you listen to the show?he said the justice system is looking for truth and justice.And i pointed out the corruption in the system like these prosecutors witholding information.Not to mention the way of legitmate testimony through offering another guy off and accepting his testimony 100%.

99

 Feb 21, 2010 at 06:39 PM yiddishe bubby Says:

reply to @15 you are correct, let these organizations raise big outcries for what we are doing to ourselves and Rabbi Hoffman wrote an excellent article and we need more rabbonim who will say it like it is and not march to the same tunes. Yasher Koach, Rabbi Hoffman

100

 Feb 21, 2010 at 08:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #96  
Clarity Says:

I thank HKB"H for Rabbi Hoffman every day! It truly pains me to see how far the klal has fallen.

Yasher Koach Rabbi Hoffman! A voice of reason emanating from a cacophony of... unreason.

Mr. clarity let me make you clear that when the klal listen to the Torah they are not fallen and when we are taking a stand against Torah we are fallen. i urge someone to tell me which Taz Rabbi Hoffman spoke about

101

 Feb 21, 2010 at 07:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Rabbi Hoffman is wrong! The false testimony of Charles Brewer at Grossman's testimony, and the underhanded deal that Brewer worked out with the State's Attorney's Office to eleicit his false testimony, is just one example of went wrong with this trial. There are laws in this country, Rabbi Hoffman! And if Capital punishment is to be metted out, it must be done in accordance with the law. Rabbi Hoffman's emotional feeling do not dictate the rules and laws of capital punishment. I know Vos is Nais will not publish my comment, and that is fine with me, as long as they publish Rabbi Hoffman's incorrect and incorent views.

102

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:20 PM Anonymous Says:

I am appalled at the EGO Rabbi Hoffman emits. On one hand he says that we all got on the band wagon over information we heard that was only from one side of the fence and then he promotes the concept that Yidden called the family of the victim and called them "Nazi's" because it was reported by a newspaper. Did he actually speak to the family himself????? Sorry RABBI that is a double standard.

In addition, the assumption that YIDDEN in general are "for" the death penalty is a huge assumption. Yidden are "FOR LIFE", we respect life and we believe that only Hashem can give life and take life.

In addition, for someone who works or worked with the at-risk population it is outrageous that he does not even have one iota of compassion or understanding of this man as a 20 year old with an IQ of 77 with the unfortunate background he had.

In addition, as Yossi Gestetner pointed out, Grossman did not go out looking to shoot a cop. It was a spur of the moment incident. And Hoffman attacks Gestener for not speaking to any of the prosecutor's expert witnesses, I would like to know who Hoffman spoke to that he became an expert on Grossman and his abilities at that time.

103

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Hoffman, does not recognize that most death penalty charges are implemented against premeditated murder. This was not the case with Grossman. In addition, when he says that "we must choose our battles" he doesn't seem to realize is that it is exactly what we did. WE chose to fight for his life, not his freedom. It does not take away for any efforts we should make towards any other person in trouble.

The problem here is that Hoffman has to defend his position and he won't back down. When the Agudah, headed by an ilui like the Noviminsker Rav decides to beg for his life, I feel very comfortable saying that HE knows better than Hoffman and that he has studied Halacha a lot longer than Hoffman therefore his judgment in this case far outweighs that of Hoffman. I don't know Grossman personally but when I get a request to help a fellow Jew and that the request is supported by Daas Torah, I take that request seriously.

On the other hand, I might not necessarily go out of my way to do something for a goy I don't know, however if it was someone I know, or someone that someone I knew did, and I was asked to help I would. Don't trust the death penalty, the justice system is not just.

104

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Hoffman says that it is a "sofek" whether or not Grossman did teshuva. How could he say that, did he spend even one minute with him that he can excuse him of that? I feel that is a very harsh and inappropriate comment.

In addition, when he says why are people saying mishnayos for him. Why not say mishnayos for Gilad and the others? My answer is why not????? Why don't you, Rabbi Hoffman, start a program for people to be saying mishnayos for IDF prisoners. It is a very good idea, but that doesn't mean that people should be taken to task for choosing to say mishnayas for a lost yiddish soul who has no one to pray for him.

To say that we wasted our efforts here when our efforts could have been used to save lives in other situations is a chilul Hashem. Who are you to choose which one of Hashem's children is more important than the other? Everyone should be treated equally.

Why do you say that no one was presented with both sides of the position? Again, were you there? Do you know who researched what? You ASSUME too much.

105

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:41 PM Anonymous Says:

I think Dov made an excellent point. There was a time limit and deadline we were working against and the need was great to work quickly.

106

 Feb 21, 2010 at 09:52 PM Anonymous Says:

It is unfortunate that Rabbi Hoffman has made such an issue of his own personal opinion and that because the crime itself is so "ekeldek" he chooses to support the death penalty for this nebech of a person up to the point that he calls his "teshuva" questionable. Even after Rabbi K said that he and Rabbi Katz along with other Lubavitcher Rabbonim and bochurim spent a lot of time with Grossman over the span of his incarceration and stated in fact that there was a tremendous change in him over the years. He also spoke about his abusive and neglectful childhood.

Let me ask you this Rabbi Hoffman, how many prisoners have been let go from our Justice and criminal system after many years of incarceration because they have later found out they basically "hung" the wrong man???? How would you feel, since you are for the death penalty, if someone was put to death and was later discovered that they were actually innocent? I don't care if it is a goy or a yid, one mistake is one too many in my book.

107

 Feb 21, 2010 at 10:05 PM no mercy Says:

To Rebbe, Professor, Dave, Mario, Yidishe Bubby and all the others who post anonymously. On behalf of all those who cared to save a life and tried to look beyond the facts that were presented thru the various news outlets. Let me be the one to inform you the following

If the shoe was on the other foot I am sure you would'nt be talking so negative.

I wish no harm on you nor on your families, but if god forbid one of your childrem, grandchildren or relatives commits a crime whether it be Vehicular homicide or even if they get into a fight and someone gets hurt or gets murdered even if it is by mistake, or if he or she is arrested for a mistake or petty crime, Please dont call us for help. I repeat PLEASE DONT CALL US FOR HELP. Who is us? The Rest of the jewish nation other than yourselves. Why because as you all put it, "they will be guilty as sin and therefore should suffer for their crimes, No questions asked.

108

 Feb 22, 2010 at 03:02 AM DAAS TORAH Says:

Reply to #107  
no mercy Says:

To Rebbe, Professor, Dave, Mario, Yidishe Bubby and all the others who post anonymously. On behalf of all those who cared to save a life and tried to look beyond the facts that were presented thru the various news outlets. Let me be the one to inform you the following

If the shoe was on the other foot I am sure you would'nt be talking so negative.

I wish no harm on you nor on your families, but if god forbid one of your childrem, grandchildren or relatives commits a crime whether it be Vehicular homicide or even if they get into a fight and someone gets hurt or gets murdered even if it is by mistake, or if he or she is arrested for a mistake or petty crime, Please dont call us for help. I repeat PLEASE DONT CALL US FOR HELP. Who is us? The Rest of the jewish nation other than yourselves. Why because as you all put it, "they will be guilty as sin and therefore should suffer for their crimes, No questions asked.

"If the shoe was on the other foot you wouldn't be talking negative..."
Rebuttal: Your vicious comments are negative and you should do teshuvah.
Your negativity distorts reality: the obligation to protect society from violent
criminals---as dictated by the Torah which prescribes capital punishment.
Your statement contradicting the Torah's mandate constitutes "apikorses" or
perhaps plain ignorance. In any case, you do not have the right to misrepresent
a fundamental Torah law: Murder carries the death penalty which is imposed
pursuant to a trial and judicial review in accordance with the legal system.
(The foregoing applies to non-Jewish societies as well; it is a Mitzvah to
support the legal system, its imperfections notwithstanding.) "Look beyond the
facts..." That is the reason DAAS TORAH and intelligent people disagree with
your superficial comments. You disregard facts while focusing on fiction. How
can anyone take you seriously when you admit that it is a virtue to ignore
the facts? Obviously your views are automatically discredited as a result.
In addition, you are to be condemned for attacking
the families of those who disagree with you. You are guilty and sinful.

109

 Feb 22, 2010 at 03:39 AM Rebbe Says:

Reply to #106  
Anonymous Says:

It is unfortunate that Rabbi Hoffman has made such an issue of his own personal opinion and that because the crime itself is so "ekeldek" he chooses to support the death penalty for this nebech of a person up to the point that he calls his "teshuva" questionable. Even after Rabbi K said that he and Rabbi Katz along with other Lubavitcher Rabbonim and bochurim spent a lot of time with Grossman over the span of his incarceration and stated in fact that there was a tremendous change in him over the years. He also spoke about his abusive and neglectful childhood.

Let me ask you this Rabbi Hoffman, how many prisoners have been let go from our Justice and criminal system after many years of incarceration because they have later found out they basically "hung" the wrong man???? How would you feel, since you are for the death penalty, if someone was put to death and was later discovered that they were actually innocent? I don't care if it is a goy or a yid, one mistake is one too many in my book.

"It is unfortunate Rabbi Hoffman has made an issue of his own opinion." You
brought it up and add insult to injury by vilifying anyone who disagrees with your
misguided attitude and viewpoint. Rabbi Hoffman's opinion is based on the Torah.
"Because the crime itself is so "ekeldek" he chooses to support the death penalty.."
Wrong again young fellow. The death penalty is prescribed by Torah Law: "Anyone
who sheds the blood of man will have his blood shed by man, for man was created in
God's image. (Genesis 9:,6) "Even after Rabbi K. said that he and Rabbi
Katz along with other Lubavitcher Rabbanim spent time with Grossman..."
Unfortunately, it is not possible to accept reports made by such
individuals as necessarily accurate. Those same clergymen falsely believe that
their deceased rebbe is Moshiach. Consequently, it is understandable why
people might be skeptical about the accuracy of their statements even if
their intentions are good. But even on the assumption that the accused had
repented, that would ipso facto not nullify a death penalty for murder pursuant
to a proper trial with judicial review. Nobody stopped you or anyone else
from appealing the case.

110

 Feb 22, 2010 at 04:08 AM Rebbe Says:

Reply to #106  
Anonymous Says:

It is unfortunate that Rabbi Hoffman has made such an issue of his own personal opinion and that because the crime itself is so "ekeldek" he chooses to support the death penalty for this nebech of a person up to the point that he calls his "teshuva" questionable. Even after Rabbi K said that he and Rabbi Katz along with other Lubavitcher Rabbonim and bochurim spent a lot of time with Grossman over the span of his incarceration and stated in fact that there was a tremendous change in him over the years. He also spoke about his abusive and neglectful childhood.

Let me ask you this Rabbi Hoffman, how many prisoners have been let go from our Justice and criminal system after many years of incarceration because they have later found out they basically "hung" the wrong man???? How would you feel, since you are for the death penalty, if someone was put to death and was later discovered that they were actually innocent? I don't care if it is a goy or a yid, one mistake is one too many in my book.

"There was a tremendous change ... his abusive and neglectful childhood..."
Not everyone from such a background turns out to be a murderer. In this case,
the accused had ample time---25 years---to mount a defense. His lawyers
were unable to provide sufficient evidence to overturn the original death sentence.
. You raise another issue: abolition of the death penalty.
You are against the death penalty. It thus follows that it would not
make any difference what anyone says to you. Your mind is made up.
You're entitled to your opinion and so am I. However, you are not entitled to
impose your opinions on the Torah which mandates capital punishment as Divine
fiat for murder." One mistake is too many---you say." By the same token, one
mistake caused in the absence of the dead penalty is likewise unacceptable.
Since it deters potential murderers--not all but at least some--- the absence of that
deterrent jeopardises the lives of the innocent. Even if one murder is committed
because of the abolition----that would be one murder too many in my book.
Thus, on theological grounds we have no right to advocate for abolition of the death penalty. I do pray that the accused repented.

111

 Feb 22, 2010 at 10:05 AM Anonymous Says:

He made a complete fool of himself on the show.

112

 Feb 22, 2010 at 12:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #110  
Rebbe Says:

"There was a tremendous change ... his abusive and neglectful childhood..."
Not everyone from such a background turns out to be a murderer. In this case,
the accused had ample time---25 years---to mount a defense. His lawyers
were unable to provide sufficient evidence to overturn the original death sentence.
. You raise another issue: abolition of the death penalty.
You are against the death penalty. It thus follows that it would not
make any difference what anyone says to you. Your mind is made up.
You're entitled to your opinion and so am I. However, you are not entitled to
impose your opinions on the Torah which mandates capital punishment as Divine
fiat for murder." One mistake is too many---you say." By the same token, one
mistake caused in the absence of the dead penalty is likewise unacceptable.
Since it deters potential murderers--not all but at least some--- the absence of that
deterrent jeopardises the lives of the innocent. Even if one murder is committed
because of the abolition----that would be one murder too many in my book.
Thus, on theological grounds we have no right to advocate for abolition of the death penalty. I do pray that the accused repented.

There is no one available today on the madreigah of the "sanhedrin" who can carry out such an "onesh"! WE don't have sanhedrin today and in most cases WE can't even find an honest Beis Din as in the case with child molesters who protect their "own" rabbonim instead of the children. In addition, we find time and time again that some of the Rabbonim WE trust are not trustworthy as in the case of Tropper, and even r"l the father that abused his own daughter still called Rabbi.

So WHO do you think is wise enough and honest enough to come to the conclusion that they have the "seyata d'shmaya" to meet out this sentence??????

Get over yourself, we are not living in the times of the Talmud where WE were governed by neviim, tzadikim and malachim!

113

 Feb 22, 2010 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #109  
Rebbe Says:

"It is unfortunate Rabbi Hoffman has made an issue of his own opinion." You
brought it up and add insult to injury by vilifying anyone who disagrees with your
misguided attitude and viewpoint. Rabbi Hoffman's opinion is based on the Torah.
"Because the crime itself is so "ekeldek" he chooses to support the death penalty.."
Wrong again young fellow. The death penalty is prescribed by Torah Law: "Anyone
who sheds the blood of man will have his blood shed by man, for man was created in
God's image. (Genesis 9:,6) "Even after Rabbi K. said that he and Rabbi
Katz along with other Lubavitcher Rabbanim spent time with Grossman..."
Unfortunately, it is not possible to accept reports made by such
individuals as necessarily accurate. Those same clergymen falsely believe that
their deceased rebbe is Moshiach. Consequently, it is understandable why
people might be skeptical about the accuracy of their statements even if
their intentions are good. But even on the assumption that the accused had
repented, that would ipso facto not nullify a death penalty for murder pursuant
to a proper trial with judicial review. Nobody stopped you or anyone else
from appealing the case.

What kind of soneh yisroel are you??? Rabbi Hoffman's opinion is based on Torah but the Lubavitcher Rabbonim do not base their work on Torah????? What a chilul Hashem!!!!!! You vilify an entire community of chassidim and their emeskid work to back one man's opinion who is going against not only the sincere work that these Lubavitcher emissaries do on a daily basis, but that of D'aas Torah who backed them and asked us all to do the same.

WE are not on a madreigah that can condone the death penalty. As the Torah also says, those who are without sin, should throw the first stone!

114

 Feb 22, 2010 at 12:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #108  
DAAS TORAH Says:

"If the shoe was on the other foot you wouldn't be talking negative..."
Rebuttal: Your vicious comments are negative and you should do teshuvah.
Your negativity distorts reality: the obligation to protect society from violent
criminals---as dictated by the Torah which prescribes capital punishment.
Your statement contradicting the Torah's mandate constitutes "apikorses" or
perhaps plain ignorance. In any case, you do not have the right to misrepresent
a fundamental Torah law: Murder carries the death penalty which is imposed
pursuant to a trial and judicial review in accordance with the legal system.
(The foregoing applies to non-Jewish societies as well; it is a Mitzvah to
support the legal system, its imperfections notwithstanding.) "Look beyond the
facts..." That is the reason DAAS TORAH and intelligent people disagree with
your superficial comments. You disregard facts while focusing on fiction. How
can anyone take you seriously when you admit that it is a virtue to ignore
the facts? Obviously your views are automatically discredited as a result.
In addition, you are to be condemned for attacking
the families of those who disagree with you. You are guilty and sinful.

As you call yourself DAAS TORAH and you demand the literal translation. If your son was playing ball and his ball went straight into his friend's eye basically taking it out, by your theory "an eye for an eye", you would put out your son's eye according to the Torah!!

Please stop interpreting the TORAH for your own benefit to support your own beliefs. It is either ALL or not. Don't pick and choose.

115

 Feb 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #108  
DAAS TORAH Says:

"If the shoe was on the other foot you wouldn't be talking negative..."
Rebuttal: Your vicious comments are negative and you should do teshuvah.
Your negativity distorts reality: the obligation to protect society from violent
criminals---as dictated by the Torah which prescribes capital punishment.
Your statement contradicting the Torah's mandate constitutes "apikorses" or
perhaps plain ignorance. In any case, you do not have the right to misrepresent
a fundamental Torah law: Murder carries the death penalty which is imposed
pursuant to a trial and judicial review in accordance with the legal system.
(The foregoing applies to non-Jewish societies as well; it is a Mitzvah to
support the legal system, its imperfections notwithstanding.) "Look beyond the
facts..." That is the reason DAAS TORAH and intelligent people disagree with
your superficial comments. You disregard facts while focusing on fiction. How
can anyone take you seriously when you admit that it is a virtue to ignore
the facts? Obviously your views are automatically discredited as a result.
In addition, you are to be condemned for attacking
the families of those who disagree with you. You are guilty and sinful.

Please understand something. WE are far from being a perfect world. WE are far from being perfect Jews, way far. WE fight amongst ourselves, we have been caught doing many, many things not only against Torah and Halacha but also against Dina Malchusa.

Until we are PERFECT and can perform all our deeds respectfully in honor of Hashem and in service to Hashem as WE are supposed to, PLEASE, PLEASE don't be so quick to judge others and defend your position because you can learn a little Torah and Gemorah and can back it up with what the Torah says. THAT is very dangerous. A true Talmid Chacham also knows and understands compassion, teshuva, and circumstance and considers what Hashem would want him to say, how he would want him to act, and how he would want him to guide others.

Please read the story recently posted in regard to R' Shteinman. And also understand that crimes come with consequences and no one said otherwise, but not every punishment fits the crime or should be used in every instance. No one asked for his release just to spare his life. Had someone asked Grossman to spare Peggy's life he might have snapped back to reality!!!

116

 Feb 22, 2010 at 12:26 PM Anonymous Says:

I take offense to Hoffman's attitude that we should have use our time more productively by writing letters for Shalit, davening for other people, etc. As a Rabbi he should know better!!! There is no limit to how many people K'lal Yisroel can daven for.

In addition, if he feels that letter writing and davening for others is something he wants to promote, he after all is a Rabbi, living in a large Jewish community. Not only that but he teaches in a Girl's high school. He has unlimited resources to do this. So my question to him is WHY HAVEN'T YOU DONE ANYTHING ABOUT IT UNTIL NOW? Maybe your problem is within yourself that YOU yourself lacked the initiative and forethought to implement such a campaign to help Shalit and others in trouble.

117

 Feb 22, 2010 at 01:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #94  
Bob Says:

You need someone to translate the proceedings for you. They did not keep repeating that fact. It was mentioned just to remiind those who were uninformed that
a brutal crime had been committed. I just took a look at some of the stuff on this
subject here. It seems some of you guys are trying to make a martyr out of
that criminal. Maybe that's why the rabbi and professor saw fit to educate the
public regarding the gravity of the crime committed.

No one is arguing the gravity of the crime. No one wanted to see Grossman go free. But one must also consider the "gravity" of the crime committed to the child Martin Grossman who was at a mental disadvantage, was abused and living in an unstable and dysfunctional environment. The accused was not a person who thoughtfully out of evil and viciousness went out looking to hurt or kill anyone. The entire circumstance and scenario was a chain reaction of an adult child in pain, on drugs, going out with a friend to do something he shouldn't that went totally out of control.

Grossman the adult understood that he did wrong, he understood that the crime was horrific and he understood the consequence of his crime and lived with it for 25 years. He never expected to be set free, and never expected anyone to try and help him. Prison became his home and he had more structure there than he probably ever had at home.

WE all understand the gravity of the crime, we also understand that the circumstances and that is why we also have compassion for the criminal. There was no victory or satisfaction in taking his life, that is vengeful and only G-d has the right to choose life or death.

118

 Feb 22, 2010 at 02:30 PM Rebbe Says:

Reply to #112  
Anonymous Says:

There is no one available today on the madreigah of the "sanhedrin" who can carry out such an "onesh"! WE don't have sanhedrin today and in most cases WE can't even find an honest Beis Din as in the case with child molesters who protect their "own" rabbonim instead of the children. In addition, we find time and time again that some of the Rabbonim WE trust are not trustworthy as in the case of Tropper, and even r"l the father that abused his own daughter still called Rabbi.

So WHO do you think is wise enough and honest enough to come to the conclusion that they have the "seyata d'shmaya" to meet out this sentence??????

Get over yourself, we are not living in the times of the Talmud where WE were governed by neviim, tzadikim and malachim!

"There is no one on the madreigah of the "sanhedrin" who can carry out such an
"onesh". Rebuttal: The death sentence of cop killers and other murderers pursuant
to a trial with judicial review is warranted without the Sanhedrin. You are woefully
misinformed. The administration of justice with capital punishment does not
depend on the Sanhedrin or any rabbinical court. Don't you understand that
you live in the United States of America which has its own legal system?
Intelligent and religious people reject your extreme belief in anarchy which is
against the Torah. You obviously do not understand this case. Grossman was
tried in an American court. Gentile courts are entitled to put murderers to death.
Your references to rabbis adjudicating cases of child molestation is irrelevant to
this case. Your allegations about the reliability of Bais Din are likewise irrelevant.
Certainly claims made by Lubavitch cult members on this issue are not reliable.
Therefore, you should stop following Lubavitch which distorts the Torah.
You must face reality and become a law-abiding citizen. Repent and place
your trust in HASHEM.

119

 Feb 22, 2010 at 02:55 PM DAAS TORAH Says:

Reply to #117  
Anonymous Says:

No one is arguing the gravity of the crime. No one wanted to see Grossman go free. But one must also consider the "gravity" of the crime committed to the child Martin Grossman who was at a mental disadvantage, was abused and living in an unstable and dysfunctional environment. The accused was not a person who thoughtfully out of evil and viciousness went out looking to hurt or kill anyone. The entire circumstance and scenario was a chain reaction of an adult child in pain, on drugs, going out with a friend to do something he shouldn't that went totally out of control.

Grossman the adult understood that he did wrong, he understood that the crime was horrific and he understood the consequence of his crime and lived with it for 25 years. He never expected to be set free, and never expected anyone to try and help him. Prison became his home and he had more structure there than he probably ever had at home.

WE all understand the gravity of the crime, we also understand that the circumstances and that is why we also have compassion for the criminal. There was no victory or satisfaction in taking his life, that is vengeful and only G-d has the right to choose life or death.

"No one is arguing the gravity of the crime..." That is not true. There are numerous
posts here still questioning the basic charge that Grossman committed murder.
Those delusional individuals have incorrectly attempted to show that the court
in Florida really could not prove that Grossman committed murder. Stop this nonsense. Decent people are fed up with such untruthful pleas and irksome
rationalizations. Thus, you're absolutely wrong. There are people who have
attempted to downplay the gravity of the crime. You are also guilty of this same
distortion. Consequently, your ad hominem attacks directed at Rabbi Hoffman
are beyond the pale. You have no right to make a martyr out this murderer.
"Only God has the right to choose life or death." You speak like a simpleton.
Almighty God has ordained that mankind must punish evildoers through
a judicial system with a trial followed by judicial review. Otherwise anarchy ensues.
Capital punishment is mandated in the Torah for capital crimes.

120

 Feb 22, 2010 at 03:03 PM OMG Says:

Defenders of Rabbi Hoffman
Earlier this morning an interesting episode played out right in front of my eyes, which could be used in our discussion as a case in point, five times a week I power walk six miles, during that time I have ample time to contemplate about God and myself and any other issue that comes up from day to day. With the understanding that my body is a temple and I need to take care with exercise and healthy nourishments and supplements.
As I was walking I noticed that around two, three hundred feet ahead this older gentleman is slowly walking towards me, it was self evident that this gentleman recently suffered a stroke, the way he moving his hand and his feet, I could see that he is making a herculean attempted to follow doctor orders to exercises, as I got closer to the man I would say around sixty, seventy feet I notice that he took out a cigarette from his packet and lit it up. As we got closer I instinctively pulled my t-shirt over my face as to not inhale second hand smoke.
As I continued my walk I asked myself why would that man who knows that smoking by itself is a killer but smoking while you do cardio it actually worse than just smoking, you are inhaling smoke as your blood via your heart is pumping and as your longs is expending you are inhaling poison, I am sure that if his doctor knew what he was doing he would tell him rather don’t walk then smoking as you exercise, because this combination could be fatal to you. The same could be said in this case taking Torah and mixing it with your political views as Rabbi Hoffman did could be fatal, and I don’t care if this is a Rabbi, killing for revenge by a family member is somewhat understood under Torah law, but you as a bystander pull up your t-shirt so you don’t get contaminated by the second hand smoke.

121

 Feb 22, 2010 at 03:03 PM DAAS TORAG Says:

Reply to #101  
Anonymous Says:

Rabbi Hoffman is wrong! The false testimony of Charles Brewer at Grossman's testimony, and the underhanded deal that Brewer worked out with the State's Attorney's Office to eleicit his false testimony, is just one example of went wrong with this trial. There are laws in this country, Rabbi Hoffman! And if Capital punishment is to be metted out, it must be done in accordance with the law. Rabbi Hoffman's emotional feeling do not dictate the rules and laws of capital punishment. I know Vos is Nais will not publish my comment, and that is fine with me, as long as they publish Rabbi Hoffman's incorrect and incorent views.

"There are laws in this country." That is right. You are therefore required to obey
the law. Your emotional outburst here is ridiculous. Nobody impeded your side's
efforts to exonerate the accused. Your unsuccessful efforts resulted from the
overwhelming incriminating evidence. Don't you want police to protect you and
other innocent citizens. Cop killing is a heinous crime. This has nothing to do with
race, religion or creed. All murderers are subject to the death penalty.
After the death sentence, they will never murder again. That is an absolute and
just deterrent. I do hope that the deceased repented. According to the Torah,
Almighty God accepts sincere repentance. But that is in the heavenly domain.
God will judge the deceased fairly. Baruch Dayan Emes.

122

 Feb 22, 2010 at 03:05 PM rebbe needs a rebbe Says:

Reply to #118  
Rebbe Says:

"There is no one on the madreigah of the "sanhedrin" who can carry out such an
"onesh". Rebuttal: The death sentence of cop killers and other murderers pursuant
to a trial with judicial review is warranted without the Sanhedrin. You are woefully
misinformed. The administration of justice with capital punishment does not
depend on the Sanhedrin or any rabbinical court. Don't you understand that
you live in the United States of America which has its own legal system?
Intelligent and religious people reject your extreme belief in anarchy which is
against the Torah. You obviously do not understand this case. Grossman was
tried in an American court. Gentile courts are entitled to put murderers to death.
Your references to rabbis adjudicating cases of child molestation is irrelevant to
this case. Your allegations about the reliability of Bais Din are likewise irrelevant.
Certainly claims made by Lubavitch cult members on this issue are not reliable.
Therefore, you should stop following Lubavitch which distorts the Torah.
You must face reality and become a law-abiding citizen. Repent and place
your trust in HASHEM.

Rebbe (Hoffman)-YOU are woefully misinformed. In this medinas shel chesed all who stand accused of a crime have multiple avenues to challenge their charges. Based on the abilities of their legal council they could potentially get off with a reduced sentence. Grossman had public defenders. Whatever the ultimate outcome of the courts was, there were other ways to save him via clemency, pardon etc... The point is the American legal system encourages appeal. The rules of Jewish Halchah supersede American jurist prudence when it comes to death penalty.Your wrong. Ask bigger people than you. Had you done that before you started you would not have caused this fiasco.YOU obviously do not understand this case. Your strongly held convictions are WRONG no matter how many times you scream.That you have an anti- chabad mentality and advertise it only shows how small you really are. On one hand you talk halchah and on the other you slam a whole community. your words are tainted and your thoughts are krum. Do teshuvah. Martin did. you still have a chance.

123

 Feb 22, 2010 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #118  
Rebbe Says:

"There is no one on the madreigah of the "sanhedrin" who can carry out such an
"onesh". Rebuttal: The death sentence of cop killers and other murderers pursuant
to a trial with judicial review is warranted without the Sanhedrin. You are woefully
misinformed. The administration of justice with capital punishment does not
depend on the Sanhedrin or any rabbinical court. Don't you understand that
you live in the United States of America which has its own legal system?
Intelligent and religious people reject your extreme belief in anarchy which is
against the Torah. You obviously do not understand this case. Grossman was
tried in an American court. Gentile courts are entitled to put murderers to death.
Your references to rabbis adjudicating cases of child molestation is irrelevant to
this case. Your allegations about the reliability of Bais Din are likewise irrelevant.
Certainly claims made by Lubavitch cult members on this issue are not reliable.
Therefore, you should stop following Lubavitch which distorts the Torah.
You must face reality and become a law-abiding citizen. Repent and place
your trust in HASHEM.

Your sinas chinam shows through loud and clear!!! And YOU do not have to teach ME or anyone else about the UNITED STATES and its judicial system. In case YOU were not aware, MOST states do not have a "death penalty". Therefore it is quiet a disputable debate whether this is warranted!!!! It is an opinion of local people that make it possible and not Hashem who allows them freedom of choice.

And maybe it is YOU who obviously don't understand this case, as you seem to not understand your fellow Jew to the degree that you would call them Cult members. Your rishus is also showing and therefore YOU are not a reliable judge on this or any other subject, you my friend are a sinner accountable no doubt for numerous counts of loshon horah and richilus especially where Lubavitcher chasidim are involved.

124

 Feb 22, 2010 at 03:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
DAAS TORAH Says:

"No one is arguing the gravity of the crime..." That is not true. There are numerous
posts here still questioning the basic charge that Grossman committed murder.
Those delusional individuals have incorrectly attempted to show that the court
in Florida really could not prove that Grossman committed murder. Stop this nonsense. Decent people are fed up with such untruthful pleas and irksome
rationalizations. Thus, you're absolutely wrong. There are people who have
attempted to downplay the gravity of the crime. You are also guilty of this same
distortion. Consequently, your ad hominem attacks directed at Rabbi Hoffman
are beyond the pale. You have no right to make a martyr out this murderer.
"Only God has the right to choose life or death." You speak like a simpleton.
Almighty God has ordained that mankind must punish evildoers through
a judicial system with a trial followed by judicial review. Otherwise anarchy ensues.
Capital punishment is mandated in the Torah for capital crimes.

What the Spinka rav did was a Federal felony, what kind of punishment did others who got involved in his case plea for him? Should he not be punished as any other embezzler, tax evader or criminal who breaks the law and thumbs his nose at the judicial system?

Please DT, in your need to be right, your EGO outweighs your position. No one tried to make a martyr out of Grossman, that was not the intent nor the outcome. And no one, not one Rav, emailer or caller, tried to deny the fact that he committed the crime.

If you want to teach Torah, take some courses in education because you certainly can not teach nor debate your way out of a paper bag.

125

 Feb 22, 2010 at 03:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #118  
Rebbe Says:

"There is no one on the madreigah of the "sanhedrin" who can carry out such an
"onesh". Rebuttal: The death sentence of cop killers and other murderers pursuant
to a trial with judicial review is warranted without the Sanhedrin. You are woefully
misinformed. The administration of justice with capital punishment does not
depend on the Sanhedrin or any rabbinical court. Don't you understand that
you live in the United States of America which has its own legal system?
Intelligent and religious people reject your extreme belief in anarchy which is
against the Torah. You obviously do not understand this case. Grossman was
tried in an American court. Gentile courts are entitled to put murderers to death.
Your references to rabbis adjudicating cases of child molestation is irrelevant to
this case. Your allegations about the reliability of Bais Din are likewise irrelevant.
Certainly claims made by Lubavitch cult members on this issue are not reliable.
Therefore, you should stop following Lubavitch which distorts the Torah.
You must face reality and become a law-abiding citizen. Repent and place
your trust in HASHEM.

Yeah I know the American legal system, judges runs their courtrooms as they see fit!!! I know from the SMR case. In addition, I know that the killer of Yankel Rosenbaum is still breathing, eating, drinking and sleeping as is OJ. Yeah I know that the cops couldn't do a thing in the Crown Heights riot because the "mayor" said "let them vent" and instead of doing the job cops were hired to do, our justice system says that cops have to listen to the Mayor.

Yeah, do you want to say Justice prevails?????

127

 Feb 22, 2010 at 05:26 PM Anonymous Says:

I found many points in the show very disturbing.I'll mention 3 of them1)that a jew must do anything he can even if there are little or no chances of sucess,rabbi hoffman never answered that.2)that he accused yossi gestetner of saying it's antisemetism.Yossi never even remotely implied it.3)selective qouting from halacha.First saying were not going by halacha but by american judical rules.But then qouting that it doesn't help doing tsuvah to get your sentence removed etc...

128

 Feb 22, 2010 at 05:36 PM Professor Says:

Reply to #125  
Anonymous Says:

Yeah I know the American legal system, judges runs their courtrooms as they see fit!!! I know from the SMR case. In addition, I know that the killer of Yankel Rosenbaum is still breathing, eating, drinking and sleeping as is OJ. Yeah I know that the cops couldn't do a thing in the Crown Heights riot because the "mayor" said "let them vent" and instead of doing the job cops were hired to do, our justice system says that cops have to listen to the Mayor.

Yeah, do you want to say Justice prevails?????

....."do you want to say justice prevails?" Yes, indeed. In this case a cop killer
was put to death. In fact, I want all cop killers put to death--of course--following
a proper jury trial with judicial review.

You bring up Crown Heights? If you're concerned about that, you should
definitely be in favor of the death penalty to rid society of vicious murderers.
(What happened there was tragic. This system is not perfect. But it is---or at least
has been--the best human system ever devised.) What does all that have to do
with Grossman's death sentence? There was a fair trial and ample time to appeal---
25 years. May Almighty God deliver us from further turmoil.

129

 Feb 22, 2010 at 05:39 PM change your name daas torah Says:

Reply to #119  
DAAS TORAH Says:

"No one is arguing the gravity of the crime..." That is not true. There are numerous
posts here still questioning the basic charge that Grossman committed murder.
Those delusional individuals have incorrectly attempted to show that the court
in Florida really could not prove that Grossman committed murder. Stop this nonsense. Decent people are fed up with such untruthful pleas and irksome
rationalizations. Thus, you're absolutely wrong. There are people who have
attempted to downplay the gravity of the crime. You are also guilty of this same
distortion. Consequently, your ad hominem attacks directed at Rabbi Hoffman
are beyond the pale. You have no right to make a martyr out this murderer.
"Only God has the right to choose life or death." You speak like a simpleton.
Almighty God has ordained that mankind must punish evildoers through
a judicial system with a trial followed by judicial review. Otherwise anarchy ensues.
Capital punishment is mandated in the Torah for capital crimes.

"Stop this nonsense. Decent people are fed up with such untruthful pleas and irksome rationalizations. Thus, you're absolutely wrong. There are people who have
attempted to downplay the gravity of the crime. You are also guilty of this same
distortion. Consequently, your ad hominem attacks directed at Rabbi Hoffman
are beyond the pale. You have no right to make a martyr out this murderer."

Daas torah please change your post name. there is nothing decent about you. You bring dishonor to daas torah. The real daas torah not daas hoffman asked us to fight for Grossman's life. Your argument is with the few who on their own are making a Tzadik out of Grossman. Your deeply held conviction that Grossman should die is misguided at best and insane at worst. Stop the hatred learn igras Moshe talk to your daas Torah and see how off the mark you are. I will keep fighting your every foolish post with facts not emotion..There are several camps here. The one we klal yisroel followed was the Askonim led by the Gedolim. Your using the few who are making grossman a hero to knock the many who simply followed their Daas torah correctly. You should too and stop yelling already.

130

 Feb 22, 2010 at 05:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #127  
Anonymous Says:

I found many points in the show very disturbing.I'll mention 3 of them1)that a jew must do anything he can even if there are little or no chances of sucess,rabbi hoffman never answered that.2)that he accused yossi gestetner of saying it's antisemetism.Yossi never even remotely implied it.3)selective qouting from halacha.First saying were not going by halacha but by american judical rules.But then qouting that it doesn't help doing tsuvah to get your sentence removed etc...

You do not know English well enough to participate in this discussion.
Martin Grossman was tried and found guilty of murder. Get over it.

131

 Feb 22, 2010 at 06:50 PM daas torah? Says:

I was quite impressed with how poorly Hoffman responded to the questions. I really expected better! Last week he claimed that 85% of the rabbis were backing Shabsai Tzvi and therefore you see that daas torah could be mistaken. First of all, where does he the # 85%? Secondly, I guess Hoffman feels that “he” may correct their mistake! He also constantly digressed from the topic when he was in a corner. For example, when asked why he didn't speak with the Agudah to understand their view before writing his article he had no answer. If Agudah is usually so good, how could he write against them without calling them? Or, when asked about daas torah he cheaply picked at the mention of the pope instead of answering the quetion. He never mentioned the names of the other rabbonim who agree with his “daas torah” The pope only strengthens the view that it didn't minimize the standing of the Jews if the pope also called! And even if it did, we know that we listen to our rabbis over our politicians for obvious reasons! Also, how does Hoffman accused our Gedolim of giving a psak without doing the proper research? I think it's irrelevant if Grossman was guilty or not, but was it right to call!

132

 Feb 22, 2010 at 06:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #130  
Anonymous Says:

You do not know English well enough to participate in this discussion.
Martin Grossman was tried and found guilty of murder. Get over it.

I guess you had nothing to say in response to the points made,seeing your silence on them.

133

 Feb 22, 2010 at 07:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #128  
Professor Says:

....."do you want to say justice prevails?" Yes, indeed. In this case a cop killer
was put to death. In fact, I want all cop killers put to death--of course--following
a proper jury trial with judicial review.

You bring up Crown Heights? If you're concerned about that, you should
definitely be in favor of the death penalty to rid society of vicious murderers.
(What happened there was tragic. This system is not perfect. But it is---or at least
has been--the best human system ever devised.) What does all that have to do
with Grossman's death sentence? There was a fair trial and ample time to appeal---
25 years. May Almighty God deliver us from further turmoil.

Profesor???? Please don't compare a park ranger with a police officer, it does not equate. The only reason everyone is calling him a cop killer is to make it sound so severe and incriminating. And for that matter I don't want anyone put to death. In addition there are many instances of crooked cops and cops that "kill" without cause. So lets not all of a sudden forget that.

It is not OUR job as JEWS to promote the death penalty, it will only backfire more and more on our own people, and once executed no matter what new evidence comes forward it cannot be reversed.

Let me ask you something Professor .. At the time of the murder there were 3 people involved and present. There was the victim who can no longer comment. Then there was the friend who cut his own deal and was as guilty as Grossman and there was Grossman who had an IQ of 77 and was high at the time. How do we know that the "friend" (i forgot his name) was not the one who shot Peggy and because of Grossman's state of mind and low IQ, put the gun in his hand and convinced him that he did it. Do we know for sure that didn't happen? NO we weren't there and the friend took his own life possibly out guilt and shame.

134

 Feb 22, 2010 at 07:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #131  
daas torah? Says:

I was quite impressed with how poorly Hoffman responded to the questions. I really expected better! Last week he claimed that 85% of the rabbis were backing Shabsai Tzvi and therefore you see that daas torah could be mistaken. First of all, where does he the # 85%? Secondly, I guess Hoffman feels that “he” may correct their mistake! He also constantly digressed from the topic when he was in a corner. For example, when asked why he didn't speak with the Agudah to understand their view before writing his article he had no answer. If Agudah is usually so good, how could he write against them without calling them? Or, when asked about daas torah he cheaply picked at the mention of the pope instead of answering the quetion. He never mentioned the names of the other rabbonim who agree with his “daas torah” The pope only strengthens the view that it didn't minimize the standing of the Jews if the pope also called! And even if it did, we know that we listen to our rabbis over our politicians for obvious reasons! Also, how does Hoffman accused our Gedolim of giving a psak without doing the proper research? I think it's irrelevant if Grossman was guilty or not, but was it right to call!

He also didn't answer the question who HIS rav is and whether he discussed with him.

135

 Feb 23, 2010 at 12:21 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #133  
Anonymous Says:

Profesor???? Please don't compare a park ranger with a police officer, it does not equate. The only reason everyone is calling him a cop killer is to make it sound so severe and incriminating. And for that matter I don't want anyone put to death. In addition there are many instances of crooked cops and cops that "kill" without cause. So lets not all of a sudden forget that.

It is not OUR job as JEWS to promote the death penalty, it will only backfire more and more on our own people, and once executed no matter what new evidence comes forward it cannot be reversed.

Let me ask you something Professor .. At the time of the murder there were 3 people involved and present. There was the victim who can no longer comment. Then there was the friend who cut his own deal and was as guilty as Grossman and there was Grossman who had an IQ of 77 and was high at the time. How do we know that the "friend" (i forgot his name) was not the one who shot Peggy and because of Grossman's state of mind and low IQ, put the gun in his hand and convinced him that he did it. Do we know for sure that didn't happen? NO we weren't there and the friend took his own life possibly out guilt and shame.

"Don't compare a park ranger with a police officer...." What an idiotic comment.
Once again you're trying to defend a cop killer who was properly put to death.
Does that bother you? Too bad. Decent people despise violent criminals and
especially police officers. You're a hypocrite and your so-called religiosity is
worthless. You violate Torah. The Torah does mandate capital punishment. Read
Rabbi Yair Hoffman's excellent article. In any event, there is nothing that can be done now. It is stupid for you and your delinquent comrades to advocate anarchy.
"How do we know who shot the victim?" See: here is a blogger who still believes
that Grossman should have been granted clemency. I thought you just wanted to
commute the death sentence to life imprisonment. Your rationalizations are
childish. Those who still attempt to defend that murderer are held in contempt.

136

 Feb 23, 2010 at 01:52 AM URIM VEH TUMIM Says:

In rebuttal to the false report that cop killer Grossman was not competent because of
a low I.Q. be advised of the following facts:

1) He asked the policewoman not to report him because he was on parole.
2) He buried the gun immediately after killing her in cold blood.
3) He changed all his clothes and put everything in a washing machine
to remove the blood.
4) He changed all four tires on his car so police would not be able to trace
him by tread marks on the grass.

If he had such a low I.Q.---as erroneously contended---how did he
have the saykhel to accomplish all the objectives cited above?

Answer: He was mentally competent and able to plot his moves methodically. Those who argue about this are blinded by a primitive ideology
which obscures reality as all objective observers here have now verified.
Baruch Dayan Emes.

137

 Feb 23, 2010 at 04:07 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
FBF Says:

One of the issues is the aftermath. The large levaya in Monsey. The learning of Mishnayos etc... This is my issue. We are making him a hero. Agudah, YI etc... had good intentions but something went wrong here.

If you listen to the interview Dov is simply in bed with Agudah. With the Lazar/Greenfield election he had made some deal with someone so he is defending the Agudah position.

My mishnayis says "alu devarim she'odom oichel parosaihem bi'olom hazeh vikeren kayamis lo li'lolom habah...... Levia hamais" Where does your mishnayis say there are exceptions? Chazkiyahu hamelech was melevah his father, an idolator, he used a cheap coffin, but he wasn't mezalzel the mais or the levaya. Instaed of relying on your krum seichel trying learning a little Torah on the subject. Most issues are covered.

138

 Feb 23, 2010 at 04:29 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #136  
URIM VEH TUMIM Says:

In rebuttal to the false report that cop killer Grossman was not competent because of
a low I.Q. be advised of the following facts:

1) He asked the policewoman not to report him because he was on parole.
2) He buried the gun immediately after killing her in cold blood.
3) He changed all his clothes and put everything in a washing machine
to remove the blood.
4) He changed all four tires on his car so police would not be able to trace
him by tread marks on the grass.

If he had such a low I.Q.---as erroneously contended---how did he
have the saykhel to accomplish all the objectives cited above?

Answer: He was mentally competent and able to plot his moves methodically. Those who argue about this are blinded by a primitive ideology
which obscures reality as all objective observers here have now verified.
Baruch Dayan Emes.

You forgot to add he had a friend there the whole time who was helping him.p.s.how do you know these details from his friend's testimony who did it to get off easy and then commited suicide out of guilt.

139

 Feb 23, 2010 at 03:49 PM Shmuel Says:

Reply to #136  
URIM VEH TUMIM Says:

In rebuttal to the false report that cop killer Grossman was not competent because of
a low I.Q. be advised of the following facts:

1) He asked the policewoman not to report him because he was on parole.
2) He buried the gun immediately after killing her in cold blood.
3) He changed all his clothes and put everything in a washing machine
to remove the blood.
4) He changed all four tires on his car so police would not be able to trace
him by tread marks on the grass.

If he had such a low I.Q.---as erroneously contended---how did he
have the saykhel to accomplish all the objectives cited above?

Answer: He was mentally competent and able to plot his moves methodically. Those who argue about this are blinded by a primitive ideology
which obscures reality as all objective observers here have now verified.
Baruch Dayan Emes.

Great message. Those silly supporters of Grossman---that dirty murderer---are
out of their minds. They don't represent Jews. They have their nerve attacking
Rabbi Hoffman and all the other sane people in society who demand law and order.

140

 Feb 23, 2010 at 04:00 PM Rabbi Says:

It is true that fanatics actually made a martyr out of Grossman, the Roytsayakh/
At the Levahyah---funeral for the executed murderer---he was described as
"Hatohor Veh Hakodosh". That means: The pure and holy one. These descriptions
were uttered about the deceased----a convicted cop killer. If that is not making
a martyr out of a murderer----I don't know what is considered doing so. Rabbi
Hoffman's analysis and commentary is once again confirmed. There was an
unjustified attempt to lionize a wicked man. That sort of behavior is against the
Torah. Such false adulation violates the principles of a proper eulogy.
False praise should never be uttered during a eulogy. It actually harms the niftar---
the deceased. Baruch Dayan Emes.

141

 Feb 23, 2010 at 07:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #135  
Anonymous Says:

"Don't compare a park ranger with a police officer...." What an idiotic comment.
Once again you're trying to defend a cop killer who was properly put to death.
Does that bother you? Too bad. Decent people despise violent criminals and
especially police officers. You're a hypocrite and your so-called religiosity is
worthless. You violate Torah. The Torah does mandate capital punishment. Read
Rabbi Yair Hoffman's excellent article. In any event, there is nothing that can be done now. It is stupid for you and your delinquent comrades to advocate anarchy.
"How do we know who shot the victim?" See: here is a blogger who still believes
that Grossman should have been granted clemency. I thought you just wanted to
commute the death sentence to life imprisonment. Your rationalizations are
childish. Those who still attempt to defend that murderer are held in contempt.

The Torah also says "an eye for an eye". Do you follow that halacha? Each time you fanatics call him a cop killer, you try to bring to mind a pre-meditated murder where the killer hates cops and looks for opportunities to kill them.

No one argues the fact that HE WAS WRONG!!!! And yes we all wanted clemency not a pardon.

142

 Feb 23, 2010 at 10:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #139  
Shmuel Says:

Great message. Those silly supporters of Grossman---that dirty murderer---are
out of their minds. They don't represent Jews. They have their nerve attacking
Rabbi Hoffman and all the other sane people in society who demand law and order.

FYI, you just claimed that the Agudah, headed by the Noviminske Rav is out of their minds. That is just one of the groups of Rabbonim that were silly supporters of Grossman. So in your own words the Noviminske shlita is out of his mind and Hoffman is sane. What is wrong with this picture???? This does not compute!

143

 Feb 23, 2010 at 10:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #139  
Shmuel Says:

Great message. Those silly supporters of Grossman---that dirty murderer---are
out of their minds. They don't represent Jews. They have their nerve attacking
Rabbi Hoffman and all the other sane people in society who demand law and order.

I would be very curious to know if Hoffman's Rav, Rav Belsky agrees with him or with the Agudah and the other Rabbinical organizations?

144

 Feb 24, 2010 at 12:13 AM a b Says:

has anyone considered that per the mitzvah of dinim that bnei noach have they are bound to execute Even a Yid for retzicha. before you digitally scream at me ,think if their chiuv of enforcing dinim is only foropther bnei noach and yidden are exemt from their laws?

145

 Feb 24, 2010 at 12:39 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #144  
a b Says:

has anyone considered that per the mitzvah of dinim that bnei noach have they are bound to execute Even a Yid for retzicha. before you digitally scream at me ,think if their chiuv of enforcing dinim is only foropther bnei noach and yidden are exemt from their laws?

What makes you think that's not so?

146

 Feb 24, 2010 at 10:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #144  
a b Says:

has anyone considered that per the mitzvah of dinim that bnei noach have they are bound to execute Even a Yid for retzicha. before you digitally scream at me ,think if their chiuv of enforcing dinim is only foropther bnei noach and yidden are exemt from their laws?

For all those who keep promoting the death penalty and backing it with Torah and Halacha, when was the last time a Beis Din decide upon a death sentence?????

147

 Feb 24, 2010 at 03:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #141  
Anonymous Says:

The Torah also says "an eye for an eye". Do you follow that halacha? Each time you fanatics call him a cop killer, you try to bring to mind a pre-meditated murder where the killer hates cops and looks for opportunities to kill them.

No one argues the fact that HE WAS WRONG!!!! And yes we all wanted clemency not a pardon.

"The Torah says an eye for an eye." Do you follow that halacha?" No,
idiot. This cop killer was properly executed for the brutal murder of
a police officer pursuant to jury trial and extensive judicial review lasting
25 years. Do you consider that "eye for eye" justice? Is that your silly
opinion of American jurisprudence? Of course you are wrong.

148

 Feb 24, 2010 at 04:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #146  
Anonymous Says:

For all those who keep promoting the death penalty and backing it with Torah and Halacha, when was the last time a Beis Din decide upon a death sentence?????

"when was the last time a Beis Din decided upon death sentence?"
You just emerged from a liquor store? This is about a murder case in Florida. Florida is in the United States Of America.

149

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