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New York - Yerushalayim Free Loan Fund Set Up In Memory Of Executed Inmate

Published on: March 3, 2010 06:03 PM
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New York - VIN News has confirmed that the Tzedakah organization Kollel Shomrei Hachomos has established a free loan gamach in Yerushalyaim in memory of Martin Grossman,  whose execution by the state of Florida on February 16 for a crime he committed 25 years ago, caused a massive email campaign to Florida Governor Charlie Crist. 

Kollel Shomrei Hachomos has also arranged for Kaddish to be said and mishnayos to be learned for the entire year in memory of Martin Grossman.



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1

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:15 PM Anonymous Says:

May his soul live in Gan Eden forever, with Moshe Rabbeinu, and may your children have the zechut to reach the madreiga of kedusha that this zaddik had when he was niftar.

2

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:18 PM Anonymous Says:

that's a grate thng and a big mitzva, may his neshoma have a aliya!

3

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:19 PM Good one! Says:

But I think Purim is over, guys.

4

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:20 PM Actually Says:

He did leave a child. She was given up for adoption. I pray she'll never find out that her father was a killer.

5

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:22 PM Anonymous Says:

What a nice thing, how about doing it here in NY?

6

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Good idea,he needs zechusim in the next world.

7

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Really sick fund-raising gimmick! It's one thing to save a man's life, and another to glamorize his memory. Sadly, some will be taken in by this silly campaign.

8

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:28 PM Dave Says:

Disgusting.

9

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Have people lost all sense of good taste and decency? Why is common sense such a depleted commodity in these days? Is there no honorable deceased Jew to honor with this gemach or are criminals our only role-models these days?

10

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:37 PM Nuch-Ah-Neshamah Says:

Imy'H Reb Meir Baal Hanes Zy'u Will Assist Him In Bais Din Shel Ma'aluh!

11

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:39 PM Rachel Says:

Oh, how Christian of us. We're now naming our charities after murderers. How soon before we start a children's clothing g'mach in honor of Yudi Kolko?

12

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:43 PM Ma. Rabbi Says:

I think this is most appropiate. Martin A"H left behind no children so it is only right that this organization is saying Kaddish and learning for his Neshama.

13

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:47 PM shani109@aol.com Says:

What next, will they name a yeshiva after him to? He is a criminal, a murderer, since when do we exalt a murderer? Are they all deranged?

14

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:48 PM Anonymous Says:

This is sick.

15

 Mar 03, 2010 at 06:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Have people lost all sense of good taste and decency? Why is common sense such a depleted commodity in these days? Is there no honorable deceased Jew to honor with this gemach or are criminals our only role-models these days?

Just wonder if you talk the same way about mr polard?

16

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:05 PM Anonymous Says:

What about how the family of the person he killed feels. Seeing the name of their child's murderer being tossed about like a martyr is sure to cause them pain and anguish.

How do we feel when we see a terrorist being welcomed as a hero by his sponsors. It pains and anguish us when it happens. Why are we doing this to others.

An effort, whether right or wrong, was made to stave off the death penalty, it was not successful, now maybe we should let this issue die. The guy did a really bad thing, whether you feel it was right or wrong that he should have gotten his punishment does not change what he did. This is not a case of discrimination. Let G-d be the one to judge him now and to decide his repentance. If you want to do something do it quietly without fanfare, without making him into a martyr. It will not offend the people whose lives he damaged, and it will probably end up being the bigger merit for him.

17

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

Just wonder if you talk the same way about mr polard?

Pollard is also a convicted criminal with things in Israel named after him (illegally constructed buildings, no less), but he's still alive

18

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:09 PM Disgraceful, but not surprising Says:

Considering that this 'charity' is headquartered in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, this nonsense is not surprising. But it is a disgrace nevertheless.

They should be boycotted.

P.S. Why don't they start a fund in memmory of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg?

19

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:10 PM Anonymous Says:

surely there are more honorable people to name a gemach for...
Even if they do say kaddish & learn Leiluy his neshomo (which I approve of) I dont think they should be shouting it from the roof tops.

20

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:11 PM Anonymous Says:

It is clear to me that Martin Grossman had zechusim we don't know about. We are blind people yet everyone thinks they know everything. Wake up call: we know nothing.

21

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:12 PM Shock Says:

How dare they dirty the name of the Holy Tanah Rab Meir Baal Haneiss by associating their Tzedaka with a murderer???!!!

22

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:13 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #8  
Dave Says:

Disgusting.

Dave, you lost me completely.

I agree that we shouldn't make a martyr out of him nor should we go overboard in making him what he was not, but that doesn't mean that we should deprive him of what he was. For all practical purposes he was a Baal Teshuvah who regretted his crime and did what he could to be good. Can't you “Fargin” him the saying of Kaddish and learning for his Neshama? Nobody had asked you to pay for it, which usually costs a few thousand dollars; but if the Kolel wants to do it out of the goodness of their heart, then who are you to call it disgusting? I hope you take back your disgusting comment.

BTW, who is going to say Kaddish for you? Will your children say Kaddish for you? Will you pay the Kollel the 2-5 thousand dollars so that someone should say Kaddish for your Neshomah?

If you don't believe in G-d then that's another thing, but to come on a Frum site and tell us that saying Kaddish and learning for his Neshama is disgusting, is unforgivable.

23

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:14 PM Anonymous Says:

b'mokom sh'baal t'shuva omdim ain tzaddikim g'murim omdin.

24

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:22 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #13  
shani109@aol.com Says:

What next, will they name a yeshiva after him to? He is a criminal, a murderer, since when do we exalt a murderer? Are they all deranged?

Saying Kaddish and learning for a Neshama is not exalting anyone. Please get it straight. Children say Kaddish and learn for the Neshomah of their father no different if he was the biggest Tzaddik or the biggest Rosha. Please familiarize yourself with what Kaddish is before you talk.

25

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:25 PM all for the money Says:

its all about money

26

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:32 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #22  
Askupeh Says:

Dave, you lost me completely.

I agree that we shouldn't make a martyr out of him nor should we go overboard in making him what he was not, but that doesn't mean that we should deprive him of what he was. For all practical purposes he was a Baal Teshuvah who regretted his crime and did what he could to be good. Can't you “Fargin” him the saying of Kaddish and learning for his Neshama? Nobody had asked you to pay for it, which usually costs a few thousand dollars; but if the Kolel wants to do it out of the goodness of their heart, then who are you to call it disgusting? I hope you take back your disgusting comment.

BTW, who is going to say Kaddish for you? Will your children say Kaddish for you? Will you pay the Kollel the 2-5 thousand dollars so that someone should say Kaddish for your Neshomah?

If you don't believe in G-d then that's another thing, but to come on a Frum site and tell us that saying Kaddish and learning for his Neshama is disgusting, is unforgivable.

You want to say Kaddish for him, say Kaddish for him.

You want to learn for him, learn for him.

Sending a press release honoring a murderer, and declaring that you are creating a charity in his honor, that is disgusting.

27

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Disgraceful, but not surprising Says:

Considering that this 'charity' is headquartered in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, this nonsense is not surprising. But it is a disgrace nevertheless.

They should be boycotted.

P.S. Why don't they start a fund in memmory of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg?

How about Maran Harav Arnold Rothstein A"H
or Maran Harav Bugsy Siegel A"H

28

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:42 PM Anonymous Says:

At this point he is for sure clear...as MISAH is MECHAPER..

29

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:52 PM Forgiveness Says:

Lets all be real here, Yes he did commit a horrible crime.
Now moving forward, He did regret.
We should not judge him.
G-D will.
He was a jew, and we are jewish, forgive him completely.
That is what the Torah teaches us.
No question asked.

30

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:53 PM Sick Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

May his soul live in Gan Eden forever, with Moshe Rabbeinu, and may your children have the zechut to reach the madreiga of kedusha that this zaddik had when he was niftar.

Imagine the jewish outcry if the goyim established a gemach in honor of the guy who killed old man Mr Gerstle in Washington Heights!!!

31

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:54 PM Anonymous Says:

I think that whoever thought of this is a frekin idiot. There are so many good and decent people that are sick or die for no reason who deserve such a zechus yet you name someting special like this for a murdere?

32

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:55 PM What? Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

May his soul live in Gan Eden forever, with Moshe Rabbeinu, and may your children have the zechut to reach the madreiga of kedusha that this zaddik had when he was niftar.

I’m going to make a donation to a charity in honor of the woman he murdered, and I’m certainly not going to do anything for a charity in her killer’s name! It’s official, we’ve lost our minds.

33

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:56 PM Anonymous Says:

I think it's gross beyond measure to set up anything in memory of a murderer.

34

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:56 PM Embarrassed Jew Says:

Once again members of the frum community have gone out of their way to embarrass the rest of us. When will it stop?

35

 Mar 03, 2010 at 07:57 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #26  
Dave Says:

You want to say Kaddish for him, say Kaddish for him.

You want to learn for him, learn for him.

Sending a press release honoring a murderer, and declaring that you are creating a charity in his honor, that is disgusting.

You made a general statement "disgusting"; and didn't bother to differentiate between Kaddish and conferring an honor. These two things are Kerchoik Mizrach and Maariv. It's enough that you showed zero emotion and couldn't be moved before his execution. For that we can debate until tomorrow. But to call it disgusting when someone wants to say Kaddish for his Yiddesha Neshoma, that is unpardonable.

BTW, I was the one debating you in many comments before the execution, but stayed anonymous so as not to compromise anyone in sending letters because it is I that suggested it.

You told me then that you’re Jewish which I couldn’t believe how it is possible; now I’ll ask you: Do you believe in G-d?

If your answer is in the negative then there is no purpose in debating you on this, and if you’re a decent man, you should have recused yourself on commenting on this.

36

 Mar 03, 2010 at 08:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

How about Maran Harav Arnold Rothstein A"H
or Maran Harav Bugsy Siegel A"H

Or Maran Harav Bernard Madoff?

37

 Mar 03, 2010 at 08:06 PM PHd Says:

Since when do Jews honor a murderer?

38

 Mar 03, 2010 at 08:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

Really sick fund-raising gimmick! It's one thing to save a man's life, and another to glamorize his memory. Sadly, some will be taken in by this silly campaign.

As they are by many others of a similar nature. Of late, we've become a nation of sheep. So, who are the trend-setters? Those that decide whether we should produce (and attend) concerts. I'm certain there are more Jewish inmates on death row. Why did Martin Grossman have the privilege to be selected for extra compassion, after having deliberately killed a Park Ranger?!

39

 Mar 03, 2010 at 08:45 PM esther Says:

Reply to #22  
Askupeh Says:

Dave, you lost me completely.

I agree that we shouldn't make a martyr out of him nor should we go overboard in making him what he was not, but that doesn't mean that we should deprive him of what he was. For all practical purposes he was a Baal Teshuvah who regretted his crime and did what he could to be good. Can't you “Fargin” him the saying of Kaddish and learning for his Neshama? Nobody had asked you to pay for it, which usually costs a few thousand dollars; but if the Kolel wants to do it out of the goodness of their heart, then who are you to call it disgusting? I hope you take back your disgusting comment.

BTW, who is going to say Kaddish for you? Will your children say Kaddish for you? Will you pay the Kollel the 2-5 thousand dollars so that someone should say Kaddish for your Neshomah?

If you don't believe in G-d then that's another thing, but to come on a Frum site and tell us that saying Kaddish and learning for his Neshama is disgusting, is unforgivable.

can't you see what a tremendous slap in the face this is for the family of the murder victim? how would any of us feel if a goy murdered someone in our family cv and then a church named a charity fund in that murder's honor? really it's disgusting! BH he did tshuva but that officer is still dead and her family is still suffering!

40

 Mar 03, 2010 at 08:47 PM Joe Says:

Despicable and sick. To honor a rotzayach like this is horrible.

"the zechut to reach the madreiga of kedusha that this zaddik had when he was niftar."

Madreiga? Kedusha? Tzaddik? - So now I get it, to be a heiliger tzaddik I just need to murder someone and fell sorry for it. Forget that other path of mitzvos.....

SICK!!!

41

 Mar 03, 2010 at 08:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Stop romanticizing this man's story. The baal teshuvah bit was purposely played up by his defense attorney and the Chabad rabbi as a last ditch effort to save him. Grossman sure did not look like a baal teshuvah and his last meal of treife chicken proved that. The Chabad rabbi went out of his way to help him put on tefillin and had him say "Shema" before his execution, which is noble. However, let's not get carried away here. Most murderers on death row find religion in prison, whether through a rabbi, a priest or an imam.

42

 Mar 03, 2010 at 08:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Or Maran Harav Bernard Madoff?

Now that I think won't happen, because I'm sure Kollel Shomre Halachos is in such dire need of funds today in part because of Bernard Madoff.

43

 Mar 03, 2010 at 08:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Askupeh Says:

You made a general statement "disgusting"; and didn't bother to differentiate between Kaddish and conferring an honor. These two things are Kerchoik Mizrach and Maariv. It's enough that you showed zero emotion and couldn't be moved before his execution. For that we can debate until tomorrow. But to call it disgusting when someone wants to say Kaddish for his Yiddesha Neshoma, that is unpardonable.

BTW, I was the one debating you in many comments before the execution, but stayed anonymous so as not to compromise anyone in sending letters because it is I that suggested it.

You told me then that you’re Jewish which I couldn’t believe how it is possible; now I’ll ask you: Do you believe in G-d?

If your answer is in the negative then there is no purpose in debating you on this, and if you’re a decent man, you should have recused yourself on commenting on this.

Are you deliberately dense? I'm not Dave nor do I know him but I believe he is pointing out the insanity in sending out a public press release in honor of Grossman, along with the public displays of grief for a murderer.You want to say kaddish and learn mishnayos,go ahead but kindly keep this away from the public eye. Peggy Parks deserves this much at least. No offense but you seem to have an unwarranted opinion of your high intelligence along with extreme self righteousness and its a nauseating combination.

44

 Mar 03, 2010 at 09:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Actually Says:

He did leave a child. She was given up for adoption. I pray she'll never find out that her father was a killer.

Where did you get this information from?

45

 Mar 03, 2010 at 09:09 PM Anonymous Says:

I agree that this I'd not the way to go about it but if anyone wants to learn privately in his memory his neshomo could definitely use all the help it can get. Even if misa is mechaper, remember, according to his Rabbi Rabbi Katz, he never become frum even at the end (his last meal was a treif chicken sandwich from the jail canteen) so he never had the misa im tshuvah as far as mitzvos go.

47

 Mar 03, 2010 at 09:23 PM fav anony Says:

It seems to be that the same people who are honoring Martin Grossman would never have him at their shabbos table, he would never be invited to share a chelek in their olam haze.

No one ever think to make a charitable organization in the honor and memory of a not frum yid who nevertheless gave charity and was a good person. no not for them, they werent extreme enough. But for Martin Grossman a convicted murderer...him we should honor.

48

 Mar 03, 2010 at 09:35 PM Anonymous Says:

well this is one tzedakah that I will refrain from donating to

49

 Mar 03, 2010 at 09:35 PM response to #44 Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

Where did you get this information from?

One of the pieces I read about his life story. He impregnated a girlfriend and they gave the baby up for adoption.

50

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:00 PM What? Says:

Giving Tzedokoh is a very nice thing, but I'm not sure I would be comfortable giving to an organization that is in memory of a murderer.

51

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
Joe Says:

Despicable and sick. To honor a rotzayach like this is horrible.

"the zechut to reach the madreiga of kedusha that this zaddik had when he was niftar."

Madreiga? Kedusha? Tzaddik? - So now I get it, to be a heiliger tzaddik I just need to murder someone and fell sorry for it. Forget that other path of mitzvos.....

SICK!!!

I'm the one who posted the message you're responding to. Apparently, even though I was about as far over the top as can be, many people still did not get my point, which is the same as yours.

52

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:13 PM Anonymous Says:

So where's the Kollel and charity fund raiser for David Pearl? Can anyone deny he deserved if far more then Grossman?

53

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:13 PM no way Says:

I would never contribute to something as despicable as this- this is something Jewish?It reminds me more of a gang honoring a thug!

54

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:14 PM broken tape recorder Says:

this is gross, man

55

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Anonymous Says:

So where's the Kollel and charity fund raiser for David Pearl? Can anyone deny he deserved if far more then Grossman?

Daniel Pearl; David Pearl is still alive.

But I suspect that the clear fact that Daniel Pearl was not frum (his wife, though she had a Jewish father, was not halachically Jewish and as far as I can tell, never converted; her Wikipedia page says she currently practices Buddhism) means that won't be happening.

56

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:30 PM Anonymous Says:

I think the kollel is just trying to capitalize on the Grossman story which seems to have mesmerized the charedi world. They are simply using him as a pitchman, albeit a dead one. They realize that this man has been canonized and made out to be a martyr/legend and they are milking his fame before people forget about him.

57

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:24 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

Stop romanticizing this man's story. The baal teshuvah bit was purposely played up by his defense attorney and the Chabad rabbi as a last ditch effort to save him. Grossman sure did not look like a baal teshuvah and his last meal of treife chicken proved that. The Chabad rabbi went out of his way to help him put on tefillin and had him say "Shema" before his execution, which is noble. However, let's not get carried away here. Most murderers on death row find religion in prison, whether through a rabbi, a priest or an imam.

How do you know the chicken was treif?

58

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:34 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #26  
Dave Says:

You want to say Kaddish for him, say Kaddish for him.

You want to learn for him, learn for him.

Sending a press release honoring a murderer, and declaring that you are creating a charity in his honor, that is disgusting.

As much you try to claim that the Parks family might be hurt, I am not sure why, because we belief in redemption and with good deeds on this world in the name of the deceased is good for the soul? You know something if the Parks are Christens then they believe in salvation too, but if they are atheist then I feel sorry for them, furthermore, every major religion believes in redemption, so stop attacking people like Askupeh who are just arguing the point that regardless if you side with or against publicly to avert the death penalty but doing good deeds in his soul is always a good thing regardless if he committed a crime 24 years ago as long he regretted with his last breath. We should help his soul or any other soul.

59

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:38 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #39  
esther Says:

can't you see what a tremendous slap in the face this is for the family of the murder victim? how would any of us feel if a goy murdered someone in our family cv and then a church named a charity fund in that murder's honor? really it's disgusting! BH he did tshuva but that officer is still dead and her family is still suffering!

Sorry but you don’t understand the christen way they believe in doing good deeds to help the soul, it is not a slap in their face. You are the one who lacks the basic theology understanding, what a salvation means and how it could be achieved, this is not like you name a building after a known person who did good deeds, this is done for the sole purpose to help a soul achieve salvation and redemption.

60

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:46 PM Anonymous Says:

You know, I dont know about any of you, but one thing I will tell you, tomorrow first thing in the morning I am going to call this "charity" and let them have it! There are so many good, honest,decent, quiet yidden, out there that haven't killed anyone and yet have been killed al kiddush Hashem and they have not been "honored". There is something fishy about this! I hear dollar bills!!!

61

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:48 PM formally Says:

sick sick

They should be ashamed of themselves for doing this. Have frum organizations have no shame. I see they will do anything for a buck.

If you agree with this insanity, do not complain when Muslim honor there killers. Maybe they did redemption a millisecond before the bomb went off.

What to do something nice about the tragic event , collect money to honor Parks and make a Kidduch hashem.



This is a big chillul Hashem I wonder who's idea this was.

I really hope this is a late purim joke

62

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:54 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #35  
Askupeh Says:

You made a general statement "disgusting"; and didn't bother to differentiate between Kaddish and conferring an honor. These two things are Kerchoik Mizrach and Maariv. It's enough that you showed zero emotion and couldn't be moved before his execution. For that we can debate until tomorrow. But to call it disgusting when someone wants to say Kaddish for his Yiddesha Neshoma, that is unpardonable.

BTW, I was the one debating you in many comments before the execution, but stayed anonymous so as not to compromise anyone in sending letters because it is I that suggested it.

You told me then that you’re Jewish which I couldn’t believe how it is possible; now I’ll ask you: Do you believe in G-d?

If your answer is in the negative then there is no purpose in debating you on this, and if you’re a decent man, you should have recused yourself on commenting on this.

Not that I think it's particularly germane to this discussion, but the answer is yes.

Now let me ask you a question.

What if this press release, rather than glorifying a murderer, had simply said, "we're going to say Kaddish for him because he has no one else who will, and learn for him because he can't", and then had added that they were establishing in the name and honor of Peggy Parks, whom he killed. Because if we are all responsible for each other, then we should also do what we can to make up for our brother's misdeeds.

Had they done that, I don't think anyone would have (or should have objected). They could have dealt with religious and moral obligations in one elegant and honorable way. Instead, they are glorifying a killer.

63

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:57 PM formally Says:

Reply to #58  
OMG Says:

As much you try to claim that the Parks family might be hurt, I am not sure why, because we belief in redemption and with good deeds on this world in the name of the deceased is good for the soul? You know something if the Parks are Christens then they believe in salvation too, but if they are atheist then I feel sorry for them, furthermore, every major religion believes in redemption, so stop attacking people like Askupeh who are just arguing the point that regardless if you side with or against publicly to avert the death penalty but doing good deeds in his soul is always a good thing regardless if he committed a crime 24 years ago as long he regretted with his last breath. We should help his soul or any other soul.

email the flyer and lets see how happy they are.

and called him Reb is wrong. Why not just say we are praying for a murderers soul.

I wonder, maybe I will ask some Christens friends that are weekly church goes and ask them what they think.

You might be right, but my guess is you are wrong very wrong about this

64

 Mar 03, 2010 at 10:58 PM Anonymous Says:

How is this at all different from the Arabs having parades and tents set up for people who murder Jews? That is disgusting and so is this. Think of this woman's family! How callous can these people be?

Daniel Pearl was decapitated for being a Jew, yet we hear of no special learning on his behalf. The charedi community is insane.

65

 Mar 03, 2010 at 11:00 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #58  
OMG Says:

As much you try to claim that the Parks family might be hurt, I am not sure why, because we belief in redemption and with good deeds on this world in the name of the deceased is good for the soul? You know something if the Parks are Christens then they believe in salvation too, but if they are atheist then I feel sorry for them, furthermore, every major religion believes in redemption, so stop attacking people like Askupeh who are just arguing the point that regardless if you side with or against publicly to avert the death penalty but doing good deeds in his soul is always a good thing regardless if he committed a crime 24 years ago as long he regretted with his last breath. We should help his soul or any other soul.

So, this is why Jewish groups have stunned the world by not objecting to the Catholic Church honoring Pope Pius XII? After all, whatever else he may have done wrong, he was devout, and we believe in redemption, and what could be the harm in good deeds done in his name?

Oh, wait.

66

 Mar 03, 2010 at 11:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Have we lost our minds? This animal was a murderer. The fact that he found religion while in prison has nothing to do with the heinous nature of the crime. What a horrible chilul hashem this is causing by naming a gmach in a killers name. Imagine what his family will feel when they see this. Our community is truly sick if we celebrate the defense of this murderer. He killed a police officer! That is all that needs to be said. Jews do not celebrate the memory of murderers. "Dina malchusa dina"

67

 Mar 03, 2010 at 11:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #65  
Dave Says:

So, this is why Jewish groups have stunned the world by not objecting to the Catholic Church honoring Pope Pius XII? After all, whatever else he may have done wrong, he was devout, and we believe in redemption, and what could be the harm in good deeds done in his name?

Oh, wait.

Why are you arguing with someone of questionable intelligence? Seriously,ignore the trolls.

68

 Mar 03, 2010 at 11:35 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #65  
Dave Says:

So, this is why Jewish groups have stunned the world by not objecting to the Catholic Church honoring Pope Pius XII? After all, whatever else he may have done wrong, he was devout, and we believe in redemption, and what could be the harm in good deeds done in his name?

Oh, wait.

You are losing me Pope Pius XII is being pushed for sainthood, they are first working on the beautification part which comes first, but Grossman is not being beautified so get you facts straight

69

 Mar 03, 2010 at 11:40 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #63  
formally Says:

email the flyer and lets see how happy they are.

and called him Reb is wrong. Why not just say we are praying for a murderers soul.

I wonder, maybe I will ask some Christens friends that are weekly church goes and ask them what they think.

You might be right, but my guess is you are wrong very wrong about this

I don’t need any friends to guide me, to understand the different catholic or christens views; I am well versed in their traditions. I am speaking from theological view not common ordinary weekly worshippers views.

70

 Mar 03, 2010 at 11:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Disgraceful, but not surprising Says:

Considering that this 'charity' is headquartered in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, this nonsense is not surprising. But it is a disgrace nevertheless.

They should be boycotted.

P.S. Why don't they start a fund in memmory of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg?

bli neder i will stop giving to this mosad . i used to give but after this article there is no way im going to support a tzdakah named after a criminal and murderer

71

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:11 AM Yeshivah Man Says:

Press release now! But Jews treating him as a real brother yes! If it's a brother whether he is a murderer or not you will go for him and try the best for him

72

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
OMG Says:

Sorry but you don’t understand the christen way they believe in doing good deeds to help the soul, it is not a slap in their face. You are the one who lacks the basic theology understanding, what a salvation means and how it could be achieved, this is not like you name a building after a known person who did good deeds, this is done for the sole purpose to help a soul achieve salvation and redemption.

You have no idea what you're talking about and you can't even spell the word Christian correctly. Salvation according to Protestant Christianity is not accomplished through deeds but by accepting a certain person as your savior. There is no concept of doing good deeds for someone after their death in order to help their salvation along. This was the entire crux of the Reformation.

Catholicism has a concept of saying masses for the repose of the deceased's soul, but doing so isn't going to get them out of hell. It is certainly not done for murderers.

I'm a ger, I did this song and dance for a long time. Next time do your research.

73

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:31 AM Dave Says:

Reply to #68  
OMG Says:

You are losing me Pope Pius XII is being pushed for sainthood, they are first working on the beautification part which comes first, but Grossman is not being beautified so get you facts straight

Yes, and Jewish organizations have protested this quite strenuously. Now do you understand?

74

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:42 AM searchung for your wisdom Says:

what a shame that the gedolei Torah, who are most saintly,venerated and learned are not here to post their opinions.my...how far some of you are,,how i wish that the Skulener rebbe shlit"a would post an opinion to enlighten us.

Well, where should one begin? To explain why we went out to save him?or why we are memorializing him even if we should have saved him?

well, to be very brief,Aleph Institute has made it clear that there was a dire Mitzvah of Lo Saamod al dam rei'acho -"Thou shalt not stand idle on thy brother's blood".
1)basically in The Laws of the Torah, he was not liable for th death penalty(without going into detail)

2)according to the laws of the state of Florida he was not liable for the death penalty(again, without going into detail)

3)even after all religious concerns and brotherly love, we still acknowledged that a crime was comitted and punishment is warranted, but not this type which was disproportionate to the punishments usually administered for comparable crimes as this one

4)which Torah leader has stated NOT to advocate for him!? rav yitzchok tovia weiss,av beis din of yerushalayim and the skulener rebbe are good enough for me!

75

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:45 AM Anonymous Says:

What a shame to go this low as a gimmic to get peoples money if they really mean good they should just say kaddish and shut up all this is,is another lowlife gimmic to raise funds for this charity who would never give a penny to a jew that's not from their own...(Those that are familiar know what I am talking about...) Don't try to make money off this poor guys sole let him rest in peace

76

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:49 AM searching for your wisdom Says:

to continuefrom where i left off:
and so are the Lakewood Roshei Yeshivos!rav chaim Epstein never signs any letter, but here, he went out of his way and I was told that it was very difficult for him to learn because of Martin!

77

 Mar 04, 2010 at 01:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #74  
searchung for your wisdom Says:

what a shame that the gedolei Torah, who are most saintly,venerated and learned are not here to post their opinions.my...how far some of you are,,how i wish that the Skulener rebbe shlit"a would post an opinion to enlighten us.

Well, where should one begin? To explain why we went out to save him?or why we are memorializing him even if we should have saved him?

well, to be very brief,Aleph Institute has made it clear that there was a dire Mitzvah of Lo Saamod al dam rei'acho -"Thou shalt not stand idle on thy brother's blood".
1)basically in The Laws of the Torah, he was not liable for th death penalty(without going into detail)

2)according to the laws of the state of Florida he was not liable for the death penalty(again, without going into detail)

3)even after all religious concerns and brotherly love, we still acknowledged that a crime was comitted and punishment is warranted, but not this type which was disproportionate to the punishments usually administered for comparable crimes as this one

4)which Torah leader has stated NOT to advocate for him!? rav yitzchok tovia weiss,av beis din of yerushalayim and the skulener rebbe are good enough for me!

Number 3 is both false and stupid. If the frum community wants to argue that its doing this out of a sense of religious obligation that is one thing, but don't attempt to argue the law. All that does is make this look like histrionics from a bunch of uninformed malcontents.

78

 Mar 04, 2010 at 01:13 AM searching for your wisdom Says:

to answer why we make a memorial out of him?
Because he was a brother.the best would be to learn what it means to be a yid.the sefer chofetz chaim would help alot with that!the tanya even more so.perhaps we don't appreciate and sufficiently internalize what it means to be a yid.And that is that we are all brothers.and on a higher level we are all attached and part of each other as one entity.and on an even higher level, we are all fused together-we are each other.andon a higher level we are all princes and princesses,higher than that?children of G-d.Higher than that embedded in G-d - no exceptions!

The question is as to what extent do we perceive that and internalize it.

I ask aloud; about 25 years ago, he was a Jew who happened to once murder. Why are some here refering to him as a murderer who happened to be Jewish?Even after teshuvah?i presume that I am on an orthodox website and if so: why are we so eager to judge someone and be mekatreg(to spiritually prosecute)on someone who left the world with more ahavas yisroel and less hate(and murder) in his heart than most posters here.Who can guarantee that we will not need more mercy than him when THE DAY would come????

79

 Mar 04, 2010 at 01:23 AM moishe Says:

Reply to #74  
searchung for your wisdom Says:

what a shame that the gedolei Torah, who are most saintly,venerated and learned are not here to post their opinions.my...how far some of you are,,how i wish that the Skulener rebbe shlit"a would post an opinion to enlighten us.

Well, where should one begin? To explain why we went out to save him?or why we are memorializing him even if we should have saved him?

well, to be very brief,Aleph Institute has made it clear that there was a dire Mitzvah of Lo Saamod al dam rei'acho -"Thou shalt not stand idle on thy brother's blood".
1)basically in The Laws of the Torah, he was not liable for th death penalty(without going into detail)

2)according to the laws of the state of Florida he was not liable for the death penalty(again, without going into detail)

3)even after all religious concerns and brotherly love, we still acknowledged that a crime was comitted and punishment is warranted, but not this type which was disproportionate to the punishments usually administered for comparable crimes as this one

4)which Torah leader has stated NOT to advocate for him!? rav yitzchok tovia weiss,av beis din of yerushalayim and the skulener rebbe are good enough for me!

Obviously, you are wrong with regards to deserving the death penalty according to the Florida law.

For the last 25 years they have been trying to say that he did not deserve the death penalty, however, every appeal was denied, even up to the US supreme court. So it seems that according to Florida law he did deserve it

80

 Mar 04, 2010 at 01:32 AM keep searching for wisdon Says:

Reply to #76  
searching for your wisdom Says:

to continuefrom where i left off:
and so are the Lakewood Roshei Yeshivos!rav chaim Epstein never signs any letter, but here, he went out of his way and I was told that it was very difficult for him to learn because of Martin!

You make conclusory statements and then say "without going into details." As they say, the devil is in the details.

81

 Mar 04, 2010 at 02:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
searching for your wisdom Says:

to answer why we make a memorial out of him?
Because he was a brother.the best would be to learn what it means to be a yid.the sefer chofetz chaim would help alot with that!the tanya even more so.perhaps we don't appreciate and sufficiently internalize what it means to be a yid.And that is that we are all brothers.and on a higher level we are all attached and part of each other as one entity.and on an even higher level, we are all fused together-we are each other.andon a higher level we are all princes and princesses,higher than that?children of G-d.Higher than that embedded in G-d - no exceptions!

The question is as to what extent do we perceive that and internalize it.

I ask aloud; about 25 years ago, he was a Jew who happened to once murder. Why are some here refering to him as a murderer who happened to be Jewish?Even after teshuvah?i presume that I am on an orthodox website and if so: why are we so eager to judge someone and be mekatreg(to spiritually prosecute)on someone who left the world with more ahavas yisroel and less hate(and murder) in his heart than most posters here.Who can guarantee that we will not need more mercy than him when THE DAY would come????

If my brother murders someone, I'm not going to make a public memorial for him. We won't need more mercy because we aren't planning on murdering any public servants.

Death row inmates 'finding' religion isn't novel. I'm surprised how many people believed this guy became some sort of tzadik in prison.

82

 Mar 04, 2010 at 02:09 AM Anonymous Says:

i think it is a little sick. this guy was a murderer and never regretted it. I am sure all of you would love a charitable fund set up for your kids killers as well??

83

 Mar 04, 2010 at 02:10 AM searching for your wisdom Says:

moshe and 80;
nothing is obvious until you see the case or refute my arguments:
1)Charles brewer and thayne taylor lying at the directives of prosecutors to save their skin

2)30 out of 33 witnesses withheld

3)expert testimony withheld

4)not premeditated murder

if you have proof against all or some of the above - then great(maybe not in this case)

84

 Mar 04, 2010 at 02:46 AM searching for yuor wisdom with a lantern Says:

this story might illustrate why substantial attention was given to grossman:

a rebbe was trying to raise money for pidyon shvuyim.one person retorted 'without ploni our town won't be a town anymore?'

that night he died a horrible death through some freak accident

the family came afterwards to ask for forgiveness.the rebbe replied,"oh no, I was not upset personally, just when he told me that comment a thought kept on cropping up which no matter what, I could not repress:"and without this guy too, our town is not a town?"(and since a thought of a tzaddik is very powerful, things happen because of it for better or for worse)

in any case,,the moral of the story is that at the mere thought that ANY jewISH life is not important,one must immediately banish that mere notion.and here a bunch of people went out (as danger was clearly imminent)and declared that we will do what we can to save a life and DECLARE to the world in solidarity, and moreso for our fellow Jews and mainy to ourselves and establish its realization and that it is not something we just say,but something we actually believe

85

 Mar 04, 2010 at 03:36 AM Yechezkel,Flatbush Says:

My.my what a bunch of "mah yofisnikehs" we have here all dancing in front of the poritz!
People, the man sat for twenty five years and was then executed.He showed remorse for his despicable act and paid the ultimate price.
Now, can we at least have a kaddish and mishnayos and something to give him a zechus?
If I'm not mistaken there is a medrash about a man who impregnated a woman on yom kippur and was put to death and later this son born from this union gave the father merit to get out of gehinom.A story eith Rabbi Akiva I think.
Whatever the case, stop trying to prove what bleading hearts you are.

86

 Mar 04, 2010 at 04:39 AM ben Says:

Celebrating a murderer. The Jewish idiocy continues. So sad that there are so little truly G-d fearing Jews out there who value a human life regardless of religion. May the organizers of this suffer defeat and may G-d's name be sanctified by the few Jews who still love and fear Him

87

 Mar 04, 2010 at 07:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Please Read Kollel ad:
Now I understand how every tom, dick and harry is a Rabbi, Rav, Moron,
Hagaon.Poiseck, Kvod Kedushas, Hatsadik, Hachasid etc etc. when the Kollel Shoimrei Hachomos established by the Ksav Sopher can call and print Grossman |"REB"].

I will agree to all the comments written, but freedom of speach and the
Ksav Sopher will not tolerate the "REB".

88

 Mar 04, 2010 at 07:31 AM SHOCKED Says:

Can someone please confirm whether this is true? If so, I will not give one more cent to Kollel Shomrei HaChomos. There are many other organizations that help our brothers and sisters in Yerushalayim that need the help.

89

 Mar 04, 2010 at 07:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Now that I think won't happen, because I'm sure Kollel Shomre Halachos is in such dire need of funds today in part because of Bernard Madoff.

Don't blame Mahdoff. Everybody knows you can't buy a dollar bill for 90c. There are plenty of safe banks and investments, backed and guaranteed by the government, where of course the returns are much lower. It is one thing for private individuals to take risks with their own money in the hope of greater returns. A tzedoko manager may not do that. It is holy money and those managers who risked holy money, NOT their own, are assidim litein ess hadin. The money belonged either to the donors or the poor recipients who depend on it for life.

90

 Mar 04, 2010 at 08:30 AM jimmy37 Says:

Reb? REB? They give a murderer an honorary name like Reb? Are these people as clueless as Neturei Karta? The more I learn about charedi, the more I believe they've become a cult a mindless cult. I don't want to have anything to do with them.

91

 Mar 04, 2010 at 08:40 AM i agree Says:

Reply to #24  
Askupeh Says:

Saying Kaddish and learning for a Neshama is not exalting anyone. Please get it straight. Children say Kaddish and learn for the Neshomah of their father no different if he was the biggest Tzaddik or the biggest Rosha. Please familiarize yourself with what Kaddish is before you talk.

u r correct. people take saying kaddish very litely. if one were to learn the halachos of kaddish they would realize that our shuls havent a clue.

92

 Mar 04, 2010 at 08:41 AM formally Says:

Reply to #74  
searchung for your wisdom Says:

what a shame that the gedolei Torah, who are most saintly,venerated and learned are not here to post their opinions.my...how far some of you are,,how i wish that the Skulener rebbe shlit"a would post an opinion to enlighten us.

Well, where should one begin? To explain why we went out to save him?or why we are memorializing him even if we should have saved him?

well, to be very brief,Aleph Institute has made it clear that there was a dire Mitzvah of Lo Saamod al dam rei'acho -"Thou shalt not stand idle on thy brother's blood".
1)basically in The Laws of the Torah, he was not liable for th death penalty(without going into detail)

2)according to the laws of the state of Florida he was not liable for the death penalty(again, without going into detail)

3)even after all religious concerns and brotherly love, we still acknowledged that a crime was comitted and punishment is warranted, but not this type which was disproportionate to the punishments usually administered for comparable crimes as this one

4)which Torah leader has stated NOT to advocate for him!? rav yitzchok tovia weiss,av beis din of yerushalayim and the skulener rebbe are good enough for me!

what a shame. that these same rabonum do not but as much effort to help victims of molestation.

We are truly upside down

93

 Mar 04, 2010 at 08:42 AM hellooooo Says:

Reply to #83  
searching for your wisdom Says:

moshe and 80;
nothing is obvious until you see the case or refute my arguments:
1)Charles brewer and thayne taylor lying at the directives of prosecutors to save their skin

2)30 out of 33 witnesses withheld

3)expert testimony withheld

4)not premeditated murder

if you have proof against all or some of the above - then great(maybe not in this case)

forget premedidated. the man BASHED IN HER SKULL WITH A FLASHLIGHT and then SHOT HER IN THE HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

94

 Mar 04, 2010 at 08:53 AM Anonymous Says:

i guess the $1 I gave this morning that was my last donation to them.

just plain old disgusting!!!!

95

 Mar 04, 2010 at 08:53 AM formally Says:

Reply to #78  
searching for your wisdom Says:

to answer why we make a memorial out of him?
Because he was a brother.the best would be to learn what it means to be a yid.the sefer chofetz chaim would help alot with that!the tanya even more so.perhaps we don't appreciate and sufficiently internalize what it means to be a yid.And that is that we are all brothers.and on a higher level we are all attached and part of each other as one entity.and on an even higher level, we are all fused together-we are each other.andon a higher level we are all princes and princesses,higher than that?children of G-d.Higher than that embedded in G-d - no exceptions!

The question is as to what extent do we perceive that and internalize it.

I ask aloud; about 25 years ago, he was a Jew who happened to once murder. Why are some here refering to him as a murderer who happened to be Jewish?Even after teshuvah?i presume that I am on an orthodox website and if so: why are we so eager to judge someone and be mekatreg(to spiritually prosecute)on someone who left the world with more ahavas yisroel and less hate(and murder) in his heart than most posters here.Who can guarantee that we will not need more mercy than him when THE DAY would come????

good point


I think on the Brooklyn bridge where we have sign for the Habelstam (spelled wrong) we should have signs for the killer )sorry (I mean righteous person)

I hear he repented

96

 Mar 04, 2010 at 09:26 AM Anonymous Says:

1. Yes, perhaps he repented, but instead of causing this massive Chillul Hashe, - why doesnt these Rabonom learn and give tzedakah in private? Why are they out to martyr him?

2. Imagine how the family of the officer feels after reading, seeing and hearing Jews making a massive chillul hashem to save him.

3. I can find many many other people who would benefit from a Gemach fund / same type of publicity that was provided. A few:

1. In honor of Gilad Shalit (may he be released today).
2. In memory of all Israeli soldiers who have been killed
3. In memory of all American soldiers killed (jewish and not jewish).

4. Further, if these so called Rabonim are bored and need something to take up. Here are my suggestions:

1. Stop shielding molesters/abusers in the community.
2. Tuition Crisis
3. Work on uniting the Jewish people with love, instead of hate

Sincerely,

A very shamed Jew

97

 Mar 04, 2010 at 09:55 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #83  
searching for your wisdom Says:

moshe and 80;
nothing is obvious until you see the case or refute my arguments:
1)Charles brewer and thayne taylor lying at the directives of prosecutors to save their skin

2)30 out of 33 witnesses withheld

3)expert testimony withheld

4)not premeditated murder

if you have proof against all or some of the above - then great(maybe not in this case)

1) If this was true, then either the court of appeals, Florida Supreme Court, or Supreme Court of the United States would have vacated the verdict and ordered a new trial. That never happened after almost 30 years of appeals.

2) Judges have the authority according to the rules of evidence to limit the number of witnesses when they're repeating the same story over and over again. Saying 30/33 withheld does not mean there was any judicial or prosecutorial wrongdoing. Again, if there was why was it not caught by the Ct. of Appeals, Supreme Ct. of FL, or Supreme Ct. of the U.S.?

3) Expert testimony can be and is always disqualified when the expert is not qualified. Nothing wrong with that.

4) As has been explained before numerous times, you can receive the death penalty under Fl. law for murdering an officer in the line of duty whether it was premeditated or not. This law is not unconstitutional.


Like I said before, if you want to argue that kaddish should be said because of a religious obligation that's one thing. However, attempting to argue that this guy was a tzadik and that all the courts got the law wrong is an argument you will surely loose.

98

 Mar 04, 2010 at 09:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #96  
Anonymous Says:

1. Yes, perhaps he repented, but instead of causing this massive Chillul Hashe, - why doesnt these Rabonom learn and give tzedakah in private? Why are they out to martyr him?

2. Imagine how the family of the officer feels after reading, seeing and hearing Jews making a massive chillul hashem to save him.

3. I can find many many other people who would benefit from a Gemach fund / same type of publicity that was provided. A few:

1. In honor of Gilad Shalit (may he be released today).
2. In memory of all Israeli soldiers who have been killed
3. In memory of all American soldiers killed (jewish and not jewish).

4. Further, if these so called Rabonim are bored and need something to take up. Here are my suggestions:

1. Stop shielding molesters/abusers in the community.
2. Tuition Crisis
3. Work on uniting the Jewish people with love, instead of hate

Sincerely,

A very shamed Jew

Amen v'amen. Where are the gmachim in honor of Gilad Shalit or Daniel Pearl or the Jews killed in action in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Honoring this guy makes us no better than Hamas when it parades around for its murderers.

99

 Mar 04, 2010 at 10:17 AM OMG Says:

Reply to #72  
Anonymous Says:

You have no idea what you're talking about and you can't even spell the word Christian correctly. Salvation according to Protestant Christianity is not accomplished through deeds but by accepting a certain person as your savior. There is no concept of doing good deeds for someone after their death in order to help their salvation along. This was the entire crux of the Reformation.

Catholicism has a concept of saying masses for the repose of the deceased's soul, but doing so isn't going to get them out of hell. It is certainly not done for murderers.

I'm a ger, I did this song and dance for a long time. Next time do your research.

Thanks for proofreading my writing; first of all I never said that the Protestants believed in salvation through ether prayer or good deeds, as matter of fact, Protestants took the St. Augustine view that every human is condemned to internal condemnation, and you only could be saved through grace, so according to them Grossman is condemned as much as the Pope or anyone who was not born again, therefore I didn’t even try to make sense of their beliefs.
The New Testament teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself says, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. So if the Parker family is Catholics then they should not have a problem because Grossman final words were the sanctification of God. If they are Protestants then noting would help Grossman shy of being born again. But their feeling is irrelevant to our religious beliefs, that you could get salvation as long you really mean it. And I am sure when a person knows that he will die in the next five minutes and he says “Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad” he really meant it. That is called a death bed confession and not every Jew has the zuchs to say Sh’ma with their last breath.

100

 Mar 04, 2010 at 10:21 AM OMG Says:

Reply to #73  
Dave Says:

Yes, and Jewish organizations have protested this quite strenuously. Now do you understand?

No I don’t Grossman is not being beautified or put up for sainthood, maybe you just don’t understand what sainthood means.

101

 Mar 04, 2010 at 10:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Whether a murder repented is between him and Hashem. It is our job to arrange the meeting.

102

 Mar 04, 2010 at 10:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Quick question for those who say he was a true Ba'al Teshuva.
What if he had been granted clemencey and released from prison? And then moved to Brooklyn? And the word was put out that he was looking for a shidduch?...

Would you say yes for YOUR daughter???
(and how many years of support would you give?)

103

 Mar 04, 2010 at 10:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #99  
OMG Says:

Thanks for proofreading my writing; first of all I never said that the Protestants believed in salvation through ether prayer or good deeds, as matter of fact, Protestants took the St. Augustine view that every human is condemned to internal condemnation, and you only could be saved through grace, so according to them Grossman is condemned as much as the Pope or anyone who was not born again, therefore I didn’t even try to make sense of their beliefs.
The New Testament teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself says, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. So if the Parker family is Catholics then they should not have a problem because Grossman final words were the sanctification of God. If they are Protestants then noting would help Grossman shy of being born again. But their feeling is irrelevant to our religious beliefs, that you could get salvation as long you really mean it. And I am sure when a person knows that he will die in the next five minutes and he says “Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad” he really meant it. That is called a death bed confession and not every Jew has the zuchs to say Sh’ma with their last breath.

Thanks for the theological lesson. What does any of that rambling have to do with the idea that the Parker family should not be insulted by the Jewish community praising their child's killer?

104

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:04 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

i think it is a little sick. this guy was a murderer and never regretted it. I am sure all of you would love a charitable fund set up for your kids killers as well??

Never regretted it? Why do you lie?

105

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Disgusting! He was a murderer! People are sick!

106

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:30 AM JL Says:

Kaddish -- yes. Mishnayos -- valid. A gemach in his name -- absurd and distasteful under the circumstances!

107

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:33 AM Dave Says:

Reply to #100  
OMG Says:

No I don’t Grossman is not being beautified or put up for sainthood, maybe you just don’t understand what sainthood means.

I'll try to explain more clearly then.

The objection is not that Pius XII is being beatified or cannonized -- and I should note that under Catholic theology this is a recognition based on miracles and therefore not something that (at least in theory) they are doing on their own -- it is that he is being honored.

Do you really think that if the Church were to declare a Pope Pius XII Charity, that the Jewish organizations would suddenly say, "oh, well, if he isn't being declared saint, we guess that's ok"?

108

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Truly disgusting. Dont we question the yichus of someone who displays cruelty (hitting the lady police officer 20 to 30 times on the head with a heavy flashlight BEFORE shooting her in the head)? I certainly dont trust the "mekareivs"judgement

109

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:51 AM A. Nuran Says:

At least something good is coming out of that murderous criminal's life.

110

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:51 AM Oh, that's right Says:

Reply to #104  
Anonymous Says:

Never regretted it? Why do you lie?

He regretted it when he was sentenced to death, and when he was about to be put to death. But in 26 years he never contacted the victim's family.

111

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

May his soul live in Gan Eden forever, with Moshe Rabbeinu, and may your children have the zechut to reach the madreiga of kedusha that this zaddik had when he was niftar.

t treif chicken sandwiches as Grossman did half hour before he died

112

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:57 AM OMG Says:

Reply to #103  
Anonymous Says:

Thanks for the theological lesson. What does any of that rambling have to do with the idea that the Parker family should not be insulted by the Jewish community praising their child's killer?

People with religious background understand that while a family sets up a charity in someone name it doesn’t mean that you sanctify the person; you just try to do some good in his name to give his soul some comfort. Only rightwing orthodox Jews might have an objection the charity; everybody does understand what the reason for this was.

113

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:09 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #107  
Dave Says:

I'll try to explain more clearly then.

The objection is not that Pius XII is being beatified or cannonized -- and I should note that under Catholic theology this is a recognition based on miracles and therefore not something that (at least in theory) they are doing on their own -- it is that he is being honored.

Do you really think that if the Church were to declare a Pope Pius XII Charity, that the Jewish organizations would suddenly say, "oh, well, if he isn't being declared saint, we guess that's ok"?

If the church would establish a charity in Pius name that would signify that they believe his soul is in purgatory so what is the problem.

114

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:17 PM Anonymous Says:

We should be mechabed mitzvos in the name of our Rabbonim and Gedolim. If I personally daven for another unfortunate Yid who was nifter, it is my personal desire to mechabed him l'illui nishmaso.

115

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:20 PM Anonymous Says:

I bli neder plan on never again donating money to kollel shomre hachomos. shame on them!

116

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:25 PM Richard Nixon Says:

Strange. I always thought money given to the tzedakah named after Reb Meir Baal Hanais was given lezaicher and bizchus REB MEIR BAAL HANAIS.

117

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:31 PM Askupeh (part 1) Says:

Reply to #99  
OMG Says:

Thanks for proofreading my writing; first of all I never said that the Protestants believed in salvation through ether prayer or good deeds, as matter of fact, Protestants took the St. Augustine view that every human is condemned to internal condemnation, and you only could be saved through grace, so according to them Grossman is condemned as much as the Pope or anyone who was not born again, therefore I didn’t even try to make sense of their beliefs.
The New Testament teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself says, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. So if the Parker family is Catholics then they should not have a problem because Grossman final words were the sanctification of God. If they are Protestants then noting would help Grossman shy of being born again. But their feeling is irrelevant to our religious beliefs, that you could get salvation as long you really mean it. And I am sure when a person knows that he will die in the next five minutes and he says “Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad” he really meant it. That is called a death bed confession and not every Jew has the zuchs to say Sh’ma with their last breath.

Thanks OMG for explaining my thoughts to those who would want to read into my words what I didn’t mean. I am fully in agreement with all your comments here, and would like to add that when I read this flyer (don’t think it was a press release) it also bothered me the word “Reb”; I felt that it was totally unnecessary; and it’s interesting that in the Hebrew they left it out. Could be that the translator into English did it on his own. I also think that the Hespedim on Grossman (I heard on Kol Mevaser in Yiddish) went a little overboard. What should have been stressed is that he did something terrible but he did do Teshuvah and he had the Zchus of coming to Kever Yisroel, something many aren’t Zoicheh. Still everything has to be weighed on its merits. The chicken that was probably Treif needs to weighed in context of “who, what and when”, which I tried to explain at the time. It is not an either/or game where either he was a Baal Teshuvah or he wasn’t.

118

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:32 PM Askupeh (part 2) Says:

Reply to #99  
OMG Says:

Thanks for proofreading my writing; first of all I never said that the Protestants believed in salvation through ether prayer or good deeds, as matter of fact, Protestants took the St. Augustine view that every human is condemned to internal condemnation, and you only could be saved through grace, so according to them Grossman is condemned as much as the Pope or anyone who was not born again, therefore I didn’t even try to make sense of their beliefs.
The New Testament teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself says, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. So if the Parker family is Catholics then they should not have a problem because Grossman final words were the sanctification of God. If they are Protestants then noting would help Grossman shy of being born again. But their feeling is irrelevant to our religious beliefs, that you could get salvation as long you really mean it. And I am sure when a person knows that he will die in the next five minutes and he says “Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad” he really meant it. That is called a death bed confession and not every Jew has the zuchs to say Sh’ma with their last breath.

Even Baalei Teshuvah’s aren’t always perfect or sometimes don’t even know what they are doing wrong, as I believe happened in regard to his last meal. I even wonder if he had any appetite to eat; I know I wouldn’t. So if he did enjoy that piece of chicken that would lead me to think that he was missing a few marbles and wasn’t playing with a full deck.

Nevertheless a Baal Teshuvah who regretted his act he was, and as you pointed out he died with Shma Yisroel on his lips, and I would add that even if many people have gone overboard on this, he did inspire many a Jew with the love of their fellow Jew; and if that alone would be his everlasting memory then he wasn’t born and died in vain.

119

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:33 PM Askupeh (part 3) Says:

Reply to #99  
OMG Says:

Thanks for proofreading my writing; first of all I never said that the Protestants believed in salvation through ether prayer or good deeds, as matter of fact, Protestants took the St. Augustine view that every human is condemned to internal condemnation, and you only could be saved through grace, so according to them Grossman is condemned as much as the Pope or anyone who was not born again, therefore I didn’t even try to make sense of their beliefs.
The New Testament teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself says, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. So if the Parker family is Catholics then they should not have a problem because Grossman final words were the sanctification of God. If they are Protestants then noting would help Grossman shy of being born again. But their feeling is irrelevant to our religious beliefs, that you could get salvation as long you really mean it. And I am sure when a person knows that he will die in the next five minutes and he says “Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad” he really meant it. That is called a death bed confession and not every Jew has the zuchs to say Sh’ma with their last breath.

What bothers me is when people treat a Jewish Niftar the same as they would a living miscreant. Yes, Daniel Pearl deserves a Kaddish, but one, someone who dies Al Kiddush Hashem like our ancestors in Aushwitz don’t need a Kaddish, G-d Kaveyochel himself says Kaddish for them, and second the Kolel isn’t in the business of saying Kaddish for free; someone actually has to pay for it. In this case they probably thought that saying Kaddish for Grossman for free will actually bring in more money, or someone actually paid for his Kaddish; it’s only about 2 thousand dollars.

Lastly the way this Kollel and the other similar Kollelim work is that someone can either pay the amount for the saying of Kaddish and learning Mishnayes Le’ilui Nishmosom, or there is a notch higher where someone sets up a “Keren” (in English “a fund”) where they will say Kaddish and learn Mihsnaiyes in perpetuity. A keren costs much more money and this Kolel probably has a thousand of them. This is what they set up for him, and not that they are renaming the whole Kollel in his name. He is going to be one of a thousand or thousands and not what some suggested here.

120

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:34 PM QUESTION FOR DEFENDERS Says:

DID KOLEL SHOMREI HACHOMOS SET UP A GMACH FOR THE 2 LITTLE INNOCENT PURE NESHAMOS THAT WERE RUN OVER BY CARS/BUSSES IN RECENT WEEKS??? WHAT ABOUT FOR MOTTY BORGER THE CHASSAN OR SHUA FINKELSTEIN THE BOY FROM LAKEWOOD??? SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER ME THIS!!!!!!

121

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:39 PM Askupeh (part 4) Says:

Reply to #99  
OMG Says:

Thanks for proofreading my writing; first of all I never said that the Protestants believed in salvation through ether prayer or good deeds, as matter of fact, Protestants took the St. Augustine view that every human is condemned to internal condemnation, and you only could be saved through grace, so according to them Grossman is condemned as much as the Pope or anyone who was not born again, therefore I didn’t even try to make sense of their beliefs.
The New Testament teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself says, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. So if the Parker family is Catholics then they should not have a problem because Grossman final words were the sanctification of God. If they are Protestants then noting would help Grossman shy of being born again. But their feeling is irrelevant to our religious beliefs, that you could get salvation as long you really mean it. And I am sure when a person knows that he will die in the next five minutes and he says “Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad” he really meant it. That is called a death bed confession and not every Jew has the zuchs to say Sh’ma with their last breath.

We need to stress over and over to those who don’t get it, that Kaddish and learning mishnayess is not the same as honoring someone or turning someone into a martyr. To argue that we shouldn’t blow him out of proportion is a legitimate argument and one which I agree with, and I do think that the Kollel went a little overboard with this in the way the flyer is written; but to argue that we shouldn’t do anything for his Neshomah because of his dastardly deed 26 years ago is missing entirely the point and unacceptable. Those who have gone a little overboard should be forgiven for that too, because after all, this whole episode touched many of us very deeply. I for one cried when the news came that he was executed, and I don’t cry lightly.
For the umpteenth time, doing something for his Neshomah does not equal hurting the Park’s family. To argue so, is not grasping and not having an idea what spirituality is.

122

 Mar 04, 2010 at 12:41 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #112  
OMG Says:

People with religious background understand that while a family sets up a charity in someone name it doesn’t mean that you sanctify the person; you just try to do some good in his name to give his soul some comfort. Only rightwing orthodox Jews might have an objection the charity; everybody does understand what the reason for this was.

No, I think most people know that when you set up a charity in someone's honor, you are doing it to honor them.

123

 Mar 04, 2010 at 01:09 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #121  
Askupeh (part 4) Says:

We need to stress over and over to those who don’t get it, that Kaddish and learning mishnayess is not the same as honoring someone or turning someone into a martyr. To argue that we shouldn’t blow him out of proportion is a legitimate argument and one which I agree with, and I do think that the Kollel went a little overboard with this in the way the flyer is written; but to argue that we shouldn’t do anything for his Neshomah because of his dastardly deed 26 years ago is missing entirely the point and unacceptable. Those who have gone a little overboard should be forgiven for that too, because after all, this whole episode touched many of us very deeply. I for one cried when the news came that he was executed, and I don’t cry lightly.
For the umpteenth time, doing something for his Neshomah does not equal hurting the Park’s family. To argue so, is not grasping and not having an idea what spirituality is.

No one argued against saying Kaddish.

I don't think anyone argued about Learning in his name.

What has been said (and what you don't quite seem to get) is that there is a big difference between doing that and issuing a press release applauding yourself for doing it, and announcing that you have established a charity to honor the murderer.

That is what is reprehensible.

But hey, what do I know. The minhag I grew up with was that we stood and said Kaddish for all those who had no one to say it for them. And we didn't charge anything.

125

 Mar 04, 2010 at 01:28 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #122  
Dave Says:

No, I think most people know that when you set up a charity in someone's honor, you are doing it to honor them.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Setting up a charity (a Keren Kayemes, a perpetual fund) is to say Kaddish and learn Misnnayes on his Yohrtzeit in perpetuity.

Saying Kaddish and learning Mishnayes costs money, because someone who needs to feed his family needs to be hired and paid for doing it. Usually the family of a Niftar or the Niftar himself (before he dies, of course) sets it up for him. Here he left no one, so they felt that they should do it for him. You didn’t agree that we should lift a finger to save him from execution, that’s your prerogative, but to object to setting up a Kaddish and Misnayess for him is really ridiculous. Do you also object that he had a Taharah and came to Kever Yisroel?

126

 Mar 04, 2010 at 01:37 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #123  
Dave Says:

No one argued against saying Kaddish.

I don't think anyone argued about Learning in his name.

What has been said (and what you don't quite seem to get) is that there is a big difference between doing that and issuing a press release applauding yourself for doing it, and announcing that you have established a charity to honor the murderer.

That is what is reprehensible.

But hey, what do I know. The minhag I grew up with was that we stood and said Kaddish for all those who had no one to say it for them. And we didn't charge anything.

Let me first pick up on your last point. Kaddish in order that it accomplish what it was intended to, needs to be said by an upstanding, righteous and pious person. In the last 200 years where many people didn’t leave a “worthy” Kaddish sayer, they actually paid a pious person to “also” say for them Kaddish. My grandfather and grandmother also paid this Kollel that a pious person say for them Kaddish.

So again setting up a Keen Kayemes to say for him Kaddish is not an honor but a gift. You might have a right to object to this gift if you were a supporter of this Kollel, but to call it disgusting is wrong. Will you finally admit your error?

I have told you many times that the Kollel went overboard, but not with setting up the saying of Kaddish and learning for his Neshoma. For that they should be commended.

127

 Mar 04, 2010 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Milhouse Says:

How do you know the chicken was treif?

We know the chicken was treif because it was purchased from the prison canteen.

128

 Mar 04, 2010 at 01:50 PM Yerachmiel Lopin, FrumFollies blogger Says:

Reply to #57  
Milhouse Says:

How do you know the chicken was treif?

The Kollel can try to fundraise in the name of different people. By cynically choosing Martin Grossman they show that they think this shtick will fly in the frum world. I hope they have miscalculated. Otherwise we will have more Grossman funds than there are Menachems in Lubavitch.

129

 Mar 04, 2010 at 02:18 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #126  
Askupeh Says:

Let me first pick up on your last point. Kaddish in order that it accomplish what it was intended to, needs to be said by an upstanding, righteous and pious person. In the last 200 years where many people didn’t leave a “worthy” Kaddish sayer, they actually paid a pious person to “also” say for them Kaddish. My grandfather and grandmother also paid this Kollel that a pious person say for them Kaddish.

So again setting up a Keen Kayemes to say for him Kaddish is not an honor but a gift. You might have a right to object to this gift if you were a supporter of this Kollel, but to call it disgusting is wrong. Will you finally admit your error?

I have told you many times that the Kollel went overboard, but not with setting up the saying of Kaddish and learning for his Neshoma. For that they should be commended.

Let me be sure I get this right.

Someone who chooses to say Kaddish for those who have no one to say it for them may not be righteous and upstanding enough.

But someone who makes a living at it, well, that's another story completely.

130

 Mar 04, 2010 at 03:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

i think it is a little sick. this guy was a murderer and never regretted it. I am sure all of you would love a charitable fund set up for your kids killers as well??

How dare you say he never regretted it.Teach your mouth to speak the truth.

131

 Mar 04, 2010 at 03:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #123  
Dave Says:

No one argued against saying Kaddish.

I don't think anyone argued about Learning in his name.

What has been said (and what you don't quite seem to get) is that there is a big difference between doing that and issuing a press release applauding yourself for doing it, and announcing that you have established a charity to honor the murderer.

That is what is reprehensible.

But hey, what do I know. The minhag I grew up with was that we stood and said Kaddish for all those who had no one to say it for them. And we didn't charge anything.

"I don't think anyone argued about learning in his name".Well rabbi hoffman did on the show,as did many posters here.

132

 Mar 04, 2010 at 03:31 PM Oh, that's right Says:

Reply to #130  
Anonymous Says:

How dare you say he never regretted it.Teach your mouth to speak the truth.

He regretted it when he found it would result in him spending years on Death Row and then dying by lethal injection.

133

 Mar 04, 2010 at 03:32 PM Yep Says:

Reply to #129  
Dave Says:

Let me be sure I get this right.

Someone who chooses to say Kaddish for those who have no one to say it for them may not be righteous and upstanding enough.

But someone who makes a living at it, well, that's another story completely.

The only way to prove you're righteous an upstanding is not to have a job, but to spend all day in kollel living off contributions from those who have jobs, while you say kaddish for killers.

134

 Mar 04, 2010 at 03:37 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #129  
Dave Says:

Let me be sure I get this right.

Someone who chooses to say Kaddish for those who have no one to say it for them may not be righteous and upstanding enough.

But someone who makes a living at it, well, that's another story completely.

Where both are equally righteous then sure the one who does it for free is better then the one who does it for money; but where the Tzadik is sitting and learning and he needs Parnosseh and therefore he is willing to learn for someone for money, he is surely better then a Benenini (mediocre) one saying it for free. And when the one saying it for free is a Baal Aveiroh then you tell me who is better, the Baal Aviroh for free or the Tzadik for money?

In case you didn’t know, learning for money is not prostitution.

135

 Mar 04, 2010 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #130  
Anonymous Says:

How dare you say he never regretted it.Teach your mouth to speak the truth.

But if he should speak the truth then he won't be able to call it sick.

136

 Mar 04, 2010 at 03:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #126  
Askupeh Says:

Let me first pick up on your last point. Kaddish in order that it accomplish what it was intended to, needs to be said by an upstanding, righteous and pious person. In the last 200 years where many people didn’t leave a “worthy” Kaddish sayer, they actually paid a pious person to “also” say for them Kaddish. My grandfather and grandmother also paid this Kollel that a pious person say for them Kaddish.

So again setting up a Keen Kayemes to say for him Kaddish is not an honor but a gift. You might have a right to object to this gift if you were a supporter of this Kollel, but to call it disgusting is wrong. Will you finally admit your error?

I have told you many times that the Kollel went overboard, but not with setting up the saying of Kaddish and learning for his Neshoma. For that they should be commended.

"So again setting up a Keen Kayemes to say for him Kaddish is not an honor but a gift"

Not stam a gift, but a CHESED shel emes, which is the biggest gift someone can give, the biggest chesed someone can do, because the niftar will never recipricate.

137

 Mar 04, 2010 at 03:57 PM Truth Says:

Reply to #130  
Anonymous Says:

How dare you say he never regretted it.Teach your mouth to speak the truth.

Excuse me, until the day of his EXECUTION he never showed ANY remorse to the Parks family. EVERYONE IS SORRY when they are about to die. But was he genuinely sorry? Highly doubtful. He had 25 years to apologize.

138

 Mar 04, 2010 at 04:01 PM QUOTED FROM THE GAINESVILLE SUN (newspaper) Says:

Reply to #130  
Anonymous Says:

How dare you say he never regretted it.Teach your mouth to speak the truth.

"Park said she'll be attending the execution with her son and daughter. She said Grossman has never apologized to her for the killing, but she's not focused on whether he will do so before the execution."

139

 Mar 04, 2010 at 04:02 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #132  
Oh, that's right Says:

He regretted it when he found it would result in him spending years on Death Row and then dying by lethal injection.

So you don't believe in Teshuvah?

The Musar Seforim teach us that Hashem brings pain and misfortune to people so they should do Teshuvah. Are you going to say that such a Teshuvah doesn't count?

Min Hamaakim Korosicho Hashem. From where did Menashe Melech Yisroel do Teshuvah? And yes G-d did accepted his Teshuvah.

140

 Mar 04, 2010 at 04:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #133  
Yep Says:

The only way to prove you're righteous an upstanding is not to have a job, but to spend all day in kollel living off contributions from those who have jobs, while you say kaddish for killers.

Someone who is learning in Kollel is NOT "living on contributions", he is your employee. You are paying hin to do what you should really be doing yourself. And you are paying him lousily. You would never do what he does (or anything) for that wage.

141

 Mar 04, 2010 at 04:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #115  
Anonymous Says:

I bli neder plan on never again donating money to kollel shomre hachomos. shame on them!

I know nothing about Martin Grossman so cannot comment but this I do know. When you give Tzidkas Reb Mei Baal Haness money you are doing yourself a favor. Not them.

142

 Mar 04, 2010 at 04:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #85  
Yechezkel,Flatbush Says:

My.my what a bunch of "mah yofisnikehs" we have here all dancing in front of the poritz!
People, the man sat for twenty five years and was then executed.He showed remorse for his despicable act and paid the ultimate price.
Now, can we at least have a kaddish and mishnayos and something to give him a zechus?
If I'm not mistaken there is a medrash about a man who impregnated a woman on yom kippur and was put to death and later this son born from this union gave the father merit to get out of gehinom.A story eith Rabbi Akiva I think.
Whatever the case, stop trying to prove what bleading hearts you are.

Neturei Karta are not clueless, are not a cult and have never harmed anyone. They are just erliche yidden who live by their principles and, unlike most other chareidi institutions, do not bend the rules when it's convenient. They just get a bad press and they themselves have no access to the media to give their side of the story.
Something like the jews in Germany 1933-1945.
The modern jewish press is to NK what Der Sturmer was to jews.

143

 Mar 04, 2010 at 05:26 PM yossie Says:

kollel shomre is not the first one to try to profit from martin grossman
nechomas yisroel has been running ads about learning mishnayos for $1 a mishna and $5 a blett
this is nechomas yisroel that claims to have taken out 1000 children from public school and placed them in yeshivios (ask them to name 50 not 1000!) this is the organization that is run by the nutjob who started the lipa fiasco
as well as the person who claims that if you use the boro park eruv you are a mechallel shabbos
sick!!!

its all about sucking money from the "oilem Goilem"

but people are waking up to this phony frumkeit and not accepting garbage from these people no matter that their beards are down to their pippicks!

144

 Mar 04, 2010 at 05:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Is this a sick joke? Why would they honor a murderer????????

145

 Mar 04, 2010 at 05:43 PM to dave, omg etc Says:

Grossman gave tzedaka to rav meir baal hanes for the past 20yrs. I think its fitting that they did something in his name. As far as remorse, from a close friend of the niftars family I can say that he wanted to appologize to the parks family directly and wanted to contact them but his lawyers didn't let. Its not like you have a phone on death row. Also, he mentioned to rabbi katz for many years how sorry he was for what he did. And to all the kosher mumchim, why don't you try keeping kosher in FL state prisons. There is no kosher food at least he chose to stick to fish and chicken when available and not eat meat. Everyone of the judgemental team is extremely quick to judge. I think its "ekeldick" to the behavior by all the rabbi hoffman fans without knowing the true facts

146

 Mar 04, 2010 at 05:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #102  
Anonymous Says:

Quick question for those who say he was a true Ba'al Teshuva.
What if he had been granted clemencey and released from prison? And then moved to Brooklyn? And the word was put out that he was looking for a shidduch?...

Would you say yes for YOUR daughter???
(and how many years of support would you give?)

A completly out and out comment.No one was asking for him to be released from prison.And tshuvah is accepted in the jewish community,according to the torah,like Reish lakash.

147

 Mar 04, 2010 at 05:46 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #142  
Anonymous Says:

Neturei Karta are not clueless, are not a cult and have never harmed anyone. They are just erliche yidden who live by their principles and, unlike most other chareidi institutions, do not bend the rules when it's convenient. They just get a bad press and they themselves have no access to the media to give their side of the story.
Something like the jews in Germany 1933-1945.
The modern jewish press is to NK what Der Sturmer was to jews.

Who was talking about the Neturei Karta?

But if you do mention it I'll tell you. The Neturei Karta’s views have no place among the legitimate Hashkofes in Klal Yisroel. Every Neturei Kartanik I know is his own Rov and Rebbe; they have no one to guide them and their actions are despicable. The great Satmar Rebbe ZT"L who was a real Kanohi did not agree with them, and dealt with them harshly; so how do you want the Jewish press to treat them?

148

 Mar 04, 2010 at 05:49 PM yossie Says:

Reply to #140  
Anonymous Says:

Someone who is learning in Kollel is NOT "living on contributions", he is your employee. You are paying hin to do what you should really be doing yourself. And you are paying him lousily. You would never do what he does (or anything) for that wage.

hes not my employee i did not ask him to learn all day if he wishes to do it he should do it without bothering anyonelse
the rest of us can go on with our lives as it says "veosafta deganecha"

149

 Mar 04, 2010 at 05:51 PM yossie Says:

Reply to #142  
Anonymous Says:

Neturei Karta are not clueless, are not a cult and have never harmed anyone. They are just erliche yidden who live by their principles and, unlike most other chareidi institutions, do not bend the rules when it's convenient. They just get a bad press and they themselves have no access to the media to give their side of the story.
Something like the jews in Germany 1933-1945.
The modern jewish press is to NK what Der Sturmer was to jews.

"they have no access to the media"
are you out of your mind they have a website where the venom is printed in may languages including arabic

the only things these guys dont have are a real job and a jewish heart

150

 Mar 04, 2010 at 05:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #138  
QUOTED FROM THE GAINESVILLE SUN (newspaper) Says:

"Park said she'll be attending the execution with her son and daughter. She said Grossman has never apologized to her for the killing, but she's not focused on whether he will do so before the execution."

That he didn't apologize to the Parks family doesn't mean that he didn't have any remorse. Remember he had an IQ of 77 and you can’t expect him to have acted as you would have. He either didn’t think of it, or had no clue how to do it. You’re not talking about an educated person; so absent an apology to the Parks family does not equal the lack of remorse. That's the truth.

151

 Mar 04, 2010 at 06:14 PM yossie Says:

Reply to #145  
to dave, omg etc Says:

Grossman gave tzedaka to rav meir baal hanes for the past 20yrs. I think its fitting that they did something in his name. As far as remorse, from a close friend of the niftars family I can say that he wanted to appologize to the parks family directly and wanted to contact them but his lawyers didn't let. Its not like you have a phone on death row. Also, he mentioned to rabbi katz for many years how sorry he was for what he did. And to all the kosher mumchim, why don't you try keeping kosher in FL state prisons. There is no kosher food at least he chose to stick to fish and chicken when available and not eat meat. Everyone of the judgemental team is extremely quick to judge. I think its "ekeldick" to the behavior by all the rabbi hoffman fans without knowing the true facts

no phone?
how about the good old us postal service
why wouldnt his laywers let him apologize
dot belive the garbage that you are fed stop being a troll and use your g-d given brains

152

 Mar 04, 2010 at 06:19 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #144  
Anonymous Says:

Is this a sick joke? Why would they honor a murderer????????

Saying Kaddish, learning Mishnayes and setting up a Keren Kayemes for him is not honoring, it is Chesed Shel Emes. Honoring would mean if we named a street or our sons after him.

153

 Mar 04, 2010 at 06:36 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #143  
yossie Says:

kollel shomre is not the first one to try to profit from martin grossman
nechomas yisroel has been running ads about learning mishnayos for $1 a mishna and $5 a blett
this is nechomas yisroel that claims to have taken out 1000 children from public school and placed them in yeshivios (ask them to name 50 not 1000!) this is the organization that is run by the nutjob who started the lipa fiasco
as well as the person who claims that if you use the boro park eruv you are a mechallel shabbos
sick!!!

its all about sucking money from the "oilem Goilem"

but people are waking up to this phony frumkeit and not accepting garbage from these people no matter that their beards are down to their pippicks!

Sorry, but Nechomas Yisroel is a great organization which has done a lot for Klal Yisroel and are not there to suck money from the "oilem Goilem".

I support them and I ALSO support the Boro Park Eruv. One has nothing to do with the other. He can be wrong on Lipa, wrong on the Eruv and still be right when it comes to saving Jewish children.

154

 Mar 04, 2010 at 06:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #112  
OMG Says:

People with religious background understand that while a family sets up a charity in someone name it doesn’t mean that you sanctify the person; you just try to do some good in his name to give his soul some comfort. Only rightwing orthodox Jews might have an objection the charity; everybody does understand what the reason for this was.

Right so when Hamas gives out candies and money in honor of suicide bombers, they're just doing it to help the soul of the diseased. Got it. Great.

155

 Mar 04, 2010 at 06:46 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #151  
yossie Says:

no phone?
how about the good old us postal service
why wouldnt his laywers let him apologize
dot belive the garbage that you are fed stop being a troll and use your g-d given brains

Who says that someone on death row can send letters? Do you know what a death row cell looks like? Not much bigger then your bathtub.

There can be many reasons why his lawyers wouldn't let him write a letter, and among them that if they succeeded in getting a new trial for him, such a letter would be detrimental for him. Remember a lawyer’s job is to protect his client.

If you still don’t like #145’s reasoning or rather his information, then look what I said in #150.

This isn't Wikipedia where the trolls live.

156

 Mar 04, 2010 at 06:49 PM yossie Says:

Reply to #153  
Askupeh Says:

Sorry, but Nechomas Yisroel is a great organization which has done a lot for Klal Yisroel and are not there to suck money from the "oilem Goilem".

I support them and I ALSO support the Boro Park Eruv. One has nothing to do with the other. He can be wrong on Lipa, wrong on the Eruv and still be right when it comes to saving Jewish children.

ask them to open their books and show you how many children they took out of public school and how many are they paying the tuition for in yeshivaos

157

 Mar 04, 2010 at 06:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #150  
Anonymous Says:

That he didn't apologize to the Parks family doesn't mean that he didn't have any remorse. Remember he had an IQ of 77 and you can’t expect him to have acted as you would have. He either didn’t think of it, or had no clue how to do it. You’re not talking about an educated person; so absent an apology to the Parks family does not equal the lack of remorse. That's the truth.

Oh yes he was too mentally incapacitated to apologize but was good to go when it came to attempting to cover up his crimes. Such amazing logic.

158

 Mar 04, 2010 at 07:41 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #154  
Anonymous Says:

Right so when Hamas gives out candies and money in honor of suicide bombers, they're just doing it to help the soul of the diseased. Got it. Great.

You just convinced me, hence forward, I will be checking Hamas what my position should be.

159

 Mar 04, 2010 at 07:53 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #158  
OMG Says:

You just convinced me, hence forward, I will be checking Hamas what my position should be.

Why not. You already appear to agree with them on the proper kavod for murderers.

160

 Mar 04, 2010 at 09:28 PM Right! Says:

Reply to #150  
Anonymous Says:

That he didn't apologize to the Parks family doesn't mean that he didn't have any remorse. Remember he had an IQ of 77 and you can’t expect him to have acted as you would have. He either didn’t think of it, or had no clue how to do it. You’re not talking about an educated person; so absent an apology to the Parks family does not equal the lack of remorse. That's the truth.

This is clearing the way a person with an IQ of 77, too weak intellectually to say an apology, writes:
http://www.ccadp.org/martingrossman.htm

161

 Mar 04, 2010 at 11:25 PM formally Says:

to all who agree with this shameful act

would you be screaming and jumping if grossman was a gentle, or maybe scream fry him, since only Jews can have remorse and then they should be forgiven. gentle cannot have remorse and should be put to death

My guess is that most here vote conservative and like candidates who are for the death penalty. However, you should tell the candidate I mean only killers. who are gentiles, Jewish killer should be let go if they show remorse.


So are you or are you not for the death penalty?

162

 Mar 05, 2010 at 05:28 AM Halacha Says:

Many people fail to realize the mechanics here. Martin Grossman did a terrible thing. No one denies that. His physical body was put to death for that crime and his neshama is being punished as well. We do not sit in judgement and say "he really deserved it and he should burn in Hell forever." It is not our place to judge as there is only one true judge. Our job, yes it is an official job, is to try to give other Jews the beneift of the doubt. This is not always an easy task, but we are taught "L'OILOM (always) yihay don odom likav zchus". and "Al tidan es chavercha od she'tigay limkomo." The Gemach was not set up to honor or exalt Martin Grossman. The man did few mitzvas in his life and at least one really big sin. Who needs more zchusim? The tzaddik that was oisek in mitzvas bihiddur rav, fasted from erev Shabbos to erev Shabbos, vilo posuk pomay migirsa, or Martin Grossman? This fund is an effort to help his neshama attain the atonement it so desperately needs. Remember, the way we judge others is the way we are judged upstairs. If we choose to be strict we are judged strictly, if we try to seek merit, merit is sought for us. It has nothing to do with honoring him.

163

 Mar 05, 2010 at 08:15 AM anonymouse Says:

Reply to #161  
formally Says:

to all who agree with this shameful act

would you be screaming and jumping if grossman was a gentle, or maybe scream fry him, since only Jews can have remorse and then they should be forgiven. gentle cannot have remorse and should be put to death

My guess is that most here vote conservative and like candidates who are for the death penalty. However, you should tell the candidate I mean only killers. who are gentiles, Jewish killer should be let go if they show remorse.


So are you or are you not for the death penalty?

First of all being for or against the death penalty is not the issue here. Besides have you ever visited a family memnber in the hospital? Well did you visit everyone in the hospital or just your family member? If you didn't visit everyone then you are just as culpable as those who you are trying to blame for attempting to save grossman because he was jewish. There is nothing wrong with trying to save a family member. There are 6 billion people in the world. You have 15 million minus one. just remmember every soul was at har sinai in some shape or form. possibly connected to an earlier one, stop playing judge and jury. If you realy felt that Kulanu ahuvim and that he is your brother then you would be talking different but obviously you need to look deep inside yourself and all the others that were for frying this guy and do some soul searching. As it says that there still are Airuv Rav amongst us. I am finally seeing that its true. Stop hating so much, its a lot easier to love. Ve Ahavta Le'reiacha komocha. Please dont say it in davening anymore untill you learn the meaning of it. Maybe you should take rabbi hoffman as a chavrusa to learn it

164

 Mar 05, 2010 at 08:38 AM OMG Says:

Reply to #161  
formally Says:

to all who agree with this shameful act

would you be screaming and jumping if grossman was a gentle, or maybe scream fry him, since only Jews can have remorse and then they should be forgiven. gentle cannot have remorse and should be put to death

My guess is that most here vote conservative and like candidates who are for the death penalty. However, you should tell the candidate I mean only killers. who are gentiles, Jewish killer should be let go if they show remorse.


So are you or are you not for the death penalty?

Actually yes, in 1998 I did write letter on behalf Karla Faye Tucker, at then Governor of Taxes George W Bush.
Here is part of that story. Between 1984 and 1992, requests for a retrial of Karla Faye Tucker and all appeals were denied, but on June 22, 1992 Tucker requested that her life be spared on the basis that she was under the influence of drugs at the time of the murder and was now a reformed person. Her plea drew support from abroad and also from some leaders of American conservatism. Among those who appealed to the State of Texas on her behalf were Waly Bacre Ndiaye, the United Nations commissioner on summary and arbitrary executions; the World Council of Churches; Pope John Paul II; Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi; the Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives Newt Gingrich; televangelist Pat Robertson; and even Ron Carlson, the brother of Tucker's murder victim Debbie Thornton. The warden of Texas' Huntsville prison testified that she was a model prisoner and that, after 14 years on death row, she likely had been reformed. The board turned her down on January 28, 1998.
In the year following her execution, conservative commentator Tucker Carlson questioned Governor George W. Bush about how the Board of Pardons and Parole had arrived at the determination on her clemency plea. Carlson alleged that Bush, alluding to a televised interview which Karla Faye Tucker had given to talk show host Larry King, smirked and spoke mockingly about her.
As you could see that religious and conservatives did not shy away from trying to help a changed person but Jews are afraid it eludes me why?

165

 Mar 05, 2010 at 08:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #159  
Dave Says:

Why not. You already appear to agree with them on the proper kavod for murderers.

What utter nonsense.Hamas honors and glorifies people for the killing act,and that's the reason they honor them to show they support killing and to encourage others to do likewise.Compare that to this case and your comparing hamas to this is shameful.No one is saying look he did such a good thing,they are trying to get zechusim for his neshamah.

166

 Mar 05, 2010 at 09:32 AM OMG Says:

Reply to #165  
Anonymous Says:

What utter nonsense.Hamas honors and glorifies people for the killing act,and that's the reason they honor them to show they support killing and to encourage others to do likewise.Compare that to this case and your comparing hamas to this is shameful.No one is saying look he did such a good thing,they are trying to get zechusim for his neshamah.

Dave’s Hamas example is so off base, that I decided to mock him not argue with him anymore.

167

 Mar 05, 2010 at 12:07 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #154  
Anonymous Says:

Right so when Hamas gives out candies and money in honor of suicide bombers, they're just doing it to help the soul of the diseased. Got it. Great.

Take your comment and blow it up on an eight and a half by eleven, then put it eye level onto your mirror so that you see it every time you look yourself in the mirror. Hopefully with time, maybe a year and maybe even ten years you will finally see the folly of your words.

#165 had contrasted what you compared as if the contrast isn’t glaring enough. Let me ask you an honest question: Have you talked yourself into believing that anybody here supports the murder of Park’s? All your comments since the execution point to such a psychosis.

Why can’t you get it into your head that Grossman committed a terrible murder, the Park’s family suffered greatly, the justice system meted out justice, Grossman was legally executed, Grossman had become a changed man, a Baal Teshuvah, he is dead now leraving no one to say Kaddish for him; so Kolel Shomrei Hachomos who have been doing this since 1858, got a sponsor or they sponsored it themselves, and set up a Keren Kayemes (a perpetual fund) so that Kaddish should be said for his Neshomah the first year and then subsequently every year on his Yohrtzeit.

Kaddish is a Chesed Shel Emes. Naming a street after someone, that would be an honor.

168

 Mar 05, 2010 at 01:50 PM formally Says:

Reply to #167  
Askupeh Says:

Take your comment and blow it up on an eight and a half by eleven, then put it eye level onto your mirror so that you see it every time you look yourself in the mirror. Hopefully with time, maybe a year and maybe even ten years you will finally see the folly of your words.

#165 had contrasted what you compared as if the contrast isn’t glaring enough. Let me ask you an honest question: Have you talked yourself into believing that anybody here supports the murder of Park’s? All your comments since the execution point to such a psychosis.

Why can’t you get it into your head that Grossman committed a terrible murder, the Park’s family suffered greatly, the justice system meted out justice, Grossman was legally executed, Grossman had become a changed man, a Baal Teshuvah, he is dead now leraving no one to say Kaddish for him; so Kolel Shomrei Hachomos who have been doing this since 1858, got a sponsor or they sponsored it themselves, and set up a Keren Kayemes (a perpetual fund) so that Kaddish should be said for his Neshomah the first year and then subsequently every year on his Yohrtzeit.

Kaddish is a Chesed Shel Emes. Naming a street after someone, that would be an honor.

Kaddish is a Chesed Shel Emes

not if they are getting paid

169

 Mar 05, 2010 at 01:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #163  
anonymouse Says:

First of all being for or against the death penalty is not the issue here. Besides have you ever visited a family memnber in the hospital? Well did you visit everyone in the hospital or just your family member? If you didn't visit everyone then you are just as culpable as those who you are trying to blame for attempting to save grossman because he was jewish. There is nothing wrong with trying to save a family member. There are 6 billion people in the world. You have 15 million minus one. just remmember every soul was at har sinai in some shape or form. possibly connected to an earlier one, stop playing judge and jury. If you realy felt that Kulanu ahuvim and that he is your brother then you would be talking different but obviously you need to look deep inside yourself and all the others that were for frying this guy and do some soul searching. As it says that there still are Airuv Rav amongst us. I am finally seeing that its true. Stop hating so much, its a lot easier to love. Ve Ahavta Le'reiacha komocha. Please dont say it in davening anymore untill you learn the meaning of it. Maybe you should take rabbi hoffman as a chavrusa to learn it

I do look deep inside and I see what grossman did and he destroyed a family.

Justice has to be blind, since every killer has a brother, mother, father and family members. Should all killer be absolved because they have relatives. You can fight for a relative but you cannot ask the law to treat your family different than others.

again what do want Fl to do, exempt Jews from the death penalty and say only for goyim

170

 Mar 05, 2010 at 02:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #168  
formally Says:

Kaddish is a Chesed Shel Emes

not if they are getting paid

Those paying are doing a Chesed Shel Emes. Regardless who pays; for the Niftar it's a Chesed Shel Emes.

BTW those doing Tahara's, even if they were to get paid would be doing a Chesed Shel Emes. Anyone who does Tahara's is in my book is a Zaddik.

172

 Mar 05, 2010 at 02:47 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #169  
Anonymous Says:

I do look deep inside and I see what grossman did and he destroyed a family.

Justice has to be blind, since every killer has a brother, mother, father and family members. Should all killer be absolved because they have relatives. You can fight for a relative but you cannot ask the law to treat your family different than others.

again what do want Fl to do, exempt Jews from the death penalty and say only for goyim

Why can't you look deep outside and see what Grossman did with himself since then? As to your other point OMG has explained it clearly (in his many comments) if you would only listen.

173

 Mar 05, 2010 at 02:54 PM anonymouse Says:

Reply to #169  
Anonymous Says:

I do look deep inside and I see what grossman did and he destroyed a family.

Justice has to be blind, since every killer has a brother, mother, father and family members. Should all killer be absolved because they have relatives. You can fight for a relative but you cannot ask the law to treat your family different than others.

again what do want Fl to do, exempt Jews from the death penalty and say only for goyim

You rational is childish and in poor taste, I guess based on what you say if someone is drunk and causes a vehicular homicide which also ruins a family then he should be killed to because "he destroyed a family" thats a pathetic statement and reasoning. Your own words beg to question your earlier comments. You critisize all who cared about grossman but then you say "you can fight for a relative". No one asked the Law to treat anyone differently, there are far worse criminals in FL prisons who have been given life sentences also for killing cops. Do the research then talk. And as far as goyim vs yidden look up howard Ault hes jewish too but no one is going to try to save him. Why? because his case is very different then grossman. Grossman was high on drugs and from a poor upbringing. Ault in contrast knew what he was doing and was older.

174

 Mar 05, 2010 at 05:15 PM Yes Says:

Reply to #172  
Askupeh Says:

Why can't you look deep outside and see what Grossman did with himself since then? As to your other point OMG has explained it clearly (in his many comments) if you would only listen.

Let's not forget that jailhouse born again discovery of G-d. it's not like we NEVER hear of people becoming believers when they're faced with lethal injection. Why, it's a miracle!

175

 Mar 06, 2010 at 08:18 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #161  
formally Says:

to all who agree with this shameful act

would you be screaming and jumping if grossman was a gentle, or maybe scream fry him, since only Jews can have remorse and then they should be forgiven. gentle cannot have remorse and should be put to death

My guess is that most here vote conservative and like candidates who are for the death penalty. However, you should tell the candidate I mean only killers. who are gentiles, Jewish killer should be let go if they show remorse.


So are you or are you not for the death penalty?

Formally, why didn’t you reply to my comment # 164 which was directed to you? Or you just behave like a drive by shooting, where you throw a bomb but never debate. You see, you think that everyone who worked on Grossman’s behalf most be orthodox or Chasidic but you are wrong, some of us are reaching out to a brother Jew regardless what his religious affiliation is and yes I will reach out to any convict even not a Jew if they show the world that they are changed, with real deeds and good behavior for many years. As long the convict didn’t engage in genocide I will reach out and write a letter to support and beg for clemency. Maybe you need to free yourself from your anger towards religious people. All your posts is basically demagoguing the issues, because you are not happy with yourself, free yourself from your burden.

176

 Mar 11, 2010 at 03:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

May his soul live in Gan Eden forever, with Moshe Rabbeinu, and may your children have the zechut to reach the madreiga of kedusha that this zaddik had when he was niftar.

a cold-blooded murderer you say this about?

177

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