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Israel - Percent of Non Working Charedi Men Tripled

Published on: April 12, 2010 10:08 PM
By:  Haaretz
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Israel - The percentage of ultra-Orthodox men not working has more than tripled over the past 30 years. In 2008, 65% of Haredi men did not work, compared to only 21% in 1979, reveals the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies in Israel in its annual report.

Professor Dan Ben-David, the Taub Center’s executive director, said the state’s increased allowances and funding for groups including the ultra-Orthodox have enabled them to choose workforce nonparticipation as a lifestyle.

“At the same time, years of neglect of the human infrastructure, in particular in education, and the physical infrastructure, in particular transportation, prevent many people from [acquiring] the tools to manage in a modern, competitive economy,” wrote Ben-David in the center’s “State of the Nation Report - Society, Economy and Policy 2009.”

Three decades ago, the percentage of Jewish males in Israel who did not work was similar to that in Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development countries: 8.7% in Israel, compared to 8.2% in the OECD, the report states. Since then, the OECD numbers have risen by 50%, but in Israel the numbers almost doubled for Jewish males, and in 2008 were 25% higher than for OECD nations.

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A partial explanation lies in the Israeli educational system. The number of elementary students in state religious schools is increasing, by 8% over the past decade, while those in nonreligious schools has shrunk by 3% since 2000.

But the big changes have come elsewhere: The number of elementary school pupils in the Arab education system has risen 33% in the same period, and in ultra-Orthodox schools the increase was 51%. As of 2008, because of these demographic changes, 48% of all elementary school children were either Arab or Haredi.

“In order for these elementary schoolers to be integrated into the labor market, they must receive an education appropriate to the needs of a modern economy,” said Ben-David. “But the situation in Israel is such that the level of elementary education in basic subjects is lower than in the West, and among these two groups it is much lower.”

Due to the continuous growth in poverty and income inequality since the 1970s, National Insurance Institute allowances were increased over the years to help alleviate the drop in net income levels, states the report. But despite the sharp cuts at the beginning of this decade, the average per capita allowances in real terms are still five times what they were in 1970 - while the standard of living, as reflected in per capita GDP, only doubled over that period.

Ben-David said it is hard to see how such a gap could continue to exist in the future.

However, such demographic changes also have huge potential, said Ben-David, compared to the trends in developed nations. Israel has a very young population - but the educational system must be changed to prevent the increasing growth in poverty and income inequality. But Israel does have the knowledge necessary to make such changes and raise the standard of living to the levels in the West, he said, if only Israel were wise enough to provide the best education in the West.

Not using their rights

In other news of unemployment, the Employment Service reports little exploitation by the jobless of its relaxed rules regarding eligibility for benefits.

During the first half year of 2009, as the global economic crisis reached its peak, about 15,000 Israelis were losing their jobs each month. The trend turned in August 2009. Employment Service figures show that on average, 73,000 people claimed benefits each month, but it also found that most stopped claiming benefits before their eligibility expired, because they had found new jobs.

The maximal term for unemployment benefits is presently 175 days.



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1

 Apr 12, 2010 at 10:48 PM a reader Says:

what a busha. does anyone really beleive that in europe (or in the days of the tana'im/amoraim/rishonim) that the majority of the able-bodied men in klal yisroel did not work/provide for their families??
i wonder how many of these 65% actually read the words written in their k'subah (where the man obligates himself to provide financially/materially for his wife).

2

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
a reader Says:

what a busha. does anyone really beleive that in europe (or in the days of the tana'im/amoraim/rishonim) that the majority of the able-bodied men in klal yisroel did not work/provide for their families??
i wonder how many of these 65% actually read the words written in their k'subah (where the man obligates himself to provide financially/materially for his wife).

Actually, I cannot figure out how these folks go into Yom Kippur and plead saying "B'nafsho Tovi Lachmoh".

3

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:00 PM Liberalism Is A Disease!!! Says:

I am having a big problem believing this stat. I am sure it is cooked just a tad.

4

 Apr 12, 2010 at 10:59 PM Anonymous Says:

If the taxes for someone who owns a business wouldn't be suffocating from taxes, you'd find a lot more people willing to work. Whether a person cheats on taxes or not, if he is percieved to have, he is guilty. Their calculation of the money owed to them is also based on not reality, but again their perception. people normal drive to be self-sufficient is blown to pieces.

5

 Apr 12, 2010 at 10:57 PM Tevye Says:

As Shemayah said in Perkei Avos: Love work.

6

 Apr 12, 2010 at 10:55 PM seesrightthrough Says:

this story is a planted one that came from the Democrats. of course it isn't true, it paints chareidim in a negative light, it must be anti-semitic. thats what we get for voting for obama.

7

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Almos all of them have jobs. They are not alowed to own a bussiness due they don't serve in miltary so they all have to work off the books

8

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:23 PM Anonymous Says:

This cannot be true. No society in history has survived with as large a percentage of their male population making ZERO contribution to society and leaning on others for their livlihood and survival. Lets avoid using dergogatory language and focus on how to save this and coming generations of chareidi men from the hopelessness of their lives and make become something positive.

9

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:24 PM Anonymous Says:

No. 3. I agree with you . the numbers are cooked a tad . it is not 65% . It is more like 64% .

10

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Liberalism Is A Disease!!! Says:

I am having a big problem believing this stat. I am sure it is cooked just a tad.

It could be only 60%, I suppose.

I suspect it is right on the money, though.

11

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:28 PM A E ANDERSON Says:

Who pays for this Haredi welfare state?

12

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:31 PM chief doofis Says:

I find this hard to believe. Perhaps many members of this group start working at a later age. It's almost impossible to believe that most will not EVENTUALLY enter the work force. Since there are so many relatively younger members, the percentages are skewed. I wish there were statistics showing how many thirty year olds, thirty five year olds, etc.
While I'm not Charedi, and I don't fully approve of the educational and vocational systems inherent in their society, this article seems to be deliberately misleading people to despise them, rather than to politely disagree with them

13

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:32 PM chasid Says:

Money is always right. The State should not fund them, and obligate some form of military or public service on the. (Like visiting the sick etc.)
I believe only with economic force you can drive some sechel into these lost and wasted lives. I can only feel the pain and cry for all the abused wives and children paying the price of irresponsible leadership(leadership?!).
May we see Moshiach immediately and may the King show us the proper way!
But in the meantime, go work for your money.

14

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Its the problem of the state the charedi people don't work b/c in order to get a job without paying waping taxes you have to have passed the army which is in no way suitable for any frum boy the opposite is reality (regardles of what we think about the legitimacy of the state al pi torah)so the majoraty will opt to learn with some side jobs under the table rather than jeprodise their yiddishkeit.

15

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:36 PM Anonymous Says:

As someone who lived in Israel for a couple of years, I have seen it first hand.
Since they don't go to the army, almost everyone has to work off the books, so the record will always show that most people aren't working

16

 Apr 12, 2010 at 11:40 PM Anonymous Says:

since there are more younger people in Israel especially by the chareidi community. And since almost all of them stay in yeshiva untill they're in their low twenties. the precentage of unworking 'adults' will always be rising
I would like to know if the PRECENTAGE of 30 year olds not working is also rising

19

 Apr 13, 2010 at 12:46 AM rdj Says:

And the NON Chareidi men are doing what exactly? Selling sunflower seeds?

Oh maybe Obama could look at Israel for some Job Creation ideas
We can have here in America a million people selling seeds

20

 Apr 13, 2010 at 12:46 AM ??????? Says:

If it's true, it's disgusting!
I strongly believe, however, that it's very misconscrued.
A few reasons why are
Charedim start working at an older age (normaly over 25 y.o.). Being that their population more than doubles every 20 years the under 25 age group are the majoraty.
They don't go to the army and therefore cannot work on the books.

21

 Apr 13, 2010 at 01:51 AM moshe Says:

I am sure that the majority of that 65% including their wives and family are living a very happy and fulfilling life and dont want to change it so what are you gonna say ? their living off the govt? In America and Canada you get almost triple the ammount for child benefits.
Its important to remember the fact that most Israeli men cant go into the work force because they havent served in the army. I think if the wanted to change these numbers all they have to do is allow them to go out and get jobs.

22

 Apr 13, 2010 at 05:05 AM Israeli Says:

Ha'aretz, here we go again. #16 makes a good point.
You can find similar distorted figures in the Der Sturmer archives (yes, I've checked it. I can read German, even Gothic script).

23

 Apr 13, 2010 at 07:57 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #13  
chasid Says:

Money is always right. The State should not fund them, and obligate some form of military or public service on the. (Like visiting the sick etc.)
I believe only with economic force you can drive some sechel into these lost and wasted lives. I can only feel the pain and cry for all the abused wives and children paying the price of irresponsible leadership(leadership?!).
May we see Moshiach immediately and may the King show us the proper way!
But in the meantime, go work for your money.

Learning Torah full time *is* a public service; the state only survives on the zechus of that learning. Ideally the IDF would recognise this, and have official divisions learning Torah in uniform and under military discipline; then there would be no need for yeshivah deferrals.

24

 Apr 13, 2010 at 08:01 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #11  
A E ANDERSON Says:

Who pays for this Haredi welfare state?

The taxes of the other 35%, plus the majority of the women, are more than enough to pay for it, even taking the figure at face value.

25

 Apr 13, 2010 at 08:29 AM Anonymous Says:

I am a volunteer for a charadi organisation helping people who are in the poverty trap. Many people do work off the books, but earn far less than on the book jobs, most have no career or education so that they cannot get decent jobs paying enough to support their families. I learned in various so called "good kollelim" for 12 years, even one where the Rosh kollel is world reknown and yet 85% of the Avreichim shouldn't be there. Yet this is the life thatthey know and it is very difficult to get out of with no education or training. But who at 25 and upwards with a few kids wants to learn a career. The system is changing. It is though unfortunate that so many people comment with out really knowing what's going on.

26

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:06 AM clear in the rambam Says:

Rambam, Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10

Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah study and not to work, and will be supported by Tzedaka - this person Chillel es Hashem, degrades the Torah, extinguishes the light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in Olam haBo; since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world. The Rabbis said in Pirkei Avos 4:5: Anyone who derives benefit from the words of Torah in this world, forfeits his life in Olam haBo. They further commanded and said: Do not make the words of Torah a crown to magnify yourself or an axe with which to chop. They further commanded, saying: Avos 1:10 Love work and despise positions of power (Rabbonus). And: Avos 2:2 Any Torah which is not accompanied by work will eventually be nullified and will lead to sin. Ultimately, such a person will steal from others.

SOmebody here wants to argue with the Rambam, maybe?

27

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:12 AM chief doofis Says:

I attended Yeshiva until I was in my mid 20's. About 3:30 every afternoon, we ran home, grabbed a bite, and went to night college. Quite often, we made it back home by 9:00 and were back in the Bet Hamedrash for Ma'ariv and another hour of learning.
It took us a little longer than the usual four years to graduate, but we eventually had legitimate degrees, and sacrificed little of our Torah education. Many of my friends are still in Chinuch, or are constantly giving shiurim. laining or davening for the amud..
There is no need to be completely estranged from society in order to be 100% frum.

This system existed thirty years ago. Let's bring it back.

28

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
moshe Says:

I am sure that the majority of that 65% including their wives and family are living a very happy and fulfilling life and dont want to change it so what are you gonna say ? their living off the govt? In America and Canada you get almost triple the ammount for child benefits.
Its important to remember the fact that most Israeli men cant go into the work force because they havent served in the army. I think if the wanted to change these numbers all they have to do is allow them to go out and get jobs.

There are no "child benefits" in America - no one pays you money to raise your kids. Maybe you mean tax exemptions (the income that is not taxable) for every member of the family, including kids? Or government benefits to the VERY LOW income families that, of course, are proportional to the family size?

29

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:27 AM knowitall Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

If the taxes for someone who owns a business wouldn't be suffocating from taxes, you'd find a lot more people willing to work. Whether a person cheats on taxes or not, if he is percieved to have, he is guilty. Their calculation of the money owed to them is also based on not reality, but again their perception. people normal drive to be self-sufficient is blown to pieces.

What a silly cop-out. I work hard and pay lots of taxes as do all my colleagues. It does not diminish my drive to do well for my family. and to not rely on others.

30

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

If the taxes for someone who owns a business wouldn't be suffocating from taxes, you'd find a lot more people willing to work. Whether a person cheats on taxes or not, if he is percieved to have, he is guilty. Their calculation of the money owed to them is also based on not reality, but again their perception. people normal drive to be self-sufficient is blown to pieces.

I was in Yerushalyim Central Bus Station recently and wen to daven mincha in the shul there. I saw a group of Nachal Chareidi soldiers with black yarmulkes, beards and payos in their army uniforms. I was very proud. They were in great shape and had a tremendous air of confidence and purpose. A kiddush Hashem. This concept has to be expanded to the general chareidi population in other areas of life too.

31

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

I am a volunteer for a charadi organisation helping people who are in the poverty trap. Many people do work off the books, but earn far less than on the book jobs, most have no career or education so that they cannot get decent jobs paying enough to support their families. I learned in various so called "good kollelim" for 12 years, even one where the Rosh kollel is world reknown and yet 85% of the Avreichim shouldn't be there. Yet this is the life thatthey know and it is very difficult to get out of with no education or training. But who at 25 and upwards with a few kids wants to learn a career. The system is changing. It is though unfortunate that so many people comment with out really knowing what's going on.

Why is it so difficult to learn a trade before you're 25?

32

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:39 AM Menachem Says:

Reply to #23  
Milhouse Says:

Learning Torah full time *is* a public service; the state only survives on the zechus of that learning. Ideally the IDF would recognise this, and have official divisions learning Torah in uniform and under military discipline; then there would be no need for yeshivah deferrals.

They do. It's called Hesdar. There's nothing stopping Chareidi yeshivas from joining the Hesdar program.

33

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:41 AM Anonymous Says:

I don't understand how so many religious people think it's okay to work off the books. Fine, disagree with the government and complain about taxes all you want, but not paying taxes is stealing and last time I checked that was a pretty major problem in Judaism--why would anyone want to risk such a big aveira?

34

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:44 AM David Says:

Reply to #6  
seesrightthrough Says:

this story is a planted one that came from the Democrats. of course it isn't true, it paints chareidim in a negative light, it must be anti-semitic. thats what we get for voting for obama.

Actually, the stat comes from the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies in Israel, not from "the Democrats." Why you would spout such a foolish and obviously groundless allegation is beyond me.

35

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:45 AM Eli Shomroni Says:

Reply to #11  
A E ANDERSON Says:

Who pays for this Haredi welfare state?

"Who pays for this Haredi welfare state?"

You asked, A E Anderson, so I will answer you.

All those CHILONI Israelis, who are so hated and despised by the majority of the FRUMME Yiddn who read this blog, pay through their National Insurance contributions, .their Income Tax deductions and their IDF reserve duty days, that's who.

Eli Shomroni
Ramat Gan

36

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:45 AM jimmy37 Says:

Maybe it's time to stop contributing to these charities that simply enforce this self-imposed poverty.

37

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:49 AM David Says:

A much higher percentage of charedim must work. It is unfair to the rest of society, but just as importantly to the charedim themselves. I have seen it first hand how my charedi cousins struggle (50 degress in their house in safat in the winter).

38

 Apr 13, 2010 at 10:26 AM Dr. E Says:

With stats like this, no wonder that Kupat Hair and the likes are big business. The Chareidim have dug themselves into their own hole.

(1) They won't participate in the Army, which is the entre point for skills acquisition, an education, and working legally. They blame this on the Army not being a kosher place, but that is really just an excuse for not wanting to participate in any State-sponsored endeavor (as the Nachal Chareidi has not exactly taken off)

(2) They have dug their heels into the Torah-only approach and set out such a path for anyone in their camp to be "matzliach" in life to follow. This precludes education, skill acquisition and it is a zero-sum game. The percentage of people doing this is not only unrealistic for a functional society, but is unprecedented in Jewish History. The numbers of those learning full-time in previous generations was more like 10% than 90%. For those who cry that we still "have to rebuild after Churban Europe", I say "get over it; it's 2010".

Until the Chareidi velt admits that they have a problem, its leadership has been nonexistent, the popular Tzedaka appeals to subsidize this will continue.

Hashem yirachem.

39

 Apr 13, 2010 at 11:13 AM Anonymous Says:

Hey guys - all of you above bashing Charedim:

I'm Orthodox, Chareidi and Chassidish - I worked for 37 years and was fired - possible discrimination. I can't find a decent professional job because I'm Othodox, Chareidi and Chasidish. So we do want to work but can't find enough employers willing to hire.

Hashem Yeracheim al Am Yisroel.

40

 Apr 13, 2010 at 12:31 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

Hey guys - all of you above bashing Charedim:

I'm Orthodox, Chareidi and Chassidish - I worked for 37 years and was fired - possible discrimination. I can't find a decent professional job because I'm Othodox, Chareidi and Chasidish. So we do want to work but can't find enough employers willing to hire.

Hashem Yeracheim al Am Yisroel.

To me, a man who WANTS to work, but can't find work is as honorable as a man who works.

That being said, if more were educated properly, more of us would own businesses which would create more jobs. Let's be honest: In any group there are only a handful who even COULD build successful businesses on their own. However, even those with the intelligence and drive to build such businesses are encouraged to stay in yeshivos and stay AWAY from a proper education.

In years past, roshei yeshiva would evaluate the bochurim individually. Someone would be told to learn 15 hours a day, while others were told they SHOULD go to college and educate themselves. It seems that today this individual evaluation has gone by the wayside. The "one track for everyone" approach is obviously unsustainable. As our community grows in E"Y, it will become to large to be supported by the taxes of those who are chillul shabbos and the selling of treif in the rest of the country.

It seems that the days of our gedolim managing these things are long gone. It's pretty sad if you ask me.

41

 Apr 13, 2010 at 12:41 PM Ashkenazi Says:

Reply to #26  
clear in the rambam Says:

Rambam, Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10

Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah study and not to work, and will be supported by Tzedaka - this person Chillel es Hashem, degrades the Torah, extinguishes the light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in Olam haBo; since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world. The Rabbis said in Pirkei Avos 4:5: Anyone who derives benefit from the words of Torah in this world, forfeits his life in Olam haBo. They further commanded and said: Do not make the words of Torah a crown to magnify yourself or an axe with which to chop. They further commanded, saying: Avos 1:10 Love work and despise positions of power (Rabbonus). And: Avos 2:2 Any Torah which is not accompanied by work will eventually be nullified and will lead to sin. Ultimately, such a person will steal from others.

SOmebody here wants to argue with the Rambam, maybe?

He was a sefardi

42

 Apr 13, 2010 at 01:13 PM Anonymous Says:

We are "chareidi" Americans in Israel. My husband works in a serious career, in a world-reknown firm here and we send our kids to "chareidi" schools. Our hope is that our kids will work/ marry working guys. You can't necessarily change those around you but you can try and direct your kids' future. I think parents should make their effort to teach their child (especially SONS) a trade, even one that doesn't require a degree, which in Israel isn't always the biggest money maker anyway. Manual labor jobs (electrician, plumber etc) can sometimes make a lot of money here as a business. Just equip them with the ability to make money, that is your obligation. The girls should be educated but not pressured to be the money makers, but that is a whole different discussion.

43

 Apr 13, 2010 at 01:19 PM sam Says:

"Percent of Non Working Charedi Men Tripled"
Interesting, if you took the title of this article and cut the word Charedi out, you probably would have filled in the blank differently. That being said, it is a true Bizayon. I can't even count how many hebrew speaking individuals come to my home or shul saying that they need help to provide. No mention of a lost job, sickness etc. Just that they dont have money to provide for their every growing families. If you ask them about their business you get a blank stare. This is NOT what any of our previous generations of Gedolim had in mind.
Very unfortunate.

44

 Apr 13, 2010 at 01:51 PM come on Says:

Reply to #6  
seesrightthrough Says:

this story is a planted one that came from the Democrats. of course it isn't true, it paints chareidim in a negative light, it must be anti-semitic. thats what we get for voting for obama.

painting irresponsible chareidim in a negative light doesnt require anti-Semitism, being a democrat, or being an obama supporter.

it requires a belief in Judaism.

45

 Apr 13, 2010 at 02:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

Hey guys - all of you above bashing Charedim:

I'm Orthodox, Chareidi and Chassidish - I worked for 37 years and was fired - possible discrimination. I can't find a decent professional job because I'm Othodox, Chareidi and Chasidish. So we do want to work but can't find enough employers willing to hire.

Hashem Yeracheim al Am Yisroel.

Same thing happened to me. It was a kehilla organisation. They replaced me with some-one cheaper and less qualified/experienced. I wanted to sue them but the rabbonim of that organisation said it is messira. What could I do? I am now on government handouts an a zedoko manager who helps me. I want a job but who will hire me?

46

 Apr 13, 2010 at 03:20 PM David Says:

Reply to #23  
Milhouse Says:

Learning Torah full time *is* a public service; the state only survives on the zechus of that learning. Ideally the IDF would recognise this, and have official divisions learning Torah in uniform and under military discipline; then there would be no need for yeshivah deferrals.

Utterly ridiculous, and totally unsupported by the evidence. The state was founded by secular people over the strong objections of the Torah learning crowd. Now that there's money in it for them, the Torah learners run around claiming that they're the ones who keep the whole thing running. Chutzpah!

47

 Apr 13, 2010 at 03:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
Ashkenazi Says:

He was a sefardi

I hope you are kidding. Where do you think the center of Jewish life was at the time of the Rambam? In Spain and southern France. My yichus as the son of a Galitzianer einekle of the Hafloh and the Mateh Efraim and others goes back to Spain and Southern France and Italy. So too does that of most Jews from Eastern Europe. Sefardi?

48

 Apr 13, 2010 at 04:17 PM Baal Melocho Says:

This is a very sad state of affairs. What is even sadder is that a large proportion of that 65% don't desreve to learn. A small percentage indeed are worthy of toirosom umnosom but most of them aren't. They show up late to kollel, drink coffee all day do all the shopping and want us to give them the title of "Bnei Torah". The schools put pressure on them never to leave the "kolel club". It is ridiculous.

49

 Apr 13, 2010 at 05:31 PM Dr. E Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

We are "chareidi" Americans in Israel. My husband works in a serious career, in a world-reknown firm here and we send our kids to "chareidi" schools. Our hope is that our kids will work/ marry working guys. You can't necessarily change those around you but you can try and direct your kids' future. I think parents should make their effort to teach their child (especially SONS) a trade, even one that doesn't require a degree, which in Israel isn't always the biggest money maker anyway. Manual labor jobs (electrician, plumber etc) can sometimes make a lot of money here as a business. Just equip them with the ability to make money, that is your obligation. The girls should be educated but not pressured to be the money makers, but that is a whole different discussion.

I wish you much hatzlacha with your unrealistic "hope" (or dream) of sending your kids to Chareidi schools and then expecting them to pick up your own family values. The strategy of relying your kids to be the the exceptions to the rule never works in practice. That's just a social reality, more acutely so in Israel. You have already signed on to the Program and like "Hotel California", your kids can check out any time you want, but they can never leave.

50

 Apr 13, 2010 at 05:34 PM slick Says:

I wonder if this includes people working off the books

51

 Apr 13, 2010 at 06:10 PM Anonymous Says:

No. 23. Why dont you read The posting of No . 26 . and come up with something .If you can't say so .

52

 Apr 13, 2010 at 07:10 PM Anonymous Says:

No. 23."learning Torah full time is a public service " .You mean Yomum v'layla .

53

 Apr 13, 2010 at 07:10 PM Anonymous Says:

The bias generated by this Leftist article is obvious.

Chareidim can't get jobs now because they would be forced to go to the Army which would compromise much of their moral principles. There is very little accommodation of the Orthodox lifestyle in the Army.

The result of this is that they are forced out of the job market and must seek other means of support. The chilonim should provide other means for Government service which don't conflict with the practice of Judaism.

54

 Apr 13, 2010 at 09:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

The bias generated by this Leftist article is obvious.

Chareidim can't get jobs now because they would be forced to go to the Army which would compromise much of their moral principles. There is very little accommodation of the Orthodox lifestyle in the Army.

The result of this is that they are forced out of the job market and must seek other means of support. The chilonim should provide other means for Government service which don't conflict with the practice of Judaism.

If army service is a prerequisite for getting jobs in Israel, how is it that frum Jewish women, older olim, and Arabs manage to find jobs? Very few of them have served in the army. The real reason why the Chareidim work under the table is so that they won't pay income tax and won't lose their government handout.

The moral principle that most of the hard-core Chareidim feel that they are compromising by joining the Israeli army is that they believe that the Israeli government has no right to ask them to do anything. Thus, there is nothing that the Israeli government can do to persuade the fanatics to join the army and to contribute to society; according to most Chareidim, the only functions of the Israeli government that they will accept are the welfare programs, the educational handouts, and protection against foreign enemies. There are a small number of Chareidim who are joining the army (which bends over backwards to accommodate them), but the fanatics among them look down upon this practice.

55

 Apr 13, 2010 at 10:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

If army service is a prerequisite for getting jobs in Israel, how is it that frum Jewish women, older olim, and Arabs manage to find jobs? Very few of them have served in the army. The real reason why the Chareidim work under the table is so that they won't pay income tax and won't lose their government handout.

The moral principle that most of the hard-core Chareidim feel that they are compromising by joining the Israeli army is that they believe that the Israeli government has no right to ask them to do anything. Thus, there is nothing that the Israeli government can do to persuade the fanatics to join the army and to contribute to society; according to most Chareidim, the only functions of the Israeli government that they will accept are the welfare programs, the educational handouts, and protection against foreign enemies. There are a small number of Chareidim who are joining the army (which bends over backwards to accommodate them), but the fanatics among them look down upon this practice.

Older olim either served or are beyond service age. Arabs either serve or are denied service by the state and who says that they work?

You claim that Chareiding work under the table so you say that they are working. The article didn't claim this and what is your source for this information?

The Chareidim have a strong basis for not wanting to join a band of anti religious hardliners who don' t really want them anyways.

From articles printed here indicating the coercion for Orthodox men to listen to women singing it does not appear that they are bending very far for the Orthodox. More options are necessary to open up the doors to normal employment.

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 Apr 13, 2010 at 11:04 PM Kollel for Life Says:

Since when is learning considered not working? I work very hard at my learning - have you not heard of amelim b'torah? I am employed by Hakodosh Boruch Hu!!

Eretz Yisroel and indeed the entire world, exists only in zchus of my torah and those who study l'shem shamayim. If you work, have parnassa, health and good fortune - it comes because of my learning.Therefore, it is a zchus for "zevulun" to support yissochor.

57

 Apr 13, 2010 at 11:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

Older olim either served or are beyond service age. Arabs either serve or are denied service by the state and who says that they work?

You claim that Chareiding work under the table so you say that they are working. The article didn't claim this and what is your source for this information?

The Chareidim have a strong basis for not wanting to join a band of anti religious hardliners who don' t really want them anyways.

From articles printed here indicating the coercion for Orthodox men to listen to women singing it does not appear that they are bending very far for the Orthodox. More options are necessary to open up the doors to normal employment.

You have proven my point----if army service is necessary to get a job, why are older olim (who have not served because they are beyond service age) able to find a job? Most Arabs do not serve, yet most work. (Maybe you've heard about all those Arab day laborers who complain when the Israelis shut down the borders?) Many Chareidi women work, even though only a tiny percentage serve even in Sherut Leumi.

I never said that most Chareidi men work. I was merely refuting the poster (yourself?) who said that those Chareidim who work have to do so off the books because they can't get legitimate jobs because they didn't serve. They work under the table so that they don't pay taxes to a government that they despise, and they work under the table so that the government doesn't cut off welfare benefits.

58

 Apr 13, 2010 at 11:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
Kollel for Life Says:

Since when is learning considered not working? I work very hard at my learning - have you not heard of amelim b'torah? I am employed by Hakodosh Boruch Hu!!

Eretz Yisroel and indeed the entire world, exists only in zchus of my torah and those who study l'shem shamayim. If you work, have parnassa, health and good fortune - it comes because of my learning.Therefore, it is a zchus for "zevulun" to support yissochor.

Hatzlacha rabba to you. You are the true neturei karta (watchers of the city) as indicated in Sanhedrin (not the notorious group). May Hashem grant you a chelek like shevet Levi as brought down in the Rambam.

59

 Apr 13, 2010 at 11:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Anonymous Says:

You have proven my point----if army service is necessary to get a job, why are older olim (who have not served because they are beyond service age) able to find a job? Most Arabs do not serve, yet most work. (Maybe you've heard about all those Arab day laborers who complain when the Israelis shut down the borders?) Many Chareidi women work, even though only a tiny percentage serve even in Sherut Leumi.

I never said that most Chareidi men work. I was merely refuting the poster (yourself?) who said that those Chareidim who work have to do so off the books because they can't get legitimate jobs because they didn't serve. They work under the table so that they don't pay taxes to a government that they despise, and they work under the table so that the government doesn't cut off welfare benefits.

I have proven that the 3 groups that you mention have no fear of being forced into a hostile non religious environment as do able bodied your Charedim who would want to work. Therefore, there is no comparison between the 3 and the 1.

Those who work off the books are trying to do something to support themselves without being forced into the pernicious environment. Would you rather that they just solicited funds? The government owes them the support by depriving them of a reasonable way to make their own way.

60

 Apr 14, 2010 at 02:44 AM Anonymous Says:

To Dr. E. (49), from 42,
We're not the only ones like as, as the parent body at our school has many working parents too. According to the stats above, 35% are working.... we're just helping expand those numbers, and we chose to live in an area that has a greater concentration of working class (read Ramat Beit Shemesh as opposed to Jerusalem).

61

 Apr 14, 2010 at 11:42 AM Richard Nixon Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

No. 3. I agree with you . the numbers are cooked a tad . it is not 65% . It is more like 64% .

Maybe the numbers were compiled by someone with a charaidi education and the figure is really 6.5%.

62

 Apr 14, 2010 at 06:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
Anonymous Says:

I have proven that the 3 groups that you mention have no fear of being forced into a hostile non religious environment as do able bodied your Charedim who would want to work. Therefore, there is no comparison between the 3 and the 1.

Those who work off the books are trying to do something to support themselves without being forced into the pernicious environment. Would you rather that they just solicited funds? The government owes them the support by depriving them of a reasonable way to make their own way.

You originally said that Chareidi men can't get jobs because they choose not to go to the Israeli army. I showed that there are 3 groups of people in Israel who also tend not to go to the army, yet they have jobs. It is irrelevant WHY they don't go to the army. Therefore, your argument is erroneous. Stop using that as an excuse for the actions of the Chareidi men. It is wrong to say that the government deprives them of a reasonable way to make their own way. These men can serve, just as other religious men do.

What is true in your statement is that these men feel that the government owes them something---whether it is government support of yeshivas (with no standards attached) or generous welfare benefits. How many rebbeim tell their students that it's OK to work? Not too many---the "working boy" is considered less worthy than the "learning boy".

63

 Apr 15, 2010 at 03:36 AM PMO Says:

Reply to #56  
Kollel for Life Says:

Since when is learning considered not working? I work very hard at my learning - have you not heard of amelim b'torah? I am employed by Hakodosh Boruch Hu!!

Eretz Yisroel and indeed the entire world, exists only in zchus of my torah and those who study l'shem shamayim. If you work, have parnassa, health and good fortune - it comes because of my learning.Therefore, it is a zchus for "zevulun" to support yissochor.

Nobody doubts you and it may seem like there are many people ganging up here, so let me put a few things in perspective.

1. There was a time when rabbonim would select, after careful evaluation, those who would continue learning full-time and those who would learn a trade.

For example, on my grandmother's side, her father and three of her uncles were rebbaim in Stopnica Poland. Her other 2 uncles got into some kind of grain/baking business (thanks in large part to my grandFATHER's family oddly enough). I am sure it was not that they were not intelligent, but that their minds and hands were best suited for business. They helped to support the entire family.

THAT is what is missing today. Sadly, we are experiencing a STEEP decline in education which really is NEEDED to make any kind of living today. Whether it is college or trade school, men and women need to be able to properly support their families. What will happen in the next generation when a boy won't be able to find machatunim to buy him a house because they have even LESS money?

Its time to fix this problem.

That being said, I hope you continue in your success.

64

 May 02, 2010 at 05:48 PM Eliyahoo William Dwek Says:

Any man who chooses to be a ‘rabbi’ (‘true teacher’ of Torah) or a ‘dayan’ (‘judge’), or a ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) should be doing so Voluntarily. Out of his pure love for Hashem and the Torah. And his Ahavat Yisrael.

If he refuses to do community work voluntarily, and wants and accepts payment for everything he does, such a man should not be heading a community. He should get a job and earn a living. He can collect milk bottles or clean the windows. That is what is called ‘earning a living’.

Torah is learned, studied and taught: out of Love. Voluntarily. But the ‘rabbis’ have turned the Torah into their ‘Profession’, from which they earn money.

We are commanded in the Shema to:
‘LOVE Hashem, your G-d, WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and with all your soul and with all your might.’

‘VE’AHAVTA et Hashem Elokecha BECHOL LEVAVECHA uvechol nafshecha uvechol meodecha.’ (Devarim, Vaethanan, 6:4-5)

Is the ordinary man or woman PAID to pray to Hashem, or to say some words of Torah? No. Has veshalom! But the rabbis are. These men can give ‘lovely’ shiurim that they have rehearsed. But they would not give a shiur without being paid for it.

The true hachamim and rabbis of old, all actually worked at proper jobs and professions.
Wake up! Even a little child could have worked this out. These salaried men can never truly stand for the Torah, because in a case of conflict between a correct course of action according to the Torah, and the rabbi or rav’s pocket – his pocket and position will always prevail.
Pirkei Avot: (2:2)
“Raban Gamliel beno shel Rabi Yehuda HaNassi omer: yafeh talmud Torah im derech eretz, sheyegiat shenaihem mashkachat avon. Vechol Torah she’ein imah melacha sofa betailah ve’goreret avon. Vechol haoskim im hatzibbur yiheyu imahem leShem Shamayim……”
“Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabi Yehuda HaNassi, said: It is good to combine Torah study with a worldly occupation, for working at them both drives sin from the mind. All Torah without an occupation will in the end fail and lead to sin. And let all who work for the community do so for the sake of Heaven………”

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