New York – Rabbi Therapist: Today’s Yeshiva System Is A Recipe To Create Kids At-Risk

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    New York – Recently there has been much discussion about the pervasive problem of Jewish teens that are at risk. These are the kids you see hanging around street corners, getting into to trouble and dropping out of our yeshivah system.

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    Unfortunately what may have been a unique occurrence just twenty years ago is becoming a common scenario whether you are yeshivish or chassidish.

    Today, there isn’t a person who doesn’t know someone who as at risk, be it their own child, a cousin, or a kid that lives on their block.

    As a marriage and family therapist that has spent over 10 years responding to at-risk issues through parenting classes, counseling, and running mentoring programs, I have several thoughts about this issue.

    In my book “At Risk – Never Beyond Reach” I tell the story of a boy named Moshe who had been kicked out of three schools before his parents brought him to me for therapy. Desperate, exhausted, and on the edge of despair, his parents asked me for a “magic pill” for Moshe’s at -risk behavior. I thought deeply about their dilemma and offered the following response: “The magic pill for at-risk behavior is building a relationship with your child. Independent of what you are going through and how far he has gone astray, you need to go the extra mile to make sure they know you care and you will always be in their life.”

    To state the point more clearly, I told these parents about a simple formula I created that states I=QR, where Impact (I) is directly proportional to the Quality of Relationship (QR) you develop with your child. The more relationship, the greater impact you will have in their life.

    Unfortunately, the message Moshe’s parents got from our yeshivas, is quite different. I think it reads like this: T+C=HR, where Tuition + Conformity = High Revenue. Unfortunately children who don’t conform, or parents who can’t pay full tuition, will be the first korbonos of a yeshiva system that places money and obedience before the needs of parents and their children.

    In general our yeshiva system has become too elitist and too inflexible to meet the needs of a growing percentage of Jewish children.

    Let me be perfectly clear: most yeshivas today only want to accept kids who are known as APKs or Auto Pilot Kids. They expect that children will be able to sit in large classrooms (25-30 per class) listening to one Rebbe, chap the gemarah after one lecture, and rely little on the teacher for their personal, intellectual, or emotional needs.

    The truth is that a large and growing percentage of our children don’t fit this mold. Many require individual attention, smaller classrooms, lessons and homework sheets suited to their needs, and a Rebbe that cares more about them than their marks. Many of our children need personalized attention, visually-based instruction (like slides or power point presentations), and Rebbes that are able to complement and bond with children who don’t necessarily fit the mold. Our yeshivas mistakenly offer an education that doesn’t reflect the dictum “Chanoch leNoar lifee Darcho” – to educate a child according to their way; rather, they maintain its “lifee Darcheinu” meaning “it’s our way or the highway.” So a significant proportion of Jewish children are rejected and find themselves out of the schools they need and onto the streets.

    Unlike 50 years ago when the street was still safe and the fabric of society was strong, our children – especially those at risk – quickly become sucked into a virtual shturem of popular culture that exists on billboards, storefronts, on cell phones, and in our homes via the Internet.

    Who is to blame?

    I would find it difficult if not disingenuous to blame our children for their problems. It would be akin to blaming a baby for having colic or a accusing a first grader of not being able to read when they have been diagnosed with dyslexia. The bottom line is that since our yeshivas are unable to respond to the individual needs of their students, they have pushed out countless numbers of neshamos – and families – into despair because they don’t fit into their system.

    I believe that we have failed our youth and not the other way around. Unfortunately, teenagers often don’t see the link between their actions today and the consequences tomorrow. They have the mindset that they are indestructible and immune to the problems that others experience. Worse, some of these teens who are removed from our yeshiva system will experiment with alcohol or drugs and stop, or continue to use occasionally. Others will develop a dependency and will end up causing significant harm to themselves, their families, and Jewish society.

    As their situation spirals downhill, many of these rejected teenagers are diagnosed with clinical depression. If left untreated or ignored, it can be a devastating illness for the teen and their family. If allowed to continue, depression can lead to attempts at suicide. These teens also find themselves without social supports, adequate nurturing from parents, and the ability to function in school settings.

    When teens break away from their families and schools they also find more opportunities to become involved in socially unacceptable activities. Peers have tremendous influence among their fellow teens and a youth’s behavior is often dictated by whether their peer group is involved in drugs, inappropriate relationships and other forms of antisocial behavior.

    The more of these factors that are present in a teen’s life, the more likely it is that he or she will become involved in problem behavior. And the more likely they will eventually find themselves in dysfunctional relationships and difficult marriages.

    The challenge our yeshivas are facing is to provide nourishing environments so that all of our children – whether they are Auto Pilot Kids or not – can be hopeful regarding their futures. Prevention programs must be developed with young children before they become involved in antisocial groups and leave our precious traditions and community for the outside world.

    There are steps that our yeshivas can take to remedy the situation. In my work with teens and with help from the experts, I have found that a teen’s life can undergo a turnaround. A famous American general, statesman and popular public speaker, made a C in high school and later went on to achieve his undergraduate and master’s degrees. A frum principle in a public school in the Bronx took his low achieving school from the bottom to the top in district test scores. A teen with a C average and a 14 on her ACT test graduated from college and has a lucrative career.

    These examples show that underachieving children can make a significant contribution to our school and communities. If they do not receive help to help themselves, they could be stuck in a corner in life. Let us get them out of that corner and into our yeshivas and on to a successful life of Torah and Mitzvos.

    In order to change the situation, I propose a 12 point plan to transform our yeshivas and include parents as active participants in their child’s future:

    For schools

    1. School principals or Rosh Yeshivas need to communicate their love and acceptance for all their students. They can request the highest levels of standards for their institutions, but when facing children who are not achieving their potential, they need to reach out to them with unconditional love and acceptance. Then, they should take each child’s case as their own and seek out more information about why they are falling behind.

    2. Teachers need to receive a little sensitivity/awareness about how to relate to teens that don’t conform. Many would also benefit from learning relationships skills on how to offer their difficult students space to be themselves, and a classroom where they can feel comfortable. They need to take extra care with at-risk kids and treat them as they would treat their own children if they were struggling in school or at home. Often, just a few minutes of warm relationship-focused talk with a teacher can instill a sense of hope, dignity and improve self-esteem.

    3. Schools need to create a second track where students who find gemarah difficult can study other practical subjects where they can learn important life skills that will lead towards employment and opportunity. Such programs include technical skills, graphic arts, business and computer skills. When students find satisfaction in learning they will be more interested in maintaining their connection to their schools, families, and communities.

    4. Tutoring programs – Academic weaknesses should be identified before they turn into problems and more personalized tutoring experienced must be organized. Many who receive effective tutoring early on can show significant improvement in a relatively short amount of time.

    5. Monitor and learn of any at risk issues early on such as depression, ADHD, or family issues and get help, if needed, for the teens at risk.

    6. Instill confidence along with loving discipline. Give deserved praise only, without showering teens with praise. Make teens take responsibility for own actions and discipline wisely but not so harshly that children feel rejected and abandoned by the system.

    7. Each yeshivah needs to appoint a Rebbe who is trained as a pseudo professional by senior Mechanchim and psychologists to know how to identify and intervene with at-risk issues.

    8. When the situation seems unsolvable, school administrators need to request that teens and their parents work with trusted and capable psychologists or marriage and family therapists to help them work through their issues, improve communication, and find ways to improve their relationship, and increase attachment, love and bonding.

    9. Parents of children who are at risk must be invited by schools to attend parenting classes by qualified Rabbeeim and psychologists who are able to spot negative patterns of interaction and intervene when necessary.

    For Parents

    10. Monitor video and computer time. Make a joint decision about time for homework and other activities. If the teens at risk participate in the decision, a better feeling about choices should result.

    11. Know the teen’s friends. If the underachiever hangs out with others who think getting good grades is not “cool,” talk with the teen about success, pointing out that being different is a challenge worth undertaking.

    12. Love, listen, and motivate – Parents need to spend quality time with their underachieving teens at risk. Getting the teen to talk with parents and listening attentively, can open many doors. Learn what motivates the teen, and show that your love is constant. Give hugs.

    I firmly believe that through adopting these key steps and engaging principals, Rosh Yeshivas, community leaders, and parents in a meaningful discussion, we can change the deteriorating situation and possibly save a generation of teens who can become productive members of our community. We need to communicate to our children that they are never “beyond reach.” Changing our yeshiva system is a good place to start.

    Rabbi Daniel Schonbuch, MA, is a marriage and family therapist and maintains a private practice in Brooklyn. He is the author of “At Risk – Never Beyond Reach”. To receive a free copy or to make an appointment call 646 428 4723, email: [email protected] or visit www.JewishMarriageSupport.com


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    110 Comments
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    shimonyehuda
    shimonyehuda
    13 years ago

    if we have solutions why are they not being implemented? this has been going on for more then twenty years i think we have had these problems for at least 50 years

    kollelfaker
    kollelfaker
    13 years ago

    first of all which came first the chicken or the egg in my dealings with many of these young men i have found them as has a rebbe in a major yeshiva to be highly intelligent what needs to be found is why they are turned off in my sons case it was a rebbe that chose serveral 8th graders and made fools of them belittleing them and psychologically attacking them by rthe time i found out the damage was done if not for a rosh haYeshiva of an old time school that took him under his wing showing him love and tolerance we would have had a major problem

    lets stop going to the problem for answers its time we started checking our yeshivas and seeing how they are destroying our youth
    my son learnt in israel and will graduate medical school shortly

    fiftyseven
    fiftyseven
    13 years ago

    moshiach would be the only magic solution! Anyone who thinks otherwise (even if ur a therapist) is living in dream land!

    CountryYossi
    CountryYossi
    13 years ago

    Dear Rabbi Daniel Schonbuch :You have the right recepies for a perfect schooling system but unfortunate the yeshivas can NOT afford to implement those ideas without getting paid the fair tuition to hire the BEST melamdim and teachers..Our society is so over burdened with bills and cost of living that we simply can not afford to pay what it really cost to run a perfect system….Parents are struggling to put food on the table and saving every penny for tuition but cant afford even a private tutor to help out with their childrens problems….We face a major catastrophe in the Olem Hatorah and we need REAL Gedole Hador and Tzadikim who can address and fix those problems…

    AuthenticSatmar
    AuthenticSatmar
    13 years ago

    A school is a business. This is their system, and it works for the majority. If your child is an exception it’s the parents responsibility to find a working solution. It is not the responsibility of the school to develop custom education plans for each child. Today most schools are quite accommodating to some extent and allow some flexibility. To overturn the process because of a few is not fair to the majority.
    Additionally much of what is being suggested costs alot of money. As it is most tuitions do not cover the true cost of a child’s education.
    Today a parent has many choices as to where to educate their child. If a child has special needs he must be placed in an appropriate institution. Demanding that every school accommodate them is like walking into Kosher Delight and demanding a slice of pizza.

    13 years ago

    The worst thing for a child is to have a teacher that hates them. People that hate children should not be allowed into a classroom.

    Unbelievable
    Unbelievable
    13 years ago

    Well written and said. I hope this will one day be implemented.

    13 years ago

    This man is spot on. The problems will only continue to grow unless steps are taken immediately to remedy this. Firstly, there are too many yeshivot and many of them are far too small to be able to employ sufficient and qualified staff. If many of these schools would amalgamate, the cost reductions would allow for the hiring of psychological support staff. Next, not all children are cut out for yeshivah life. Offering other subjects would allow these students to remain in the correct environment while preparing themselves for jobs, trade schools and universities. It is far more preferable to have your child learning graphic arts or whatever in a yeshivah than in a public or secular private school. Unfortunately, many parents are of the opinion that their child is well able to function in a yeshivah when it is patently obvious that they cannot. Combine this with Rosh Yeshivot who don’t want the small schools to close because they will lose their positions of power. Something must change or an entire generation is at risk – some of these kids will be so far off the derech that the parents will pray for them to attend a reform temple because it is far better than the path they chose.

    Cohen
    Cohen
    13 years ago

    I’m not worried. Yeshivas don’t know how to follow recipes anyway

    shosh
    shosh
    13 years ago

    In retrospect, I often wonder why we took out a second mortgage, sold our home to pay for tuition, when we could have home schooled our children. That way they didn’t have to be bullied by the children of the “executives” and “teachers”, who in reality knew less and behaved in ways unsuitable to our Derech eretz and “education.”Excellent article.

    mikeetg
    mikeetg
    13 years ago

    The reason for the lack of implementation of these ideas is simple.
    No $$$$$ for the proper training and resources.

    And the schools and poor teachers who work their guts out for little pay and no training then get blamed for the mess.

    lbpss
    lbpss
    13 years ago

    This is to the principal in monsey who became a self proclaimed doctor and said to 30 kids you can not come back next year unless you are on meds, some kids were lucky enough to only “need” therapy, even though a professional licensed therapist said no. He did one thing by this, he lost kids from his cheder who some today are in modern yeshivas because no one else would accept them because of the stigma this “menahel” put on them. I don’t think he can say yudeini lo shufchi as hadom hazeh.

    This is also to the yeshivas who don’t accept a bochur because he is not up to par, who’s par, your’s or hashem’s?

    There is one yeshiva in monsey which currently has boys in their yeshiva who if not they would be on the streets kol hakovod to them.

    getitright
    getitright
    13 years ago

    while i didnt read each word of the article only a quick perusal, i do want to let the author know that Daas Torah agrees with him.

    when theRosh yeshiva of TYP Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky was asked the same question, his short response was ” keep close with the children be involved with them, then you will have no problems, none of the at risk saga pertains to children who are close with their parents”

    as a parent struggling with a minor issue i have discovered the reality of the authors “l’fi Darcheinu” attitude found in schools. my way or the highway.

    one point i may add is that their “inflexibility” is due to a componnent of pride. they want top tier status and the glory of being top.

    being anything but the best hurts their reputation and can cause serious irrepaiable damage.

    rarely is it the “childs” best interest that is guiding/determining their ultimate decision regarding a childs future.

    hence the concept of “Mechanchim” being “Mechanech” our children as in “chanoch L’annar” is forgotten.

    it is time to bring out the best roll out the talent and allow a new generation of “mechanchim” to take over.

    for the sakeof our children and sake of our nations future.

    scmaness
    scmaness
    13 years ago

    it also helps if the children are checked for health problems,anyone actually,trace minerals are valuable for the mind to work well,l can’t stress this enought,including fish oil,anyone interested in the holistic nutritionist that l used,can email me scmaness gmail.com

    SandmanNY
    SandmanNY
    13 years ago

    As long as the yeshiva system focuses on making every student into a talmid chacham and the next gadol hador (which only a tiny handful can qualify for) – and as long as the yeshiva system makes sitting in yeshiva the lifelong career focus, we will have worsening problems like this. Where are the next frum carpenters, accountants, biologists, surgeons, and chefs coming from? Why so little vocational training? If I were a kid in today’s yeshiva system, I would be beyond m’yuash.

    13 years ago

    If all the Yeshivos would call these kids – KIDS WITH HOPE – then their attitude would be different towards these kids and much more would be accomplished.
    Also the Rebbis, Teachers and Principals should be trained to recognize an issue (not a problem) with these kids early enough, whether the parents agree or not, they could be helped and with Hashem’s help and HOPE they’ll turn out fine.

    13 years ago

    Except for a few minor details, this author is absolutely correct. As a professional in the field, I would sign my name to this as an endorsement. However, I have learned that allowing my name to be connected to anything that sounds like placing any responsibility to “chinuch”, noting that they are doing anything wrong, is dangerous. I have been publicly accused and mocked for insinuating that yeshivos bear any responsibility for the current situation. Hence, I remain anonymous. I will distribute responsibility to more than yeshivos, but they will get their portion, as noted quite proficiently by Rabbi Schonbuch.

    The dream of reforming our educational system is still fantasy. However, there are yeshivos that are starting on a different footing, gaining popularity slowly. I pray that these new mosdos will succeed and serve as a model that will catch on – to benefit Klal Yisrael and save the priceless neshamos that have been abandoned and ending up in the streets.

    Raphael_Kaufman
    Raphael_Kaufman
    13 years ago

    All yeshivas say they want “mitzuyanim”, the best of the best bachurim. What yeshivas really want are bachurim with average (for Ashkenazi Jews) intelligence who can sit quietly in shiur, follow the rebbi’s discourse inside and can parrot it back in a bechina. As long as they don’t as really penetrating questions, wear the uniform and behave and, by the way, whose parents can pay full tuition, they’re in. The kids at the ends of the bell curve don’t fare so well. Those at the lower end are undesireable because they require more resources, I.E. money, to be brought along and the ones at the high end are undesireable because they are more apt to challenge and undermine the authority of the rebbis and the hanhalah by asking difficult questions.

    Please note that the terms “off the derech” and “at risk” are not interchangeable. “At risk” refers to antisocial, self-destructive and criminal behavior such as alcohol or drug addiction, petty crime and relations with the opposite sex. When a teen rejects all or part of his parent’s or yeshiva’s mesorah he does not automatically become at risk.

    DavidMoshe
    Active Member
    DavidMoshe
    13 years ago

    The whole yeshiva system is a disaster and should be scrapped in favor of solid public educations with a few hours a week of Judaic instruction elsewhere. We build yeshivas not to educate students, but to indoctrinate them, and to crank out automatons who will be considered successful precisely to the extent that their thought patterns never deviate from the hashkofo of the particular yeshiva. Orthodoxy is destroying its own intellectual traditions in favor of groupthink and conformity. In such a system, creative thinkers and children who ask serious questions will practically be shoved “off the derech.” In the end, that’s probably the nicest thing the system can do for them.

    lazer12004@yahoo.com
    13 years ago

    its time to retire the rebeim that are 50 years of age + i find that they have no pations for kids that need that extra push its either u listen to me or get your self a tutor

    rachzag
    rachzag
    13 years ago

    the rabbi is right but it goes alot farther
    the problem with the system is that people think just because they sat in yeshiva all their lives and know a tosfot they know how to be a rebbe
    the problem is that the rebbes dont know any “jewdism” to give over besides all the rest of the teaching skills.10 to 15 years ago there was a concept of emuna pashuta but now a days with technology and the outside world people need reasons for what they r doing and the rebbaim dont know the answers themselves
    their is more to being a jew then gemorrah. you have for starters chumush and rashi and all the commentarys on the side
    this is pshat remez drush hashkafa…..
    their lies the answers
    ive been teaching at risk students for 10 yrs now
    this only a piece of my mind

    FFB-Teaneck
    FFB-Teaneck
    13 years ago

    How do you define ‘at risk youth’ are they the ones who are good kids but not interested in larning/yidishkeit or are they the bad ones who are on the streets causing trouble/doing drugs??

    13 years ago

    Maybe there should be a vaad composed of Baalei Batim and Rabonim that have a little common sense to give guide lines and hadrucho to every Yeshiva. We have hashgocho on bheimes and chickens. Why not have hashgocho on Mosdos. We may as well watch what is done financially with money gotten from the government and parents. This could be a start.

    sane
    sane
    13 years ago

    In my elementary school and high school, many boys – even the top ones, wore knitted yarmulkas and colored shirts. These same people are today very well adjusted mechanchim and baal habatim. If you want to create robots, open a factory with an assembly line.

    Godol-Hador
    Godol-Hador
    13 years ago

    Its all about MONEY. If the schools had it, it would be better and they would be able to pay for more and better teachers. If the reform Rabbis YM”S wouldn’t oppose vouchers things would be a bit better.
    I pay thousands a year (!!) In property taxes For Public schools my children and none of my communities children use.
    The answer is only one thing. Funding. Without money nothing will change

    Trying
    Trying
    13 years ago

    There is one Yeshiva that implements many of these ideas, and that is the Yeshiva of Waterbury. The menahel of the high school is a true tzaddik who shows the bachurim love and understanding. Two of my sons go there. One was not accepted into a local yeshiva as he did not fit the mold, the other decided to go there because he was tired of being forced to fit a particular mold. They have now brought many friends of theirs there. It is a great yeshiva which all others should emulate.

    Member
    13 years ago

    Liberalize the educational process. Keep the kids learning and reading. Allow the kids to explore learning that may not be scheduled. Push torah learning, discuss current events. Require increased critical thinking. Public education is not the end of Judaism and I am proud that was my experiences. The memories have lasted a lifetime. Perhaps an increase in sciences, mathematics, history (american, european and religious) would be a good thing. Never pass up the opportunity to teach books such as Cry the Beloved Country, Farenheight 451, Of Mice and Men and other ‘secular’ insturments of learning.. They’ve shaped the rest of the world. Judaism can not exist without the non Jewish studies. I was disapointed to learn that kids in the hebrew schools in my state avoid mathematics and have little concept of sciences. Allow internet use to improve learning.

    sasregener
    sasregener
    13 years ago

    Rabbi Zecharya Wallerstein has a high school for girls that have fallen between the cracks it’s called Ateres Chaya. These girls are from your typical frum families in Monsey, Lakewood, New York etc,…He also has a Seminary and Night Program for girls from all backgrounds 17-120 called Ateres Naava. You people have no clue what is going on out there with our girls. Whatever you think you know, multiply that by 100 and then maybe you will just touch the tip of the iceberg. I see on a daily basis the issues out there. Drugs, Unwed Pregnancies etc.. all this from girls from regular frum families. I don’t mean to be disrespectful but If you people out there only had a clue you would drop whatever you are doing and run to A shul and daven 24/7 for Rachmei Shomayim

    sane
    sane
    13 years ago

    Unfortunately, by the time people are in their late teens, they have not received solid grounding in reading, writing, math and science, since it is relegated to insignificance by Yeshivos – apparently with the mistaken notion that if a boy is exposed to secular subjects in a meaningful way, he will become an apikorus or mechalel shabbos.

    This deceit is perpetuated despite the abundant proof around us by virtue of thousands of boys that went through the Yeshiva system in the 60’s, 70′ and 80′ s that became talmidei chachomim and well respected in the professions. When the Yeshivos will take their collective heads out of the sand and deal with the facts and reality as they are and not as they pretend them to be, the problem will be ameliorated.

    simchatots
    simchatots
    13 years ago

    That article would make me want to quit my day job. The author placed all the responsibility on the school instead of the parents. Some of the points may have been valid, but he undermined his credibility.

    13 years ago

    What about instituting organized (preferably mandatory) sports/gym with trained instructors. This is the perfect outlet for a fun and cheap supervised social program that is healthy for the mind as well as the body, and will give children something to do when not learning. It is something even chassidishe yeshivos should consider.

    chashuv
    chashuv
    13 years ago

    Rabbi Shonbuch, you are a university educated person, who learned your views in School. WE do NOT respect anything you say or know from school. If we wanted the view of the Psychiatric world, we would buy the textbook like you did. If anything, the value in your views, is to do the exact opposite. There is no reason to believe anything you say, other than that it is your own opinion, or the opinion of your teacher at school. These types of theories hardly ever work in the real world. As frum people, we put NO value in these teachings. Psychiatrists believe they have a G-D given right to be respected and heeded. Anyone who dosnt value you, is obviously self destructive, in your view, or just a Neanderthal. You should know- you dont have that authority. Your views are not scientifically proven, nor supported by torah. Nor are they supported by real world experience. When you write an article next time, clearly state, “This is MY personal view. Heed it at your own risk. I take no responsibility if you follow my advise, and it dosnt work. “

    Butterfly
    Butterfly
    13 years ago

    To #38 I agree wholeheartedly with you. That is the type of education that I had. I had to pull my kid out of yeshiva because he was being tormented by other kids and nobody would do anything about it!! That is where your money goes??? Down the drain??? My kid is now well rounded, well educated, and balanced.

    shosh
    shosh
    13 years ago

    At risk, as I have said many times refers to juvenile delinquency. young people in trouble. I don’t know who white washed criminal behaviour.

    shvigger
    shvigger
    13 years ago

    The last person I’d trust to “fix” up the broken system is a therapist.

    beard18
    beard18
    13 years ago

    In my life experience I have found that if a person feel like they are accomplishing something then they will continue to pursue that goal, and play to their personal strenghths. We need to give our children oppurtunities to find their strengths with in our Jewish halachik society. The most important thing for our school system is to help children enjoy the curriculum which we are offering, the Torah. There is a piece of Torah for everyone, and it is our job to find that area for every child. This is no small task especially b/c we have large classes and a system of teaching. I think we need to find a way for children to see success in school. We need everyone getting a “100” on the test. A child has to be taught that with effort he will succeed. we need to give the child reasons to put in the effort. He needs to believe that he will succeed. I do not, yet, no of a way to do this, but if there are any mechanchim out there who have been in this situation please brainstrom with ideas, and share them.
    I also beleive, that a child has to see school as a place of growth, both in Kodesh and Chol. They have to want to come to school. We need to help them achieve this viewpoint.HashemOzer

    marko
    marko
    13 years ago

    well unfortunately this problem is here to stay, and guilty are the fathers who have top boys ,and still don’t want to know that they can have 1 or 2 or have grandchildren with the same problem, they are selfish , I know a family who was always on the yeshiva side saying well those yeshivas have the right to do what they want, they are not obligated to take in buchrom, until it hit him home I will never forget this,he had a good son in a good yeshiva who went off the derech, you should hear him talk now ,much different, but again now he knows new fathers who have no experience will repeat the mistake, , so the problems keeps on rolling and we are in big hot trouble and I keep on realizing it’s the younger generation did not yet go true with all their children who makes the problem the older one who married off their children will all tell you the same the system in unbearable it’s the young generation who think they have their first or second good buchir and will always be that way by the time they will marry all their kids they will have their opinion all the way in the other direction

    marko
    marko
    13 years ago

    I say everybody who problems with their yeshiva and is now married should take a few minutes and write a letter to the Rosh yeshiva of that yeshiva he had the problem and at the same time somebody to publish without names all the letters so let the world see the pain and anger and at the same time let the Rosh yeshiva not sleep at night knowing how many people have a heavy heart on them

    13 years ago

    Many professionals believe that with extra funds we can hire more specialists to help with our situation. One solution may be to get it out of the heads of most parents that the yungerman has to sit & learn after the wedding and be supported by their parents. Maybe one in a hundred should sit in kollel. The parents should give the money they save to the the yeshivas of their younger kids who are still in school. Look back in history very few kids learned till 18 years. They had to help with parnoso.

    bfromwilli
    bfromwilli
    13 years ago

    being within the framework of the yeshiva system, I am convinced that 80% of at risk teens come from homes where there are significant shalom bayis issues. in some cases where the shalom bayis seems o.k. the children very often get mixed messages from one or both parents, or see alot of hypocricy in yiddishkeit in the home. There is small percentage of kids at risk that fall through the cracks of the yeshiva system in and of itself. Usually this occurs when a child somehow gets emotionally disconnected from the system- and yes it is the mechanchims’ job to look out for these signs and deal with it before its to late !

    my4amos
    my4amos
    13 years ago

    Before you even think of adopting any psychologist’s 12-point solution (isn’t it always some 12-point solution coming from them?), ask yourself: do you know of a single case of any psychologist actually helping anyone? I mean in his professional capacity, not personal advice? And even if you did (I didn’t, I doubt there is such a case!), what is their rate of success? One in 20 years? One in 40? Remunerative employment financed by the most gullible people (unfortunately, gullible people with real problems) is the only endeavor they ever succeeded in.

    transportation_expert
    transportation_expert
    13 years ago

    I went to a yeshiva in brooklyn for the ninth grade, the menahel made my life a living hell, as I was not ur typical yeshivish guy.I had no interest in just being like everyone else bec that’s the way we were told to do things. He would always berate me in public,pull the pns out of my yarmulka, complain that my yarmulka was too small……..all petty things, if not for my ninth grade rebbi,I wouldn’t be frum today. A few weeks ago I was at shul at guess who I met….my ninth grade menahel who now put on a frock on shabbos and stiing next too him was a nice boy about 16 years old have shaved head,spiked hair bobby pins….and the list goes on. Its very cruel of me that I feld so good when I was told this boy is the menahels son…..what goes around comes around. And btw. I am a frm guy today married with a familly and B”H sucessful in business owe and btw I learn every day……but every time I hear that menahels name or see his face I still harbor very ill feelings, and can’t overcome them. Rabbiem listen no 2 kids are alike that’s correct not even ur own children. Don’t try too mold them guide them,them then form their own unique personalities.

    transportation_expert
    transportation_expert
    13 years ago

    I went to a yeshiva in brooklyn for the ninth grade, the menahel made my life a living hell, as I was not ur typical yeshivish guy.I had no interest in just being like everyone else bec that’s the way we were told to do things. He would always berate me in public,pull the pns out of my yarmulka, complain that my yarmulka was too small……..all petty things, if not for my ninth grade rebbi,I wouldn’t be frum today. A few weeks ago I was at shul at guess who I met….my ninth grade menahel who now put on a frock on shabbos and stiing next too him was a nice boy about 16 years old have shaved head,spiked hair bobby pins….and the list goes on. Its very cruel of me that I feld so good when I was told this boy is the menahels son…..what goes around comes around. And btw. I am a frm guy today married with a familly and B”H sucessful in business owe and btw I learn every day……but every time I hear that menahels name or see his face I still harbor very ill feelings, and can’t overcome them. Rabbiem listen no 2 kids are alike that’s correct not even ur own children. Don’t try too mold them guide them,them then form their own unique personalities.

    JackM
    JackM
    13 years ago

    Not for nothing, but wouldn’t having a TEACHING DEGREE automatically improve an instructor’s classroom outcomes? Every single thing that this Rabbi so eloquently put into writing is already being covered in college classrooms around the country. I’m not saying that they have to sit through 4 years of school in an actual classroom; that’s what online classes are for. Clearly, if the majority of these instructors knew as much about HOW to teach as they knew what they were teaching ABOUT, many of these problems wouldn’t be…problems. Seriously now- in 2010 you need to tell these instructors to use POWERPOINT? You need to tell instructors to offer TUTORING? Absolutely shameful.

    RealOMG
    RealOMG
    13 years ago

    This is a honest question, I am not criticizing any Yeshiva, God know I could, but I don’t understand why the schools don’t make a connection with the kollel and have like a “big brother program” one on one tutoring for free.

    Dr_Bert_Miller
    Dr_Bert_Miller
    13 years ago

    I enjoyed Rabbi Schonbuch’s article. However, he presented this formula, “I=QR, where Impact (I) is directly proportional to the Quality of Relationship (QR) you develop with your child.” In order to express direct proportionality, you must show a constant of proportionality. That is, the formula should be shown as I=mQR, where m is the constant of proportionality. Keep up your good work, Rabbi Schonbuch.

    13 years ago

    I read all the comments here and want to share my personal history and you all need to read this.

    The most I learned in my life was 3 years of “the cheder”. We were a group of 6 kids, we learned in the kerestier shtiebel in miami beach from the age of 9-12.

    It went a little like this, a few parents taught for 1 hour 30 min or so and we had a teacher for a few hours in afternoon usualy a bachur from yeshiva gedolah.

    I’m sure people here remember us, let me tell you that what those 3 years did to me even giluy eliyahu hanavi couldent.

    For one, as lubavitcher kids learning in a chasidish shtiebel we learned to connect to different yidden, we learned to respect each and every yid (and non jew)

    Whether it was the kaliver rebbe, the beirach moshe of satmer, rav sholom of bobbov and more.

    The kavana man (is he still alive?) That was saved from the gas chambers at the last minute and promised hashem he would daven with chayus and was shukeling away till 11am.

    Rav shalom of bobbov at tu b’shvat tish telling me to make a bracha “besimcha”

    We watched, we learned, we misbehaved and were swiftly punished.. We learned to respect…

    But more so I learned to love hashem, his torah and my fellow man.

    Each of us 6 are frum to this day and 5 besides me are married bh.

    I share this because hopefully someone would dare to copy this model.

    In everlasting memory of rav raphael grosz zt”l

    schwartzi
    schwartzi
    13 years ago

    i just dont understand one thing. doesnt it say in the kesuba that the husband has the obligation to support his wife? (or is it the other way around?) and if he does have to support her, then how do the roshei yeshivas(who are against boys going to work,or college) feel and are able to be mesader kiddushin,or lain the kesuba at the chupa? isnt this a contradiction? i am just a working yungerman,so i dont get it. can someone please explain this to me?

    Balaboos
    Balaboos
    13 years ago

    Now that everyone vented…from my perpective, this is a multifaceted concern. Schools lack a lot, granted. However, to lay the blame on educators who walk into a classroom with hyperactive children, for whatever the reasons may be, is just unfair. We do our best – and then some – to teach these kids whatever they’re capable of absorbing.

    When we identify a “problem child” and bring this to the attention of the administration, we are often told to mind our own business. I have taught in different schools over the years and this seems, unfortunately, to be the general attitude of supervisory staff.

    There is NO QUICK FIX to this problem. Please bear in mind (this was mentioned a few times already) as far back as one can remember, stumbling blocks existed. Back then, these kids were NOT called “at riskers”, they were just “bad kids”. Nevetheless, they all grew up and were successful in many areas of business, general life & raised families. Some of them are even BIG supporters of today’s mosdos.

    BOTTOM LINE: It starts at home, not in school. Parents often take a “whatever” approach out of frustration. It boils down to parenting skills. Don’t hesitate to reach for direction.

    monishmo
    monishmo
    13 years ago

    this is to number 4
    I disagree with the fact its only money that can make a difference in the rabbaim. One outburst can destroy a child forever. building a childs self esteem can make a hugh difference in a child forever. money cant prevent that from happening. alot of rabbaim shouldnt be sitting on their job. not everyone is meant to know all the learning that yeshivas today require them to know and they shouldnt be put down for it. their kishronas should be brought out and if the yeshivas wouldn’t be so busy in building “their yeshivas name” and just work on building their kids, alot of problems would be prevented. All “those” rabbiam know what im saying when it comes to their own children