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Jerusalem - Yeshiva Students: Dove Coming to Torah Lessons 'A Sign from God'

Published on: February 17, 2011 09:40 AM
By:  Ynet
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FileJerusalem - “It’s a real wonder,” one of the students at the haredi Kamenitz Yeshiva says about his new classmate – a white dove. “This holy bird just listens to full lessons.”

Several weeks ago, during a Torah lesson in the Jerusalem yeshiva, a white dove entered the house of study, sat on the window sill and flew out at the end of the lesson.

The following days, the bird would arrive at the yeshiva and stand in the corner for the entire lesson – prompting the excited yeshiva students to view it as a sign from God.

They created a “studying circle” around the bird and began reading Talmud verses and begging forgiveness from the soul which they believed “wandered” into the dove. Surprisingly, these actions did not help send the mysterious bird away.

Rumors about the righteous bird became the talk of the day in Jerusalem, and students watching the dove with binoculars discovered that it would visit the rooftop of the nearby Vizhnitz yeshiva as well.

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The yeshiva students tried to test the bird once again and sealed all the entrances to the yeshiva, but it “miraculously” managed to get in and attend its regular class on time.

“A few days ago,” haredi newspaper Bakehila reported, “one of the yeshiva students, who could not bear the great waste of time that could be spent on studying Torah, went over and kindly took (the bird) to his home, where he fed it.”

The yeshiva student even took the dove to a slaughterer, but it turned out that the magnificent bird does not meet the rules of kashrut and the yeshiva is now contemplating what to do with it.



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Read Comments (39)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:44 AM GB_Jew Says:

They get what is clearly siman barur min hashamayim and they want to EAT it???

2

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Maybe he just wants a piece of challah.

3

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Scatter gun!

4

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:52 AM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:

Maybe its a sign that the learning taking place there is "for the birds?" Maybe the bachurim should strengthen their hasmada and not concern themselves with narishkeit like winged creatures, etc.

5

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:52 AM Anonymous Says:

If you miss Shiur you will come back as a dove every day!

6

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:52 AM Anonymous Says:

The seforim say that doves are gilgulim from tzaddikim - the old Shidlovtzer Rebbe zya (d. 1865) had lots of doves in his chatzar - the present Shidlovtzer Rebbe told me that he has the same "problem" in his beis medrash in Yerushalayim

7

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:52 AM Bezalel Says:

How can a dove not be kosher?

8

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:59 AM Rachel W. Says:

Set her free and let her do as she pleases.

9

 Feb 17, 2011 at 10:03 AM Anonymous Says:

When I went to Salanter Yeshiva in the Bronx on Webster Avenue in the 1950s, we had many heilege pigeons constantly flying into the classrooms but somehow the only response was to call an exterminator and we did not consider this to be a neis or siman m'shamayim. What has changed in 50 years???

10

 Feb 17, 2011 at 10:35 AM Babishka Says:

I have doves coming on to my back porch all the time (not right now, it is winter and they are migratory species). They want birdseed. In my state you can get a license to hunt and trap them.

11

 Feb 17, 2011 at 10:41 AM AP Says:

The satan will do anything to stop bochurim from learning

12

 Feb 17, 2011 at 11:01 AM sasregener Says:

Reply to #1  
GB_Jew Says:

They get what is clearly siman barur min hashamayim and they want to EAT it???

schechting the animal would be a tikun for the neshama. one of bthe reasons we eat fish on shabbos is because nishmastzadikim come back as fish and by making a brocho on the fish and eating it is a tikun haneshomo

13

 Feb 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM Lodzker Says:

Its well known that the gemora states that eating the flesh of an animal is a tikun for it, and if its a gilgul of a person its a mercy to eat it, because it can be used for the mitzvas of brachos and eventuall to help the person have koichus to do other mitzvos.

before people go jumping on the shechita part, read your gemora first. it is a tzoros for a neshoma to be trapped in an animal.

14

 Feb 17, 2011 at 12:39 PM Chaim_Ben-Yehuda Says:

Isn't a white dove also a sign of the shechina?

15

 Feb 17, 2011 at 12:51 PM mo613 Says:

its probably mossad agent checking to see how many students there really are there.to see if the amount corresponds with what they get subsides for ..get a cat never fails and go back to your learning

16

 Feb 17, 2011 at 12:59 PM monseyyid Says:

Viznitz monsey has tens of sparrows flying around the bhmd every day. They're part of the decor. This dove could be the Satan in disguise willing to disturb the learning

17

 Feb 17, 2011 at 01:27 PM cowfy Says:

Reply to #13  
Lodzker Says:

Its well known that the gemora states that eating the flesh of an animal is a tikun for it, and if its a gilgul of a person its a mercy to eat it, because it can be used for the mitzvas of brachos and eventuall to help the person have koichus to do other mitzvos.

before people go jumping on the shechita part, read your gemora first. it is a tzoros for a neshoma to be trapped in an animal.

hold on one moment.where in shas does it state gilgul neshomos? please enlighten me.

18

 Feb 17, 2011 at 01:46 PM zeke Says:

to # 17

שבת דף קנא.ב
תניא, רבי אלעזר הקפר אומר: לעולם יבקש אדם רחמים על מדה זו, שאם הוא לא בא ־ בא בנו, ואם בנו לא בא ־ בן בנו בא, שנאמר (דברים טו) כי בגלל הדבר הזה, תנא דבי רבי ישמעאל: גלגל הוא שחוזר בעולם

19

 Feb 17, 2011 at 02:38 PM DavidMoshe Says:

"They created a “studying circle” around the bird and began reading Talmud verses and begging forgiveness from the soul which they believed “wandered” into the dove."

Wow. It doesn't take much to push these guys into avoda zara, does it?

20

 Feb 17, 2011 at 02:38 PM David Says:

Reply to #16  
monseyyid Says:

Viznitz monsey has tens of sparrows flying around the bhmd every day. They're part of the decor. This dove could be the Satan in disguise willing to disturb the learning

Or it could be a bird.... you never know.

21

 Feb 17, 2011 at 02:40 PM David Says:

Reply to #12  
sasregener Says:

schechting the animal would be a tikun for the neshama. one of bthe reasons we eat fish on shabbos is because nishmastzadikim come back as fish and by making a brocho on the fish and eating it is a tikun haneshomo

That is, by far, the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. You really think animals like to be schechted? It's one thing to say that we'll eat meat; but turning the process into a circus and pretending that the animals should show us gratitude for this singular favor is too stupid even for a yeshiva student to believe.

22

 Feb 17, 2011 at 03:16 PM Anonymous Says:

If the bird sits in on the classes they should charge tuition.

23

 Feb 17, 2011 at 03:16 PM Yanky Says:

Why does everyone just accept the idea of gilgul neshomos as if it's miSinai? Why didn't Rambam include it in his 13 Articles of Faith if it's supposedly such a basic doctrine of the Torah? Saadia Gaon called reincarnation absolute kefira. You can't find a clear mention of gilgulim in Tanach or the Gemara (I'm talking about an unambiguous statement, not a vague or allegorical sentence that can be "interpreted" a certain way). Show me something from the Rishonim that backs up this belief in gilgulim. It seems to me the basic belief of our Rishonim was that a person lives his life and is judged for his actions and his neshama is rewarded and/or punished. Period. What do you think Rashi or the Rambam would think about the idea of souls continually coming back to life in various forms -- not even necessarily human forms? If I wanted to believe in reincarnation I'd go to India and find a guru.

24

 Feb 17, 2011 at 03:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Yanky Says:

Why does everyone just accept the idea of gilgul neshomos as if it's miSinai? Why didn't Rambam include it in his 13 Articles of Faith if it's supposedly such a basic doctrine of the Torah? Saadia Gaon called reincarnation absolute kefira. You can't find a clear mention of gilgulim in Tanach or the Gemara (I'm talking about an unambiguous statement, not a vague or allegorical sentence that can be "interpreted" a certain way). Show me something from the Rishonim that backs up this belief in gilgulim. It seems to me the basic belief of our Rishonim was that a person lives his life and is judged for his actions and his neshama is rewarded and/or punished. Period. What do you think Rashi or the Rambam would think about the idea of souls continually coming back to life in various forms -- not even necessarily human forms? If I wanted to believe in reincarnation I'd go to India and find a guru.

Its in the Zohar HaKadosh - mu rabbeim taught me that anyone bizman hazeh who denies the validity of the Zohar is an apikoros

25

 Feb 17, 2011 at 04:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

Its in the Zohar HaKadosh - mu rabbeim taught me that anyone bizman hazeh who denies the validity of the Zohar is an apikoros

Well, that would mean that Saadia Gaon was an apikorus, G-d forbid, as well as Sforno, the Rosh, and other sages who explicitly said the belief in gilgulim is kefira. As for what your rebbeim taught you, I'm sure they heard it from their rebbeim who heard it from theirs, etc. That doesn't mean it's emes. It wasn't too long ago, by the way, that many leading rebbeim were very reluctant to give approbation to Kabbalistic teachings, from the Zohar or from other sources. But as time went on and the popularity of some of those teachings spread, especially in the chassidishe world, it became harder to come right out and say "we don't hold from the Zohar." But I repeat what I said in my earlier post -- if gilgulim and reincarnation is such a central tenet of Yiddishkeit, why wasn't it mentioned even once by Moshe Rabbeinu, by the Talmudic sages (I'd love to see you or anyone else bring a pasuk in support of gilgulim from Onkelos or Hillel or Raban Gamliel or Rabbi Chanina ben Dosa or any of those giants), by Rambam, by Rashi, etc. Was G-d hiding something so vital and important from so many tzadikkim over so many centuries?!

26

 Feb 17, 2011 at 05:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

Well, that would mean that Saadia Gaon was an apikorus, G-d forbid, as well as Sforno, the Rosh, and other sages who explicitly said the belief in gilgulim is kefira. As for what your rebbeim taught you, I'm sure they heard it from their rebbeim who heard it from theirs, etc. That doesn't mean it's emes. It wasn't too long ago, by the way, that many leading rebbeim were very reluctant to give approbation to Kabbalistic teachings, from the Zohar or from other sources. But as time went on and the popularity of some of those teachings spread, especially in the chassidishe world, it became harder to come right out and say "we don't hold from the Zohar." But I repeat what I said in my earlier post -- if gilgulim and reincarnation is such a central tenet of Yiddishkeit, why wasn't it mentioned even once by Moshe Rabbeinu, by the Talmudic sages (I'd love to see you or anyone else bring a pasuk in support of gilgulim from Onkelos or Hillel or Raban Gamliel or Rabbi Chanina ben Dosa or any of those giants), by Rambam, by Rashi, etc. Was G-d hiding something so vital and important from so many tzadikkim over so many centuries?!

The Zohar IS by the Talmudic Sages.

27

 Feb 17, 2011 at 07:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

Well, that would mean that Saadia Gaon was an apikorus, G-d forbid, as well as Sforno, the Rosh, and other sages who explicitly said the belief in gilgulim is kefira. As for what your rebbeim taught you, I'm sure they heard it from their rebbeim who heard it from theirs, etc. That doesn't mean it's emes. It wasn't too long ago, by the way, that many leading rebbeim were very reluctant to give approbation to Kabbalistic teachings, from the Zohar or from other sources. But as time went on and the popularity of some of those teachings spread, especially in the chassidishe world, it became harder to come right out and say "we don't hold from the Zohar." But I repeat what I said in my earlier post -- if gilgulim and reincarnation is such a central tenet of Yiddishkeit, why wasn't it mentioned even once by Moshe Rabbeinu, by the Talmudic sages (I'd love to see you or anyone else bring a pasuk in support of gilgulim from Onkelos or Hillel or Raban Gamliel or Rabbi Chanina ben Dosa or any of those giants), by Rambam, by Rashi, etc. Was G-d hiding something so vital and important from so many tzadikkim over so many centuries?!

Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok said that the Rav Saadia Gaon zya only wrote against gilgul neshamos because he lived in a Muslim country and it was dangerous to write something so radically against Islamic doctrine.

It is well known that the Baal Shem Tov zya was a gilgul of Rav Saadia Gaon zya to make a tikkun for the fact that he taught against gilgul neshamos - even though he had to because of pikuach nefesh

28

 Feb 17, 2011 at 07:12 PM kalman1 Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

Well, that would mean that Saadia Gaon was an apikorus, G-d forbid, as well as Sforno, the Rosh, and other sages who explicitly said the belief in gilgulim is kefira. As for what your rebbeim taught you, I'm sure they heard it from their rebbeim who heard it from theirs, etc. That doesn't mean it's emes. It wasn't too long ago, by the way, that many leading rebbeim were very reluctant to give approbation to Kabbalistic teachings, from the Zohar or from other sources. But as time went on and the popularity of some of those teachings spread, especially in the chassidishe world, it became harder to come right out and say "we don't hold from the Zohar." But I repeat what I said in my earlier post -- if gilgulim and reincarnation is such a central tenet of Yiddishkeit, why wasn't it mentioned even once by Moshe Rabbeinu, by the Talmudic sages (I'd love to see you or anyone else bring a pasuk in support of gilgulim from Onkelos or Hillel or Raban Gamliel or Rabbi Chanina ben Dosa or any of those giants), by Rambam, by Rashi, etc. Was G-d hiding something so vital and important from so many tzadikkim over so many centuries?!

You ask "If gilgulim and reincarnation is such a central tenet of Yiddishkeit, why wasn't it mentioned even once by Moshe Rabbeinu, by the Talmudic sages ... etc. That is for the same reason any of these otherworldly stuff are not mentioned directly. It is not a central tenet to understand how these things work. For the same reason the Torah does not describe how Gan Eden or Gehennom is like. Yes, there are great machklokisim about gilgulim but their non-mention in preemptively halachick and moreh literature does not prove it does not exist.

29

 Feb 17, 2011 at 07:15 PM joshwaxman Says:

Reply to #18  
zeke Says:

to # 17

שבת דף קנא.ב
תניא, רבי אלעזר הקפר אומר: לעולם יבקש אדם רחמים על מדה זו, שאם הוא לא בא ־ בא בנו, ואם בנו לא בא ־ בן בנו בא, שנאמר (דברים טו) כי בגלל הדבר הזה, תנא דבי רבי ישמעאל: גלגל הוא שחוזר בעולם

no, that's not what that gemara means!

"It was taught, R. Eleazar ha-Kappar said: Let one always pray to be spared this fate [poverty], for if he does not descend [to poverty] his son will, and if not his son, his grandson, for it is said, because that for [bi-gelal] this thing, [etc.].20 The School of R. Ishmael taught: It is a wheel [galal] that revolves in the world.21"

You've never heard of the wheel of fortune?

kol tuv,
josh

30

 Feb 17, 2011 at 07:17 PM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

Well, that would mean that Saadia Gaon was an apikorus, G-d forbid, as well as Sforno, the Rosh, and other sages who explicitly said the belief in gilgulim is kefira. As for what your rebbeim taught you, I'm sure they heard it from their rebbeim who heard it from theirs, etc. That doesn't mean it's emes. It wasn't too long ago, by the way, that many leading rebbeim were very reluctant to give approbation to Kabbalistic teachings, from the Zohar or from other sources. But as time went on and the popularity of some of those teachings spread, especially in the chassidishe world, it became harder to come right out and say "we don't hold from the Zohar." But I repeat what I said in my earlier post -- if gilgulim and reincarnation is such a central tenet of Yiddishkeit, why wasn't it mentioned even once by Moshe Rabbeinu, by the Talmudic sages (I'd love to see you or anyone else bring a pasuk in support of gilgulim from Onkelos or Hillel or Raban Gamliel or Rabbi Chanina ben Dosa or any of those giants), by Rambam, by Rashi, etc. Was G-d hiding something so vital and important from so many tzadikkim over so many centuries?!

Zohar was put together by RaShB"Y, zya.

31

 Feb 17, 2011 at 08:08 PM independent_mind Says:

It astounds me that ppl have such blatant apikorsus.
As someone mentioned here, NONE of the mystical parts, which might be difficult for us to comprehend, are mentioned openly in the torah i.e gan eden, gehinnom, etc.
One of the 13 principles is that we believe that what our neviim said is true, the neviim passed on the kabbalistic part of torah which moshe rebbenu had learnt from Hashem and this eventualy reached RaShBI who put it together into the holy zohar.
Chassidic teachings r holy and true, u may choose not to follow them but denying them is apikorsus, saying that things were passed on and today no one dares speak out is foolishness. Open the holy tanya, kedushes leivi, divrei yecheskel etc etc,
Gilgul Neshamos is an ABC in yiddishkeit and is found in kabbala all over. Woe to the one mistreating or twisting those holy words!
May Hashem grant all the readers here Chochma Bina and Daas not to comment foolishly or ch"v with apikorsus.
May no more tikkunim be needed and Moshiach should reveal to us the answers to lifes riddles very soon in our day, amen

32

 Feb 17, 2011 at 08:08 PM ANONYMOUS Says:

The bird wants Mechila, there have been many stories like this one.

33

 Feb 17, 2011 at 08:23 PM Yanky Says:

Reply to #31  
independent_mind Says:

It astounds me that ppl have such blatant apikorsus.
As someone mentioned here, NONE of the mystical parts, which might be difficult for us to comprehend, are mentioned openly in the torah i.e gan eden, gehinnom, etc.
One of the 13 principles is that we believe that what our neviim said is true, the neviim passed on the kabbalistic part of torah which moshe rebbenu had learnt from Hashem and this eventualy reached RaShBI who put it together into the holy zohar.
Chassidic teachings r holy and true, u may choose not to follow them but denying them is apikorsus, saying that things were passed on and today no one dares speak out is foolishness. Open the holy tanya, kedushes leivi, divrei yecheskel etc etc,
Gilgul Neshamos is an ABC in yiddishkeit and is found in kabbala all over. Woe to the one mistreating or twisting those holy words!
May Hashem grant all the readers here Chochma Bina and Daas not to comment foolishly or ch"v with apikorsus.
May no more tikkunim be needed and Moshiach should reveal to us the answers to lifes riddles very soon in our day, amen

There is no evidence in any of the writings and commentaries of the Talmudic Sages, the Rishonim, etc. that they knew of any kabbalah passed down from Moshe rabbeinu. The fact that someone who points this out is accused of apikorsis is a sad commentary on what we've become.

34

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:10 PM independent_mind Says:

Reply to #33  
Yanky Says:

There is no evidence in any of the writings and commentaries of the Talmudic Sages, the Rishonim, etc. that they knew of any kabbalah passed down from Moshe rabbeinu. The fact that someone who points this out is accused of apikorsis is a sad commentary on what we've become.

That's because mishna and gemora r of a different "segment" of torah.
We have pshat, drash, remez, sod....

35

 Feb 17, 2011 at 09:49 PM Lawyer Says:

About 60 years ago, there was a shortage of food, especially of meat, in EY. My father used to raise pigeons on the roof of his parents' house for meat. Before my uncle's Bar Mitzvah, they raised over 200 pigeons, which, after the shochet came around and did hid job, were used to make the Bar Mitzvah seudah.

36

 Feb 18, 2011 at 01:17 AM Anonymous Says:

One word sums it up: Narishkeit.

37

 Feb 18, 2011 at 09:28 AM Anominous Says:

Reply to #23  
Yanky Says:

Why does everyone just accept the idea of gilgul neshomos as if it's miSinai? Why didn't Rambam include it in his 13 Articles of Faith if it's supposedly such a basic doctrine of the Torah? Saadia Gaon called reincarnation absolute kefira. You can't find a clear mention of gilgulim in Tanach or the Gemara (I'm talking about an unambiguous statement, not a vague or allegorical sentence that can be "interpreted" a certain way). Show me something from the Rishonim that backs up this belief in gilgulim. It seems to me the basic belief of our Rishonim was that a person lives his life and is judged for his actions and his neshama is rewarded and/or punished. Period. What do you think Rashi or the Rambam would think about the idea of souls continually coming back to life in various forms -- not even necessarily human forms? If I wanted to believe in reincarnation I'd go to India and find a guru.

I have read in seforim that the neshama of Nadav Veavihu went into Pinchas. The neshama of Kain into Korach and Yisro, and Chevel into Moshe. I have to check up which seforim...

38

 Feb 20, 2011 at 02:00 AM schwartzi Says:

Reply to #12  
sasregener Says:

schechting the animal would be a tikun for the neshama. one of bthe reasons we eat fish on shabbos is because nishmastzadikim come back as fish and by making a brocho on the fish and eating it is a tikun haneshomo

sasregener, it would be better if the talking in shul would stop,( at least a little)

39

 Feb 20, 2011 at 12:25 PM oiber-chacham Says:

articles like this,make a mockery of YIDISHKEIT,why do you find it neccesary to quote every ignorant mentaly deranged charachter?

40

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