Bnei Brak, Israel – The roads in Bnei Brak are full of stricly Orthodox women drivers, you cannot say that the personal freedom in driving a car comes without a price. Even today, when a stricly Orthodox woman drives, it is seen as an act of rebellion, excessive independence, a “complicated issue of Jewish law”.
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This is not an issue of Jewish law, it’s an issue of feminism and chauvinism. It’s the issue of what a stricly Orthodox woman is permitted or forbidden to do, without invading territories that someone, somewhere has defined as masculine or not suitable to the ideal of the stricly Orthodox woman.
After all, what is more modest from the point of view of Jewish law: a woman driving by herself, or a woman taking crowded public transportation with men?
Outside the strictly Orthodox world no one tries to camouflage their opinions on women drivers by talking about upright behavior. They just let themselves say “go back to the kitchen!” and other such pearls. But at least they are upfront. [ynet]
I don’t know if you were joking or being sarcastic or what that when you said that he doesnt want women to drive as he’s afraid they will run away from their husbands because this is totally wrong I’m in touch with this Rav who is in touch with him.
The reason so many of us take issue with the ridiculous things that can sometimes come from E.Y. is simple. These issurim effect us because you people (dear brothers and sisters)of E.Y. come to chutz Laretz to collect our money. You have imposed so many restrictions on yourselves that you can no longer function.
Everyone knows ….. spend a half hour in any shul in Yerushaleim every 2 minutes kids, adults elderly will stop you for money.
Don’t you think that if you were allowed to do just 2 or 3 of the so many issurim that you keep you could have a better life?
Why do you feel that we should support you when you need to marry off your daughter?
What are you teaching your children? That it is better to do nothing with your life and collect money all day, than to drive a car?
Do you think that your great grandparents did the same? Back in Poland Russia, ETC. many, many Jews WORKED! They were milkmen or tailors or EVEN doctors.
Us “goyim” in chutz Laretz do all the same things that you do, we daven every day (3 times) we learn, we are just as frum as you.
When will you rely on yourselves for improvement, instead of us?!?!?
The reason Rav Vozner doesnt vant vimen to drive is hes afraaid they vill run away from their husbands
I forgot to say also about that shailos can be paskened differently in E.Y. as someone said that they heard this from Harav Dovid Cohen beides what I said before that personally I have been saying this for a while but of course because E.Y. is E.Y. has Kedusha also it’s on a highter level.
anonymous May 3, 2007 6:00 PM Who says it’s O.K. for women to go to college?
Also the people that are saying it doesn’t make sence why are you saying things like that about the Gedolim be careful with your words Hashem Yerachem. Look what the Chofetz Chaim says about anyone who talks against the Gedolim. We might not understand why they are saying what they are saying but they know better then us. They are messangers from Hashem. About Kol Kvoda Bas Melech Pnima if they don’t drive they won’t go out as much so the less they go out the better. So even if they walk on the streets they will be going less if they don’t drive. I don’t understand how someone can compare to eating a carrot & not driving. The Gedolim didn’t tell us not to eat a carrot.
Yes, very true shailos can be paskened differently in E.Y. as someone said that they heard this from Harav Dovid Cohen & personally I have been saying this for a while but of course because E.Y. is E.Y. has Kedusha. Bene Brak hardly anyone drives & the ones that do aren’t usually the very frum ones.
Gevalt! Gevalt! Gevalt! Gevalt!
Men, thanks for your support. Most of you anyway. One thing is certain. What is considered not tznius in EY by those gedolim may not be so for the gedolim in the US. Don’t get crazy now, but many shailos can be paskened differently there. I heard this from our posek Harav Dovid Cohen, shlita.
Anonymous says respect the Chumros of other people. I cannot disagree with this principle. But what is a Chumro and what is Shtus. A Chumra is going Lifnim Meshuras Din, by taking an issur and building a fence around it. What issur is involved in women driving cars, so that it can be going Lifnim Meshuras Hadin.
Not everything one does is a Chumra. If I decide never to eat carrots, it is not a Chumra, it is Shtus. A Chumra must be tied to an Issur. It can’t be just made up. If it is, it is an Issur of LO SOSIFU. You just can’t make up Chumros that are not related to an Issur
I was looking at the comments and trying to see if I could discern a reason why women should not drive. The reasons given come down to three things:
1) They should not look at men drivers while driving
2) Men should not look at them.
3) Kol Kvoda Bas Melech Pnima.
The first two reasons make no sense since women have more of a chance of looking at more men while walking than while driving since drivers concentrate on the road and any men who pass by are a blur, given the speed at which cars operate. The same is true of men looking at women. Men can get a much better look at women while walking than while driving. So, these reasons make no sense at all.
As for Kol Kvoda Bas Melech Pnima, this would be a good reason if women did not walk on the street. Since they walk on the street, saying that they shouldn’t drive because of Kol Kvoda Bas Melech Pnima is senseless. If the principle of Kol Kvoda Bas Melech Pnima is to be applied, women should not walk on the streets. Since they walk on the streets, they should also be allowed to drive.
Here is the U.S., Satmar and related Chassidim do not allow women to drive. All of Chassidim and non-Chassidim allow women to drive.
Honestly, why can’t people just accept this as the words of the Gedolim in Eretz Yisroel. No one is asking you to give up your lisence. This is not talking about America. Its a higher level of sensitivity that I may not have but at least respect the chumros of other people instead of feeling threatened by them.
Women should also not be allowed to drive baby carriages on the street.
It’s not tznius, they are driving, causing men to look at them, they are being koiveish the sidewalk and street, etc., etc.
They should hire men to drive their baby carriages.
Anon May 3, 2007 6:00 PM “So it is ok for a women to go to college which is masculine and then to go to work to support her husband which is also masculine”
Those woman that don’t drive also don’t go to college and they usually don’t work in “masculine” jobs.
It’s true that Rav Wosner opposes to women driving we all respect his opinion but there are other opinions to. Look in Oz Nidberu volume 13 Teshuva 80 authored by Rav Zilber who is a member of the Moetezes Gedolei Hatora he is opposed to women walking the streets rather they should drive cars & whatever it takes 3 hours by foot or bus takes a fraction with a car.
My wife has been driving for many years I always question the opposers to explain their opinion the only answer I got is. Women that drive by themselves can go to unethical places. My argument is that my wife never went with the car to unethical places the few times she went I drove her.
So it is ok for a women to go to college which is masculine and then to go to work to support her husband which is also masculine but yet she can not drive to work because its masculine. You people need your heads examined.if you need more chumoros to hold of just go to the arab countrys and they can teach them to you very well.and they will also explain the punishment women get that violate the rules.
I never understood this whole thing either. No one here yet has really given a decent explanation. Also, while you’re trying to explain this, please explain why also “es past nisht” for anyone “rebbish” to drive?
We’re living in a very mixed up world. True that women shouldn’t be weorking & they should be home kol kvudah bas melech penima but also they at least in E.Y. shouldn’t be driving I don’t know about chutz laoretz but that I do know about E.Y.
What do you think people in E.Y. & other places do that mostly don’t have cars? I’ll tell you they go shopping without a car public transportation. I don’t understand how you can talk such loshon hora about the Gedolay Yisroel. We aren’t the ones that are saying it this is what the Gedolim are saying so just be careful how you are talking about them & look in the Chofetz Chaim what he says when someone talks about the Gedolim.
True it’s also kol kvudah bas melech penima but it’s also because that they sholdn’t be looked at. Why can’t people be nice to each others I just don’t understand? Please explain I don’t get it. We’re all brothers & sisters this is not the way to talk to each other. This hurt Ha-shem very much.
as per the last comment
i believe the issue of tznius arises due to the aggressiveness needed do drive today in a society that does not respect the space and right of passage on the road
You are all nuts – it is alright for a woman to work to support their husbands who learn but not to drive a car. All of you are a bunch of hippocrates.
It shows that your minds are so full of shtus that all you think abiut is women, and looking at them.
Get your heads straight!
OK, 3:35….but someone still needs to explain….why is driving masculine?
SAUDI ARABIA.
The tznius issue of driving has nothing to do with looking or being looked at. It is an extension of “kol kvudah bas melech penima”, you have to be sensitive to the idea to have an appreciation of it. Basically driving is a masculine trait of “kibush” conquering the world with our actions. For a woman to do a masculine thing can be considered not tznius from the root tznua meaning concealed. Thus a woman on a bus even if she is with men is not doing any “masculine” action and it is more tznius i.e. feminine than driving a car by herself.
FOLKS, THERE REAL REASON WOMAN ARE PROHIBITED FROM DRIVING IS BECAUSE THEY ARE BAD DRIVERS (AND ARE ILLEGALLY CHATTING ON THE CELL PHONE.)
Who didn’t know that women are the worst drivers!?
Gevalt!
Mr. 2:49 –
If you are looking at other drivers while driving your car, please do let us know where you live and drive, so that the rest of may stay safely indoors!
No one should be looking at other drivers while driving, its simply unsafe!. Look at other cars, and the road, and traffic lights!
It’s more likely for a woman to be oogled while walking down a street, than while sitting in a car.
Oy!
I think the reason that it’s not Tzinius is because when you drive alot of times you look at the driver of the other cars – it is part of driving, (I don’t have to explain this – its’ obvious to all drivers). Therefor she is causing other men to look at her. When walking down the street and dressed tzinusly she is not causing any men to look at her. Also women who are really modest don’t travel on buses that are crowded (or try to avoid them as much as possible
You people are all nuts.
These same people who believe in this rubbish are the ones meeting the crazy man from iran etc.
Is the mechanical device that runs a car (“kli gever”) any more masculine then the motor of a bus (not a “kli gever” apparantly)??
This is craziness. This goes along the same lines as putting an OU or a Badatz symbol in a sweater or skirt!!
Is this a way to try an encourage a generation which is poshut going down the drain?
the Gedolim of today should be out there making announcements and proclamations that ENCOURAGE yidden to do more to educate and keep kids from going “off”!!!
Not coming out with CRAZY piskei din of women not driving cars and hechserim tags on clothing!!
This nonesense and madness has got to stop!!!
OK.. a Kli Gever? You’ve got to be kidding.
Does this issur also extend to a woman hanging a picture frame in her home, when her husband is out at the Beis Medrish or work?
A hammer would be much more of a Kli Gever than a car.
Really, think before you type.
so, if a person doesnt get to choose the gender of who will assist them, what happens if a femal comes to help a frum man…will he refuse?
Its best if women drive..they then dont have to disturb their husbands from learning to run sill errands.
Having said all this, it’s easier on a woman when she doesn’t drive. That way her husband can run around and do all the shopping…and meet strange women in the stores and on the streets.
reuven
jackov
you stated that there are women police and paramedics available.
do you think a person gets to request the gender of the police officer or emt the comes to help them?
what country do you believe this is happening in?
rav wosner said in a droshe years back that a frum lady should not drive in the zicus of that she will have good and fine kids he did not say a reson
Ok, so now its Rav Vozner & Rav Bransdorfer. Why did they say its kli gever?
Who said it’s not tznius for women to ride the subway? I know that you are making fun & being sarcastic but Gedloim have said about women not driving but who said about the subway? There are things sometimes we don’t understand.
It’s not only Rav Vozner but also Rav Bransdorfer. It’s a kli gever. I don’t know about chutz laoretz but here in E.Y. it’s mumush an isser.
its not tznius for women to ride the subway…..
just lock them in….
I am almost sure these were not reasons Rav Vozner gave.
1 Men looking at women on the street is not a reason to prohibit driving– this is a reason for not allowing a woman to leave the house unless she is acompanied by her husband.
2 As far as accidents go, there are plenty of female cops and paramedics who can assist women in case of an accident. Hence, its not a reason to prohibit them from driving.
So far, I see no compelling reasons. Please respond if you know any.
Yes, driving alone in a car with her children, is much less Tzniusdik than traveling on a crowded bus or train, with men and women cramnmed up against each other.
It also seems safer to have a strange man, from a car service, pick a woman and drive alone.
Who thinks of this stuff anyway?
I think that these are the reasons or at least some of them. She’s on the streets & so men look at her. If she gets stuck c’v who will help her a man & I’m sure there are many more.
OK, I understand that Rav Vozner said its not tznius for women to drive. However, I still fail to see the logic and reasoning of WHY its not tznius?
Can anyone provide me with the reasoning for it?
So Shlomah are you in favor of them driving or not? Can’t tell
B”H yiddishkeit bessertzach between this & clothing with hechsheirim dus vet zicher shneller brengin moshiach
with all due respect about teznues, in my opinion its more modest for them to drive their own cars, then to use public transpiration with men.
I agree with #1 . Ynet is an anti-semitic rag that will twist anything it gets its hands on to attack Orthodoxy.
Rav Vozner says that it’s not tznius for a women to drive. It took me a long time to understand this. There are I think more Rabbonim who say this here in E.Y. but I’m not sure.
I am honestly not sure whats wrong with allowing orthodox women to drive. Could someone please enlighten me. I am sure they are just as capable of driving as men. Are there any issues regarding modesty?
i didn’t expect anything different from Y-net, as you could see in this clear bias article of there.
Thanks Shlomah’l for bringing it to light