Jerusalem – Hundreds of thousands of students begin a new school year today. Some will learn basic Judaism and Torah along with general studies. Some will study Torah in the mornings and general studies in the afternoons, and some will learn Torah exclusively. While the minimal degree of Jewish content in the more secular schools saddens me, I am even more troubled by the third category described above. The haredi world in which I live does not educate children in accordance with Jewish tradition.
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Haredi schools not following Jewish tradition!? Aren’t they the ones who do uphold tradition? Haven’t the more modern movements veered from the path?
The answer is simply that any movement which teaches its children only Torah is a modern aberration.
Traditional Torah sources teach in the clearest of terms that learning a trade to support one’s family with dignity – alongside Torah study and living a Torah-observant lifestyle – is the highest of ideals. For example, in the Jerusalem Talmud, Peiah, Chapter 1 interprets the Torah’s instruction to “choose life” as a command to have a trade. The Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin, 29a teaches that “a father must teach his son a trade. Anyone who does not teach his son a trade is as if he taught his son robbery.” The Midrash on Ecclesiastes Chapter 9 instructs: “Acquire for yourself a trade together with Torah.” The Babylonian Talmud, Brachot 8a goes as far as saying that “a person who earns a living from his own handiwork is greater than one who fears heaven.” Finally, Wisdom of our Fathers Chapter 2 states emphatically that “any Torah not accompanied by work will end up being nullified, and will lead to sin.”
A glance through the Mishna and Talmud reveals that along with being great Torah sages, the leaders of their generations earned a living as doctors, tailors, launderers, plowers, carpenters, land measurers, shoe makers and repairmen, wood choppers, beer makers, bakers, smiths, trap makers, engravers, skin tanners, mill workers, scribes, pit diggers, bundle and beam transporters, wool merchants and weavers.
All the above sources no doubt served as the basis for the teaching from Maimonides, himself a world-class Torah scholar and physician (Laws of Torah Study 3:10-11): “Any person who makes the decision to study Torah without a livelihood and to sustain himself from charity – such a person desecrates God, disgraces Torah, extinguishes the light of religion, causes bad for himself, and removes himself from the World to Come… and our sages also commanded that a person should not earn a living from Torah… It is a high level for a person to earn a living from his own toil and a trait of the saintly. Through this, a person earns all the honor and good in this world and the next.”
This approach continued until the past few hundred years. For example, the 15th century Orchot Tzadikim (309), teaches that “A person must find middle ground with two responsibilities and set aside hours for Torah study and for work in this world, and must strengthen himself to do both… neither should take away from the other.” The famed Maharal of 16th century Prague relates in Netivot Olam that “when a person is busy with two pursuits – work to provide for what his body needs and Torah for completion of his soul – he will not find any sin.”
So it is clear that Jewish tradition advocates intensive Torah study together with learning a trade. In our times, this means teaching students whatever they need to earn a university degree – the primary path for earning a livelihood in today’s world. (I also advocate joint yeshiva and university programs – a topic for a future column).
Lest one think it is impossible to provide an intensive yeshiva education while studying language, mathematics, science or history, a glance at the yeshiva world in the US proves that highschool students attending the most haredi institutions – Lakewood, Torah Va’daas, Philadelpia, Chaim Berlin, Telshe, and more study all these subjects as mandated by US law. This provides students with the option of university study, which many pursue, and produces well-balanced and worldly Torah scholars who bring sanctity to God’s name in the workplace and earn great respect for their communities.
I must make two important clarifications. Maimonides, at the end of the Laws of the Sabbatical and Jubilee years, elaborates on the benefits of doing nothing but studying Torah. The Ohr HaChayim, one of the greatest biblical commentators of the early 18th century, explains that this teaching refers to a person or group who wants to support a full-time Torah scholar in a partnership. Maimonides, in the Laws of Torah Study quoted above, is referring to a person who places a burden on the nation through his learning, and essentially forces others to support him. If someone has a private arrangement by which he does nothing but study Torah while receiving the support of a private individual, this is a blessing.
I personally love nothing more than quiet moments alone with the Talmud, or studying the Parsha with my children, and cannot imagine a more beautiful lifestyle. However, as Maimonides states, no person can choose to place the burden of supporting him on the community. This is exactly what the haredi school system does.
Clarification number two relates to our need as a community to produce elite Torah scholars. It has always been part of our tradition to identify a select group of young men who have the potential and drive needer to spend their entire lives studying Torah and we, as a community, should not only support them but should feel blessed to have that opportunity. The number in each generation who fit these criteria is quite small, but even today we should find those elite scholars and spare them any worry about having to earn a living.
I have extensive plans to establish a system of government-funded schools to provide haredi boys with the opportunity to reconnect to authentic Jewish study of Torah and general studies, enablinge them to sustain their families with dignity. I bless all our students with a successful and fruitful school year, but will not cease to work toward rehabilitating the haredi system as an MK and through the Am Shalem movement. It is time for the haredim who claim to fight for authentic Judaism to truly live by that lofty ideal.
The writer is an MK, and the founder and chairman of the Am Shalem political movement.
Read full Op-Ed in The Jerusalem Post By Rabbi Chaim Amsalem
“The US proves that highschool students attending the most haredi institutions – Lakewood, Torah Va’daas, Philadelpia, Chaim Berlin, Telshe, and more study all these subjects .” Sorry but Lakewood high schools do not have secular studies. I think they should and its a problem but they don’t. And most of the yeshivas mentioned above do not support a college education aside from Ytv allowing only Touro. Even Chaim Berlin has recently made it extremley diffucult to attend college.
Rav Amselam, shlita, is a remarkable leader who speaks emes when he says that the modern trend for Chareidim to only learn Torah is an aberration and really contrary to daas torah and halacha. Hopefully, the more challenged rabbonim who mindlessly oppose teaching secular subjects in schools needed to get a good paying job and then discourage their talmidim from going out and pursuing a profession to support their familes will see the folly of their views and become part of the needed solution.
קול קורא במדבר – לדאבוני
the Truth is apparent when Spoken
This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.
As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.
One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.
As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can’t learn all day, but it is definitly not the “real” way yidden are supposed to be educated.
There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.
100% emes. Baruch Hashem that we are zocheh to true leaders such as Rabbi Amsalem who are not afraid to speak the truth. He is 100% correct, and anyone who disagrees with him is either in denial, or more likely simply ignorant. May Hashem bless us with the zechus to recognize those who represent the truth of the Torah.
He makes a good argument with plenty of evidence to support his beliefs. I agree 100%
All what his said is right after marriage not in the yeshives where bucurim study most frum yeshives in Europe in the old days was only Torah study
he is just stating the obvious.
This guy is right. I was saddened in my community to learn that the children skipped their math classes. Truly this is a foolish move. I was proud that when I was in school, I excelled at mathematics and even took calculus in my senior yr of high school. I can not imagine the minds that could have been created if they would take an analytical class that deals with equations and other mathematical experiences. We aren’t trying to make you a Calculus teacher, but it really does improve the mind and create a pathway in your brain that can be used for further analytical and mathematical thinking.
How refreshing it is to hear Truth! It feels good to the soul when Truth is expressed and clarified! One only has to be in touch with their soul in order to feel it. Our generation has to reevaluate and be careful that we are not trying to be smarter than Hashem by creating lifestyles that are not in sync with what the Torah has so simply and clearly directed us to do. Unfortunately the children of todays generation are suffering and we ARE seeing the consequences of this unhealthy situation. Not only that so many boys are off the Derech, but many who stay in line feel so suffocated and view Yeshiva as a negative confinement. May Hashem guide us and give us the strength to make appropriate change!
“doctors, tailors, launderers, plowers, carpenters, land measurers, shoe makers and repairmen, wood choppers, beer makers, bakers, smiths, trap makers, engravers, skin tanners, mill workers, scribes, pit diggers, bundle and beam transporters, wool merchants and weavers.”
Of all trades listed, the only one requiring immersion is secular education TODAY is doctoring. Doctoring in the old times didn’t require one attend college, university, or even study medicine in a formal setting.
This theory that “secular education” will free you from poverty is another myth fanned by higher education fat-cats. Any Yeshiva boy who wants to can learn just about any trade he wishes.
Amsalem is just another voice of a modern orthodox wannabe Rabbi.
The fact that he’s saying different that every Gedol shows how wrong he is. He has the wrong Haskofa.
maybe in isreal. however, in america much cheaper and better to live off the goverment. freed medical, hud, food stamps, no taxes, lower yeshivah tuition.
why be a fool and work to pay taxes ?
“While the minimal degree of Jewish content in the more secular schools saddens me, I am even more troubled by the third category described above” (qote from the 1st paragraph in this article) In these few words you see that this Rabbi has an agenda. Which is worse not teaching secular studies in a chareidi school or not teaching much Judaism or limited Judaism in a secular school? Which frum person in any way can condone the EY secular schools that promote non-jewish ideals?
While I personally work, and work hard, I am happy there are thousand of bnei torah learning full-time (and happy that is their life choice) and if ever they have go to work they can learn how to make a living then. I did it! In the age of new technology etc, most of what one learnt 20 years ago is stale and newer ways have come around (are they better who knows!!).The Bnei Torah who literally moiser nefesh to learn protect us from terrible things, they are the soldiers on the front line. Whatever time one can learn, lets do just that and in High school let them learn whatever they can!! Go to Williamsburg there are many, many business man that did very well without any education but worked hard!!
And VIN gets slammed too for printing the truth.
Where does he come from Rabbi Amsalem? The Yeshiva of Valozhin closed its doors , because the government made it mandatory to have secular studies!!!! Post marriage men after being in kolel for a few years, all have found gainful employment. Parnossoh is from the Ribboine Shel Oilem, and anyone who doubts that, is not worthy of giving an opinion on any subject!
I don’t care much what Amselam has to say, but I’m troubled about the fact, that you cant have a civilized debate in our community on this issue, your considered an ‘Oisforf’, or worse for just bringing up this topic, you get shunned.., so at least I appreciate Amselam for his guts, to say what he believes. and he is basing it all on real Torah, not Hashkafah.
What a great idea. Not only do our children have a Parnosa,they can also be lights of how to do business honestly, and without making a Chelul Hashem.
The Avodah in Yiddishkeit is to always find the right balance. No extreeme is good. It is definitely dangerous to expose kids to certain environments. One must use tremendous insight how and when. The main point is that if the system would be different and there would be appropriate ways to “Educate your kid according to his way” society as a whole would benefit and produce ALL kids with an appreciation for Yiddishkeit and true Yorei Shomaim!
I don’t see the debate.
Today’s generation thinks it is acceptable to lie to have no formal education, no means of supporting a family, and then lie to the government to get handouts that are designed to be given to those with extreme hardship. The number of educated young men who can earn a living is decreasing dramatically.
I work for a healthcare organization here in FL. A person cannot even work in one of our hospitals as an orderly without having basic computer skills as all of the payroll, and HR-related functions are computer based. Nurses are required to pass a technical competency test as part of their application. So they not only need to be certified in nursing, but must have significant computing experience/knowledge as well.
The funniest part of this debate is when the “no education” types CLAIM that non-frum companies won’t hire them, and that is why they are failures in life. Had they only gotten an education and some business schooling, they could have been the one DOING the hiring and providing jobs in the community.
Too many rely on the socialist government, like disgusting liberals. It is high time we are self-sufficient. Too bad too many are too lazy.
I wonder what Amsalem does for Parnassah and how he prepared for said Parnassah?
I’ve had countless discussions about this issue over the years and i’m sure so have you, How can a young married man feel good about themselves going out into the world without the basic tools needed to communicate with this fast growing andvanced world, we give all this education to our girls then tell them to go out and work, get married to a ben torah have baby’s do the cooking cleaning homework with kids while all the time the man of the house is “learning” or in a job that his embrrassed about.
How long do u think till the wife looses all respect for her husbend and then the shalom bayit problems start.
All this so called “learning” or whatever we r doing in the yishevas with our boy’s (who’s talking about all the dropouts) that just feel so lost because their not cut out for so much learning and look what’s going on with our children because of it.
Don’t u Rabbonim think it’s time we start giving our boy’s some kind of education and change all that comes from it in their future, How much better would our homes be when giving them a fighting chance when starting with at least ones DIGNITY CONFIDENCE and so much more that comes with just feeling good with ourself.
The Rambam had a wealthy brother who supported him for several years. Does anybody know if this wealthy brother’s math studies helped him attain his wealth?
finally a voice of sanity in this insane asylum,that is masquerading itself as authentic judaism,finally, finally someone had the guts to stand up and scream ”the emperror has no clothes” .this criminaly insane system,of discouraging our young people from getting a secular education,and brainwashing our children that going out to work and earning a living,is something our torah does not want,this has destroyed a whole generation of jews,it was high time someone got up and screamed enough is enough.
Ya gotta love how the anti-Israel chareidim (which is NOT all chareidim) are against learning secular studies and a trade (and -excuse the 4-letter word- WORKing), but then complain about not getting enough financial aid from the state they don’t recognize!
Just wondering if rabbi amalem himself has a job besides torah learning,
couldn’t be more true… it is a chiyuv for a man to support his wife, as stated in the kesuba. and obviosly the appropriate steps must be taken in advance to prepare yourself, thats basic common sence. Noone is allowed to just rely on a miracle< as it says "ein somchin al hanes" but of course it cannot affect your torah learning either and the right college/trainig must be within the torah guidelines.
Wow, don’t see that too often. Yasher Koach, but all he is doing is clarifying what is simple economics…the Charedi community is unsustainable in this fashion. The tragedy I have seen is that a lot of young men after thay are married with a child or two really WANT to get a job after kollel, but their secular education stopped at about 4th grade. They are close to functionally illiterate in secular subjects and wash out very quickly from educational programs. It is great to see this Rabbi writing this way. Reserve full time learning for the true scholars among us, everyone else can work for a living and learn at night, like me! 15 years with my chevrusa and 4 siyummim, Brachos, Succah, Makkos, Megilla, and now about half way through Kiddushin. Granted, not a stellar pace, but it is doable adn I am VERY proud of my accomplishments. I also hold a BA and master’s degree and work in finance. My boy is in the Yeshivah program at YU after spending two years post high school learning full time in a charedei Yeshivah in E”Y. My girls are all going to go to college, G-d willing, as well, after a year or two at seminary. Girls need to have the ability to earn a parnassah as well, should they G-d forbid ever have to be on their own, or need to contribute to teh bottom line in the family as something other than very low paid secretary or grossly underpaid teacher.
PMO inFL, we may have disagreed on Mrs. Bachmann, but gotta love ya here.
The Charedi World killed Judaism in Israel with their cult-lifestyles that were born in early 20th century. If the Charedi world from the begging practiced authentic Judaism that existed for thousands of years, then 80% of today’s Jews in Israel would not turn away from Torah. Israelis see the unauthentic Charedi lifestyle that only burdens the rest of society and does not make any logical sense of fulfill any purpose and think that this is what Judaism is all about. Unfortunately the ship will only sink further, until it reaches the bottom. Charedim can believe in whatever illusions they want, but once Israel runs out of cash to support their existence then every starving family with 6 kids will start to reevaluate their lifestyle choices that were dictated by the “gadolim.”
To those that question the value of secular higher education, just look at basic statistics on income and poverty. Math is not an illusion. Charedim and Arabs (both groups that don’t value education) live in severe poverty compared to rest of society. Every parent that raises their children to live in this lifestyle are basically robbing them of opportunities that the developed world has to offer.
Any secular education should be conducive to self-employment. It’s extremely difficult for a frum Jew to work in a corporate environment for many reasons. They include shabbos, holidays, tznius, etc.
Also, the ability to verbally communicate in English without sounding like some mumbling foreigner is essential to success in the workplace or in even interviewing for a job. We stick our children in Yeshivahs for so long, they forget all semblance of English communications, not to mention picking up horrible social skills “learned” in that environement. I will not go into the gory details, but we all know what I am talking about in terms of hygiene, public eating, skin blemishes, dress, etc. These things count in the work world. Maybe they shouldn’t, but they do.
interesting i heard from cope counselors that many can not write a simple sentence let alone read on grade level yet they need 10k salaries My eldest son learnt in israel for several years to notch yeshivas quietly they helped him get into college and med school they are not foolish they need funds too. their bench warmers arent paying and with lakewood ending secular studies as un necessary what will these illiterates do fix cars computers they need to read for that
The lubavitcher Rebbe Ztz”L is considerd by the ultra orthodox community as a seculer who whent to university and who had a worldly understanding, yet he ws clear that there should be no secular studs for the young minds and they should
to all you naysayers. what is wrong with touro? there are no pritzus issues there. It’s just that you all are so brainwashed by self appointed “gedolim”. You are all robots who have no clue how to think for yourselves.
When the Yeshivas have a mandatory shnorr campaign as part of the studies, they have gone too far. Children do not need to be taught to beg for change door to door in order to be good Yidden. The privilege of exclusive Torah study must be earned, not made the norm. Too many kolel guys plotz on the same blatt of Gemara for years and never get anywhere but social services. We need more Torah scholars who are wealthy and successful, otherwise we make a chilul Hashem to our secular brothers and sisters who otherwise might make teshuva. There are hungry children sleeping in bathtubs in Boro Park, and on dirt floors in Yerushalayim and not for lack of Torah study.
I read a story in a book once about a Jewish man who wanted to live a celibant lifestyle and never marry. In the end when he met his heavenly court, he was told that had he married, he might have grown even more with our Creator and the Universe. To say that you will not work a job of any particular capacity in your lifetime must indeed be of the same expression. Even the most menial work I have engaged in in my lifetime has indeed been a welcomed situation of adversity and self learning. True we don’t all need to do menial work just to be a human being, but consider that the adversity you face in the work place is a growing opportunity in your challenges to learn and adhere to Torah and Jewish fundimentals. This is how we grow and this is how we become a true Jewish leader and strong mind and trustworthy responsible student of all that this creation has to challenge our soul with in life.
Secular education is a MUST. And if you want to support a family, that means a 6-figure salary. Not much work out there pays 6 figures unless one has a decent college education.
It is a national embarassment how many people live, making their lives by taking from taxpayers.
How do I know Mr. (rav) Amsalem is DEAD WRONG!
#1) All the modern, and reform Jews who always jump in 2 slam the real yiden and ehrlicha yiden, are posting their wonderful remarks now as well! My rabbi always thought me that if I wanna know if im right with any halucha or midah, I should look on the so called yiden and does who are far from yidishkeit and be just the opposite from them!
#2) Because we had a lot of heiliga rabbis and rosh yeshivas the past couple hundred years and no1 ever gave us such a twisted p’sak,
Ironically the holy rebbe of satmer reb yoel ztv”l was also against not earning a living,he only opened his first kollel reluctantly when some of his yungerleit wanted to go to lakewood,
to all the naysayer
why don’t you ask a rov or a godel to critic this article and to write why one should not learn secular studies, and or a profession, and bring reference’s from previous gedolem and the Talmud like Rav Chaim Amsalem does. I am sure vin will post it. Why not some rov from Lakewood.
if one really studies the Talmud one can clearly see that they where worldly, studied secular studies science and things like that.
also lets remember the Talmud (both of them) was not written in yiddish, Hebrew, or loshen kodesh but in Aramaic, English of its time (lingo franko) proof they had a secular education
I received a liberal arts degree, went to law school and then took accounting courses to qualify for the CPA exam. No one can accuse me of being anti-secular education. Neither my married son nor any of my four sons-in-law are learning in kollel, so you can’t say I’m beating the drums for kollel. That having been said, I agree that a career does not necessarily make college a must. One can go to trade or vocational schools; the problem is finding good ones. I doubt the Rambam or Sforno went to a university, and with all respect to Charlie Hall, I wouldn’t hold Rav Aharon Lichtenstein as a model for most of the yeshiva world.. Furthermore, if you look at the Rambam in Hilchos Talmud Torah, he argues for 3 hours a day working and 9 hours a day learning. If you look at the Rambam at the end of Hilchos Shmitta veYovel, he argues for those who pursue a full time devotion to learning.
That having been said, secular education in our yeshivas is a churban. Most boys don’t know enough to understand a trade or technical manual, let alone go to college. In fact, most of them can’t even say a clear, coherent d’var Torah. At some point, we have to educate boys better.
its important to distinguish between the two things of earning a parrnosa which is a chiuv and you can’t argue with all the mikirous, on the other hand who says we in conclusion YES we most work! but not as the way of the nations we have to make unique type of kalim ad hashem will pour in his brachaneed the secular program for making parnossa you might have to work at it in a diffrent way but yiden were always creative in finding a livelihood even when the sufficed was not in their favor parraoh decreed that the girls should live this means that ththey should be educatedin the ways of mitzraim,
What will the frum do when all government aid ends under the incoming Republicans which you all love to support?
I welcome people not getting an education. Depend on the rest of us to support you? That day is soon to end. What will you do with your ten kids, worn out wife, and major debt?
No health care, no education, no future.
All in the name of Torah.
What utter morons.
to all those mechanchim that have brainwashed our children into believing that work is a dirty word you will all have to give a din vecheshbon one day. how can they assur yeshiva lite from going to collegel but urge them to marry girls who are in college and will earn adecent parnossa. If college is so evil for men why is it ok for girls to go. Maybe its because the boys are not taught to live in the real world but live in a fantasy world that all their needs will be taken care of by their parents ,wives and inlaws. I always noticed that my daughters have much stronger haskafas then my long time learning boys, know hilchos kashrus and hilchos shabbos much better then most boys who barely learn 5 blatt over a whole winter zman. Previous comments were correct that we are raising bochurim and yungerlite that are both illiterate and lazy and would rather survive on handouts fron family and Uncle sam then earn are honest living.
My father A’H told me the Jews survived because they had a trade as a backup to all learning and education.
Chacha Ovadia Yosef already booted this bum from Shas.
Seems to be getting quite heated, but anyway here goes 🙂
– It is very difficult to get away from corporations nowadays which means that you need an education in order to be able to earn a living functioning in a corporate environment
– You are more likely to be able to earn a living with a umnas kalah unekiyah in a professional environment
– The primary responsibilities of a married man are
a) Support his wife and children
b) Learn torah
He is absolutely right! This weeks parsha states that the officer who was in charge of the army first turned back those who built a new house, than those who planted a new vineyard and finally those who where recently engaged (airusin). The talmud points out that, that is the correct order. First someone must have the means of a livelihood, and only then are they supposed to get married. The talmud further points out that in the curses recorded in parshas ki sovo, the order is reversed. First it states that a person will get engaged and then build a house and then plant a vineyard. Meaning that if one gets married first and only then seeks a livelihood, this itself is a curse! Take it from someone who is 31 and has 4 children bli ayin hara, and is only now trying very hard to make it through college and earn a degree. All because I went through a flawed chareidi yeshiva system, which claims that it is based upon the talmud, when in fact it really is going against the talmud, and causing the non chareidi people to disrespect us, a huge chilul Hashem!