Welcome, Guest! - or
Easy to remember!  »  VinNews.com

New York - Hatzalah to Add Ezras Nashim?

Published on: September 18, 2011 01:19 PM
Change text size Text Size  

Photo illustrationNew York - A revolutionary new initiative that would have Hatzalah of Borough Park and Williamsburg adding a women’s division to assist with labor, delivery and other emergency women’s situations is currently underway, according to an announcement made by B’Derech founder and attorney Ruchy Freier on NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind’s radio program last night.

The division, called Ezras Nashim, is modeled after a similar program in New Square that has been operating successfully for the past three years.  Ezras Nashim, which already has between two hundred and two hundred and fifty women EMTs and doulas enrolled, was formed after close consultation with numerous rabbonim to protect the tzniyus of women in labor, many of whom are uncomfortable having a man in their community delivering their baby.

“Women who have had a baby delivered by Hatzalah are grateful to them, but they are also embarrassed and humiliated by the experience,” said Mrs. Freier.  “If they meet that EMT or Hatzala member, they will likely cross the street to avoid him.  We are all so proud of Hatzalah.  We can’t live without them.  But the voice of the women now has to be heard.”

Advertisement:

Freier pointed out that Hatzalah was originally founded in the late 1970’s with both male and female members in order to protect the tzniyus of women, but when concern arose about possible mixed situations between Hatzalah members, the decision was made to keep Hatzalah a men’s only organization.

While Ezras Nashim would be a division of Hatzalah, the two entitiess would be kept entirely separate.  EMT training courses are forming now for women who would like to train to become part of Ezras Nashim.

Assemblyman Hikind expressed support for the concept, calling it “almost a no brainer.”

“We all have unbelievable admiration for Hatzala,” said Hikind.  “We have a beautiful community here.  We go to the nth degree for modesty, in this situation, it just makes sense.”

Heshy Jacobs, a member of Hatzalah’s executive board, told VIN News that adding women to Hatzalah is an idea that has been discussed numerous times and each time, the rabbonim who advise the volunteer ambulance corps have ruled against the change.  Jacobs stressed that tzniyus is of the utmost importance to Hatzalah but expressed concern that the introduction of a women’s division to Hatzalah is a move that, while well intentioned, could be life threatening.

“There are many things at which women are superior, but when it comes to speed and physical strength, which are both of the essence in a medical emergency, it is a proven fact that men have an advantage,” Jacobs told VIN News.  “Additionally we already have systems in place to get our responders in place as quickly as possible.  Borough Park has cars out on the street all night who can respond within seconds.  Flatbush has ambulances that are manned around the clock.  We have this down to a science and can respond immediately to any situation.  By introducing women into the scenario, you are adding another layer to the process and you are talking about a situation where a delay of seconds can literally cost lives.  You don’t fix something that isn’t broken.”

Jacobs invited Mrs. Freier to discuss her proposition with Hatzalah’s Beis Din, a group of prominent rabbonim who have been advising Hatzalah for over twenty years and understand both the issues of tzniyus and the well oiled machine that is Hatzalah and said that if they approved of the idea he would be happy to implement it.

“I am not opposed to women,” explained Jacobs.  “I am opposed to anything that can cause potentially life threatening delays.”

Voice your opinion in the comments section, but please do so respectfully.



More of today's headlines

New York, NY - The organizers of an Islamic community center and mosque near ground zero are opening a temporary space at the site. The newly remodeled community... Manhattan, NY - US presidential hopeful Rick Perry is hoping to cook up some Jewish support with a kosher reception this week. According to the Politico website, the...

 

Total119

Read Comments (119)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:21 PM UseYourHead Says:

Brilliant name! Thanks for the illustrative photo, it makes the whole thing much more clear.

2

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:27 PM Election2012 Says:

Great idea

3

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:32 PM EMT Class Says:

EMT class Forming now a class in Boro Park and in Williamsburg for women look out for the ads, Williamsburg will be daytime and Boro Park in the evenings

4

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:34 PM Professional Says:

Dear Mr. Jacobs: I am happy to see that you are receptive to having women join. However, if your only "concern is saving lives", Please stop taking patients to Maimonides and take them to a hospital where patients can be treated professionally and get the best care.

Hatzolah should insist that Maimonides improve their Emergency Room, Have better trained Radiologists and the general care should be better. The quality of care is inferior.

5

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:44 PM ChuchemAtik Says:

Jacobs raises great points I haven't thought about. Think of a blizzard situation; either they won't be able to respond or the "men's division" will need to lend a shoulder, which would defeat the purpose.

6

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:39 PM Henshe Says:

Long overdue, tznisdik women do not enjoy having men handling their bodies.

7

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:40 PM Anonymous Says:

On the one hand, these women feel awkward to be treated by men, but most of them go to MALE Obstetricians and Gynecologists. The Schwartz team and the Rebarber team etc etc 15 Male physicians with two females. The teritz and excuse is that they are not heimisha from down the block. OK. So they feel more comfortable with a gentile or non frum individual , Nu, Nu.

8

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:46 PM ofcourse Says:

While i understand Mr Jacobs concern, i actually researched it and in as mentioned in the article New Square has it already for 3 years which was implemented by the Skvere Rabbi and they are very succesfull with the program and by the way they dont even have Woman driving there and its working out as best possible and i have family there which they say people are very happy, and since that's the case and its not a situation where it should Chas V'shulem cost lives this should actually be a no brainer if this can be implemented all over, and on those things chzall teach us that the more the better.

Thanks to who ever is working on it to bring it active and i guess credit will also have to be given to who ever started it SKVERER RABBI and i Heard that Satmarer Rabbi from KJ also wants to implement it.

9

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:56 PM inNY Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

On the one hand, these women feel awkward to be treated by men, but most of them go to MALE Obstetricians and Gynecologists. The Schwartz team and the Rebarber team etc etc 15 Male physicians with two females. The teritz and excuse is that they are not heimisha from down the block. OK. So they feel more comfortable with a gentile or non frum individual , Nu, Nu.

Your missing the point, Hatzalah members aren't full time Doctors, we are talking about First-Responders, sometimes 4-5 male members can show up in such incidents, and i truly feel its not appropriated.

This initiative is long overdue, and i commend Mrs. Freier for starting this, may she have Hatzalacha.

10

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:56 PM Hatzollllah Says:

Reply to #8  
ofcourse Says:

While i understand Mr Jacobs concern, i actually researched it and in as mentioned in the article New Square has it already for 3 years which was implemented by the Skvere Rabbi and they are very succesfull with the program and by the way they dont even have Woman driving there and its working out as best possible and i have family there which they say people are very happy, and since that's the case and its not a situation where it should Chas V'shulem cost lives this should actually be a no brainer if this can be implemented all over, and on those things chzall teach us that the more the better.

Thanks to who ever is working on it to bring it active and i guess credit will also have to be given to who ever started it SKVERER RABBI and i Heard that Satmarer Rabbi from KJ also wants to implement it.

Lets See how it will work:
Call come in to hatzolah for help....
Hotzolah by law is required to dispatch the firs available person so they go onto the radio for a full trauma (delivery bla"z) who will respond.
By law they cant tell a man not to respond and they are obligated to send the first and closest member.
now a man will respond first to stabilize and wait till the first women arrive now if you are an EMT or have a friend an EMT ask them what needs to be done the fist thing on such a call and than you tell me if there is still a need to wait for a women. hint: crowning

12

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Monsey has had it for years and it has worked out realy great. The members are older frum labor coaches that try to keep a low profile and a calm atmosfire during delivery so not to scare the mother.

13

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:52 PM yalili Says:

I happen to agree with mr. Jacobs 100% that men are a bit faster when it comes to driving and those sort but it wouldn't be a bad idea to have woman just for delivering babies and not for other types of emergency that just my thought.

14

 Sep 18, 2011 at 01:59 PM monseyfan Says:

My mother was on Hatzolah in Washington Heights about 28 years ago.

15

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:00 PM Anonymous Says:

The clientele at the MALE chiropractors in Boro Park and Bensonhurst are WOMEN. Its nice to say that the tseniyosdike women don't want men to touch them, Makes alot of sense. But then answer to the question of the male obstetricians and the chiropractors.

16

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Imagine 3:30am calls comes in Code 1, full trama, active delivery in progress.......
the appointed Female meber is in bed and needs to jump out of bed and be out of the house in seconds of course, and meanwhile the Male members are not responding they are leaving the call for the ezras nushim....
Don't start saying that a member from EN will be up all night because these calls dont happen everynight and its a waste of time.

17

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:03 PM amerikaner Says:

they should team up with the Doula program that is on-going in Maimonides Hospital every day of the week 24/7 (almost). Those Doulas do a great job and are all VOLUNTEERS

18

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:07 PM zeide Says:

As a member that assisted in 4 deliveries,1 of them a neighbor across the street, none of the women cross the street when they see me. Even though it's uncomfortable the first few minutes, but if you do it with the PT modesty as a priority you can turn an uncomfortable situation into a comfortable experience.
My suggestion, that only older (white hair or beards) members should respond to these situations, as was the feedback of my PT.

19

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:07 PM zippobel Says:

A womens' division is a great idea and a long time in coming. As far as women responding slower to emergencies, Mr. Jacobs you are wrong. I know many women, myself included, who can be up dressed and ready to respond faster than any man. The strength issue might be of a concern but that will only harm a patient if the long time"Mens' club" does not help out when a patient is too heavy for a women's crew to move. As we (EMTs) all know most stretchers have wheels and a good EMT is taught how to lift and carry a patient.

As far as advantages that a woman might have over a man; 1)a woman would not think that the EXPOSE part of the exam is fun. Something I learned by teaching a Hatzolah class to men. 2) Women can also do more than one thing at a time without giving it a second thought, that is why Hashem made us mothers. 3) Women can more easily enter places where only women are allowed like MIkvahs, and treat other women with less embarrassement.

So Mr. Jacobs. it is time for you and the rest of your backwards thinking club to stop dragging your knuckles on the ground and not only come out in strong support for this, but encourage your followers to do the same.

20

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:06 PM villyamsburger Says:

I think this should be a pilot program only and see how it works.
I believe in williamsburg woman will call Hatzalah and ask woman members for even a minor trauma. I believe it will go a little out of hand in the W

22

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:22 PM enoughizenough Says:

If ladies only go on calls related to births etc. that would make it pretty obvious for neighbors and onlookers what's going on. That could cause uncomfortable situations as well, as when men go on call it could be for any other reason.

23

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:25 PM Yossi Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

The clientele at the MALE chiropractors in Boro Park and Bensonhurst are WOMEN. Its nice to say that the tseniyosdike women don't want men to touch them, Makes alot of sense. But then answer to the question of the male obstetricians and the chiropractors.

Very stupid trying to compare it to a chiropractor....

24

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:34 PM yossi Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

The clientele at the MALE chiropractors in Boro Park and Bensonhurst are WOMEN. Its nice to say that the tseniyosdike women don't want men to touch them, Makes alot of sense. But then answer to the question of the male obstetricians and the chiropractors.

I think the idea is great but how in the world can this work in BP or Wmsbg.?
Call comes in to Hatzoloh for a patient who is about to deliver at home (usually this call is already on the last minute)..Now Hatzoloh will dipatch the call thru its radio communication..Now what happens next.? Who will start calling a Nurse or doola to make sure she is available on a second notice...She has do drop her baking,ironing ,or any household work..? Now a member has to be dispatched to her home to pich her up and bring her to the patients home...Can you imagine 8:43 am when a call comes in and hundreds of buses are roaming the streets how long will it take till the Women volunteer gets to the house.? This can omly work (maybe) in middle of the night or shabbos and yom tov when the streets are clear of traffic...
I can NOT see how this will ever take off...I believe Mr. Jacobs had all those questions answered and this is mission impossible....

25

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:29 PM zippobel Says:

Reply to #22  
enoughizenough Says:

If ladies only go on calls related to births etc. that would make it pretty obvious for neighbors and onlookers what's going on. That could cause uncomfortable situations as well, as when men go on call it could be for any other reason.

Why do you feel that men need to be on back-up should anything go wrong? Don't you think the women will be trained as well as the men?

26

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:27 PM Anonymous Says:

It would be nice if the men do bring in a woman when it is a ob/gyn case if time allows. I use a frum ob/gyn in Monsey, but would still would not feel comfortable if someone I know responds to an ob/gyn emergency. However, at the same time, patient care should never be compromised and if a man is there and it is an emergency, he should definitely treat. Kol Hakovod to all of Hatzolo, men & women and may we only use you on simchas.

28

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:37 PM ExpatriateOwl Says:

"But the voice of the women now has to be heard.”

Won't the men all walk out?

29

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:38 PM Secular Says:

Interesting.

The poskim say, that when it comes to chillul shabos it should be done by MEN who are versed in halacha, and NOT by women or minors. Lest people underestimate the value of pikuach Nefesh.

30

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:38 PM Hocker411 Says:

Are you kidding me these guys are rescuing men women and children everyday and now 30 yrs later its a problem to touch women wow what has this religion become

31

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:39 PM OyGevald Says:

Hatzoloh admits it is working in New Square.
If it works there, it can work anywhere!
They don't respond directly to calls. They don't drive to calls. They are picked up by a Hatzoloh member that takes them to the scene.
What the Jacobs' won't like is, that when the women get in the back with the patient, no men are allowed to ride in the back.

32

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:41 PM Hatzolah Guy Says:

To all those with this brilliant idea,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Great thinking!!! But just to let you know this will NEVER work out ,when you have such a call 3oclock in the morning it will take for a female member aprox 10 min to get ready which at that time we are en rout with pt to hospital, The fact that new square has it,, well they have a few hundred families while boro park/flatbush/williamsburg Each bl'h have over 11,000 families.. Now to you rabbi jackobs as always in your article you left out the williamsburg hatzolah, Just for all of you to know they were the 1ST with this overnite program without those special suburbans just everyone in there own vehicle.

33

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:44 PM yaakov doe Says:

Does anyone know how many babies are delivered by Hatzalah? From what I understand such calls are not common occurances.

34

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:48 PM zippobel Says:

Only a man can say that a woman can not drive as quickly or as safely to the scene of a accident. Speaking as a long-time EMT and driver, you are wrong. I can out-drive any of you. By the way not all women take so long to get ready especially in an emergency situation. I can name a lot of situations where a man might take a little bit longer to stop what he is doing to get ready and respond.

35

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:50 PM rationalman Says:

Reply to #8  
ofcourse Says:

While i understand Mr Jacobs concern, i actually researched it and in as mentioned in the article New Square has it already for 3 years which was implemented by the Skvere Rabbi and they are very succesfull with the program and by the way they dont even have Woman driving there and its working out as best possible and i have family there which they say people are very happy, and since that's the case and its not a situation where it should Chas V'shulem cost lives this should actually be a no brainer if this can be implemented all over, and on those things chzall teach us that the more the better.

Thanks to who ever is working on it to bring it active and i guess credit will also have to be given to who ever started it SKVERER RABBI and i Heard that Satmarer Rabbi from KJ also wants to implement it.

When hatzalah was in its infant stages and they were reluctant to take in single males for the same issue and said the rabbinical authorities they consult told them single males should not be allowed...I personally asked the debreciener rav and R' moishe bick ...rabbinical consults at the time and both gave an unequivocal ok - it wasn't an issue - I even got a letter from the debreceiner rav stating this.....so i do question the organization when they mention halacha...

36

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:51 PM gevald Says:

Do you have in willy woman that drive? Are they going to run by foot? Will they call a taxi to run to the call? How is this going to work exactly?

37

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #34  
zippobel Says:

Only a man can say that a woman can not drive as quickly or as safely to the scene of a accident. Speaking as a long-time EMT and driver, you are wrong. I can out-drive any of you. By the way not all women take so long to get ready especially in an emergency situation. I can name a lot of situations where a man might take a little bit longer to stop what he is doing to get ready and respond.

We're not talking about driving fast or pulling out of your driveway quickly,,,, When i jump out of bed i m in my clothes and into my car in between 30 sec to a minute Versus for a female she wouldn't leave unless everything on her is straight and i bet that on the way to the door she will make a stop at the mirror!!!!! Not good.

38

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

The clientele at the MALE chiropractors in Boro Park and Bensonhurst are WOMEN. Its nice to say that the tseniyosdike women don't want men to touch them, Makes alot of sense. But then answer to the question of the male obstetricians and the chiropractors.

Agreed! But the male chiropractor doesn't meet his pt's in a social manner or in shul.

39

 Sep 18, 2011 at 02:59 PM Wmommy Says:

Where do you sign up? Classes?

40

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:14 PM realistic Says:

I think there should be women EMTs but only for baby deliveries. B"h there are enough volunteers who respond to all emergencies and women aren't really needed, in general.

41

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:15 PM Isaac60 Says:

sorry, but for many years in the 70's and 80's many geidola rabbunim from Willie, BP and Flatbush Hisachdes and the Agudah heard both sides about women joining and they clearly stated that women should not join, even on the issue of child birth, breast feeding problems and hemorrhaging.

I was present on more then one occasion with the late Debreztiner, Hurav Moshe Bick, Hurav Yecheskel Roth, Udevorerer Ruv, The Siggeter and later the late Satmar Rabbi Moshe Teitelbaum when not only were women joining Hatzolah an issue, but for women to dispatch and for a goy to drive back on shabbos was a major issue.

The Debretziner, R' Moshe Bick and Yechskel Roth went to the eastside to discuss this with R' Moshe Fienstien and he didn't want it, R' Fienstien had no problem with the Jewish driver coming back with the ambulance either.

I might have some tapes of this.

not to go into details, the issue of Yichud and how the lady will looklike at 3 AM and who will drive her was the major concerns and still are.

Hatzolah should not change the way it was set by the founder Heshel Weber, those rabbunim who worked with him and are no longer with us, were just as smart and educated.

42

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:18 PM Paulie123 Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

The clientele at the MALE chiropractors in Boro Park and Bensonhurst are WOMEN. Its nice to say that the tseniyosdike women don't want men to touch them, Makes alot of sense. But then answer to the question of the male obstetricians and the chiropractors.

You are missing the point. There is a difference between a strange doctor that has no connection to the women and a local neighbor that has a connection to the women. Everyone agrees that during a medical emergency or a doctor visit, it is permissable to touch the women. The question is whether a heimishe guy that is friendly with the family is first choice or a women that is friendly with the family is prefferable.

43

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:20 PM woofer Says:

Oy. Most of you folks out there seem to have cave cave man ideas of men and women...like the Flintstones. Women can't drive fast? Women can't get out of the house fast? Really? The rest of the world has female EMT's, female trauma surgeons, female pilots, etc. Maybe your wife who can't move without her hair and outfit just so isn't a candidate for being a Hatzalah EMT. But speak for yourself. There are plenty of other women out there.

44

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:29 PM destro613 Says:

Hatzalah of Washington Heights always had females as well. The real problem is that too many women use a Hatzalah as a cab to the hospital!

45

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:58 PM Hatzalaaahhh Says:

Let's get into fact about other calls that Deliveries,
How about hemohaging or severe cuts on the body that a women would not want to expose when men are around, or how about emergancies that happen while women are not modest, was it ok till now that men responded to these calls YES Hatzolah has a vaad harabanim and they screen their members very carefully, they do have protocolls and rules and regulations when and how to go about treating pationts in these situations.
Hatzolah did NOT want to accept women into the orgenazation but due to pressure they have to consider it but there is very little chance for this to work out. But if it does they will probbalbly send existing members wifes for training so they could respond together to emergancie.

46

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:55 PM Momandbaby Says:

I've been a doula for close to thirty years. I go to the homes of my clients ,drive them to the hospital and stay with them until after they deliver. There has been many a time (day and night ) when I've had very little time to get my client to the hospital and I did just fine, shatiel and all. The way New Square has it set up seems to work . Women in the back and men doing the driving and back up. Why not give us a chance .

47

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:51 PM 5towns Says:

I am a woman who will not use a male doctor for OB-GYN unless it is an emergency. All of my doctors are women. Women who use male OB-GYNs are a little hypocritical. How can you expose that part of your body to a man? That said, I hope this works, I would be mortified if a male member of the local hatzolah would deliver me. Unfortunately for me all my labors were very long so no problem getting to the hospital.
It's time. If it can work in skver it can work here in the 5 towns, where we have a few frum female OBs and GYN PAs as well as EMTs.

48

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:47 PM zayin Says:

I want to see one woman that's able to leave her kids and family, withiut hesitating, during dinner time

And if the woman is old enough that her kids are old enough that she can leave them, chances are she's too old to respond quickly and efficiently.

49

 Sep 18, 2011 at 03:38 PM Babishka Says:

My daughter is an RN, this would be perfect for her!

50

 Sep 18, 2011 at 04:19 PM Truthseeker Says:

Reply to #44  
destro613 Says:

Hatzalah of Washington Heights always had females as well. The real problem is that too many women use a Hatzalah as a cab to the hospital!

And whats wrong with that? Is that not a mitzvah as well! Trust me noone calls Hatzolah unless they really feel they have to. Noone enjoys the commotion and attention it calls to their situation.

51

 Sep 18, 2011 at 04:28 PM kankan Says:

As a member I would recommend that all women should take a course in medical emergencies and stop calling hatzoloh for non emergency situations like cuts and scrapes and to find out if they need stitches.
Hatzoloh is for life and death situations only

52

 Sep 18, 2011 at 04:25 PM Anonymous Says:

and what about the new surge of frum men into the nursing field? i'm in my OB-PEDS rotation in nursing school and there is a frum guy in my class. he's married but next semester there will be a single frum guy taking OB. is this any less embarrassing than a male hatzalah member? i haven't seen anyone saying its inappropriate. and trust me when i say these teachers are NOT editing and using loshon naki for these classes. they discuss it in great detail with all the correct terms. *I* blush and squirm during these classes. how much more so a single frum guy will during these classes

53

 Sep 18, 2011 at 04:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Instead of having the women on "standby" and having to drive themselves separately to each emergency call, why not have at least one woman stationed with the the regular Hatzalah volunteers and have the men drive her to the location where she is needed so no time is lost. We are talking about emergency services, so there is no issur about having a man drive the woman paramedic to the site where assistance is needed. Nothing lewd or indecent is going to take place in the front seat of an ambulance. Alternatively, the woman can ride in the back but that would be a truly mindless concession to some fanatics.

54

 Sep 18, 2011 at 05:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
zayin Says:

I want to see one woman that's able to leave her kids and family, withiut hesitating, during dinner time

And if the woman is old enough that her kids are old enough that she can leave them, chances are she's too old to respond quickly and efficiently.

HUH? How about a woman who has not had the opportunity to have children herself. How about a woman who only has a few children and are grown? She can be quite young- she doesn't have to be a 60 year old grandmother to have children old enough to leave at home at dinner! And maybe the father should be home???

55

 Sep 18, 2011 at 05:00 PM thinkpositive Says:

Females are just as capable as men. I was taught that lesson very hard when a young female surgeon showed up at 2am to do emergency life saving brain surgery on my husband. She got herself together and up in the middle of the night, don't EVER under estimate the strengths of a woman.

56

 Sep 18, 2011 at 04:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Stop being so discriminatory saying all women are slow, can't drive as fast, make traffic, and cannot get fast enough to a call. I know plenty of women who can drive just as fast (if not faster) than men, are quicker on their feet and can think of what to do faster, and are much more skilled at multi-tasking, which is very important in emergency situations. Saying "all women" are X and cannot do Y is like saying all men are "stuck up", "sports fanatics", are reckless drivers or any of the other thousand hypothetical gender-biased comments that can be made. Should I say all Jews care about money? Of course not- don't say that all women are "slow".

57

 Sep 18, 2011 at 04:57 PM omaims Says:

Gee, I guess if I live long enough women in Hatzala might come to be. I've been asking this for years. As a volunteer in the mountains I have worked with and know many members.My daughter is a paramedic and works with Hatzala often. Be it men or women patients quite often they defer to her experience..I believe it is an eveirah to embarass someone. Would this not happen to a women patient if her male neighbor showed up where her tznius would be comprimised?
Slow driving, yes without the sirens and lights the guys can't go fast in traffic either.
If a women takes the EMT course which is over 120+ hours of commitment do you not think she will be on the road in a minute for the call.Perhaps set hours can be set for the women to be available so they can respond immediately as they know they are on call.
As far as putting on a sheitel and checking the mirror, narishkeit!
Give it a chance. It can be worked out.The glass is half full not half empty.

58

 Sep 18, 2011 at 04:42 PM Momandbaby Says:

Reply to #48  
zayin Says:

I want to see one woman that's able to leave her kids and family, withiut hesitating, during dinner time

And if the woman is old enough that her kids are old enough that she can leave them, chances are she's too old to respond quickly and efficiently.

Have been there and done that . I have left with a moments notice. Now that my youngest is 13 I guess I qualify for the local nursing home. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

59

 Sep 18, 2011 at 05:03 PM kankan Says:

As a member in Hatzalah I can attest that 90% off the calls are not true emergencies meaning life or death situations and are mostly called in by women. Let them first take a class in basic parenting and basic cuts and scrapes they shouldn’t get hysterical with every shtus. Then they should consider training for real emergencies.
Hatzlacha Rabah

60

 Sep 18, 2011 at 05:59 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #10  
Hatzollllah Says:

Lets See how it will work:
Call come in to hatzolah for help....
Hotzolah by law is required to dispatch the firs available person so they go onto the radio for a full trauma (delivery bla"z) who will respond.
By law they cant tell a man not to respond and they are obligated to send the first and closest member.
now a man will respond first to stabilize and wait till the first women arrive now if you are an EMT or have a friend an EMT ask them what needs to be done the fist thing on such a call and than you tell me if there is still a need to wait for a women. hint: crowning

In addition. The female Hatzolah members will not walk to the patient's house. They'll either drive a car themselves, or, will hitch a ride with a male Hatzolah member. The fix, it turns out, is worse than the original problem.

61

 Sep 18, 2011 at 05:53 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #4  
Professional Says:

Dear Mr. Jacobs: I am happy to see that you are receptive to having women join. However, if your only "concern is saving lives", Please stop taking patients to Maimonides and take them to a hospital where patients can be treated professionally and get the best care.

Hatzolah should insist that Maimonides improve their Emergency Room, Have better trained Radiologists and the general care should be better. The quality of care is inferior.

It is not. Their "Triage" division is wonderful.

62

 Sep 18, 2011 at 05:51 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

On the one hand, these women feel awkward to be treated by men, but most of them go to MALE Obstetricians and Gynecologists. The Schwartz team and the Rebarber team etc etc 15 Male physicians with two females. The teritz and excuse is that they are not heimisha from down the block. OK. So they feel more comfortable with a gentile or non frum individual , Nu, Nu.

Just for the record. (In spite of the fact that it sounds better, sometimes, to impugn someone's character in terms of "Ehrlichkeit" in order to make a point.) I can attest that Dr. Schwartz is 100% a Ehrliche Yid. We were neighbors, some time ago. On the issue, in general. I have a feeling that Mrs. R. Freier (With all due respect for her achievements and dedication) has expressed "Wishful Thinking", rather than a factual assessment of the situation, on the Dov Hikind radio show. (I listened to the entire interview.) As a matter of fact, there are already some women Hatzalah members who are involved on a small scale in special cases. From a Halachic and practical standpoint, it is (imho) better without the massive involvement of women Hatzalah members. For Male physicians, it is 100% OK "Al Pi Halacha" to treat women.

63

 Sep 18, 2011 at 06:01 PM TruthSeeker Says:

Being someone that knows Ruchie Freier, she only takes action when there is a real need. I understand that this will be big a humbling pill for the men to swallow but the fact is that this is truly what women prefer! The men will have to deal with their egos and frankly this is a test if their intentions are truly Lshem Shamayim. Because if it is, they should embrace it wholeheartedly!!!

64

 Sep 18, 2011 at 05:36 PM Anonymous Says:

This is fantastic! I cant imagine why any man has any opposition to it. Do they prefer to be the ones to do it....? I beg to wonder why......If its our safety you truly care about, thank you very much, but we have confidence in our woman we still prefer them!

65

 Sep 18, 2011 at 06:06 PM Mark Levin Says:

Great idea BUT ONLY with the sanction of the rabonim!

66

 Sep 18, 2011 at 06:06 PM enlightened-yid Says:

Who even comes up with arguments clamming that women in Hatzolah would endanger lives, when women around the world have been EMTs, Paramedics, Flight Nurses, Fire Fighters and non of these fantasy problems arouse in the thousands of departments. They can treat patients and carry them just as well. I know a young lady who was an Army combat medic in Iraq, came back and is a nationally registered paramedic and has been recruited by several private hospital corps till FDNY snatched her to lead their system. She is one of the best medics in NY state. I'm sure female Hatzolah members can handle the challenge. It's not rocket science.

67

 Sep 18, 2011 at 06:17 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #45  
Hatzalaaahhh Says:

Let's get into fact about other calls that Deliveries,
How about hemohaging or severe cuts on the body that a women would not want to expose when men are around, or how about emergancies that happen while women are not modest, was it ok till now that men responded to these calls YES Hatzolah has a vaad harabanim and they screen their members very carefully, they do have protocolls and rules and regulations when and how to go about treating pationts in these situations.
Hatzolah did NOT want to accept women into the orgenazation but due to pressure they have to consider it but there is very little chance for this to work out. But if it does they will probbalbly send existing members wifes for training so they could respond together to emergancie.

Then who will stay with the kids???!!!

68

 Sep 18, 2011 at 06:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

Instead of having the women on "standby" and having to drive themselves separately to each emergency call, why not have at least one woman stationed with the the regular Hatzalah volunteers and have the men drive her to the location where she is needed so no time is lost. We are talking about emergency services, so there is no issur about having a man drive the woman paramedic to the site where assistance is needed. Nothing lewd or indecent is going to take place in the front seat of an ambulance. Alternatively, the woman can ride in the back but that would be a truly mindless concession to some fanatics.

Not sure that is a good idea for either parties marrage, it's not about if it's muter or not, it's just not a smart idea to team them up

70

 Sep 18, 2011 at 07:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Most of these problems can be avoided 99 percent of the time if women dont wait till the last second, a common accurance in the w and b

71

 Sep 18, 2011 at 07:40 PM Grumpy Says:

Reply to #47  
5towns Says:

I am a woman who will not use a male doctor for OB-GYN unless it is an emergency. All of my doctors are women. Women who use male OB-GYNs are a little hypocritical. How can you expose that part of your body to a man? That said, I hope this works, I would be mortified if a male member of the local hatzolah would deliver me. Unfortunately for me all my labors were very long so no problem getting to the hospital.
It's time. If it can work in skver it can work here in the 5 towns, where we have a few frum female OBs and GYN PAs as well as EMTs.

"will not use a male doctor for OB-GYN unless it is an emergency"

...and there you have it. The whole point of Hatzolah is responding to "emergencies." If a woman has a hatzolah volunteer delivering a baby, it;s an emergency, and all bets are off. Whether or not woman should be admitted to Hatzolah is another issue. But whether to have men deliver when circumstances demand it...? There shouldn't even be a second thought.

72

 Sep 18, 2011 at 07:53 PM Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

I have the fullest confidence in the dozens upon dozens of female professionals with whom I've worked over the years. Could this be a turf battle? Provided this will not delay urgent care in the least, it may be worth a try. However, any pause to await a female attendant could result in harm to the newborn in some cases. All the concerns in the world do not justify a single case of brain damage due to waiting for a female EMT or paramedic during an obstetric or gynecologic emergency.

73

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:00 PM Monseyite Says:

As a RH hatzolah let me clarify some things regarding new square why it works over there and might work in kj but not really anywhere else, most woman in new square use refuah health center for thier ob needs the ob group that serves refuah is a group out of mt sinai the head doctor is dr. Grazi ( if I spelled his name correctly ) which btw he's a frum hemishe yid from Flatbush because of this most code 4 calls out of new square (or full trauma as you call it in the city) travel all the way to the city to mt Sinai and then and ONLY then are the woman dispatched by a pager system, how it works is the RH dispatcher dials a pager number and the woman on call calls in and the dispatcher dispatches a unit to pick up, this is all fine and dandy if it is not a code 4 imminent cause if it is even in new square they just scoop and go don't wait for nobody and would transfer to a local hospitals which have pretty good maternity wards, as far as training goes these woman are not emt's the cfr's, as far as my opinion regarding mrs friers idea all sides ofvthe issue were already brought out but as I point out even in new square it only worked out because of the reality on the ground and cannot be implemented everywhere.

74

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
zayin Says:

I want to see one woman that's able to leave her kids and family, withiut hesitating, during dinner time

And if the woman is old enough that her kids are old enough that she can leave them, chances are she's too old to respond quickly and efficiently.

I have never seen such chauvinism on this website as your response. What a load of hooey spewed forth from your brain. Where is your common sense? If you think a woman of 35 or 40 is too old to respond quickly and efficiently, you need a big lesson in life.

75

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:07 PM 5towns Says:

reply to #71
Anyone who wont do anything and everything in an emergency is a shoteh. But we do not have to put ourselves into the situation where our tznius is comprised. A frum neighbor delivering me ewwww. A frum OB GYN double ewww. Muttar or not, I can't understand why anyone would use a frum OB when there are plenty of frum, non frum and goyish women OBs that are just as qualified. It is the ick factor. If a women can be dispatched to do the delivery, everyone will be happier, except perhaps the menuval who wants to deliver the baby because he gets his kicks out of it.

76

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:24 PM growUp Says:

Reply to #42  
Paulie123 Says:

You are missing the point. There is a difference between a strange doctor that has no connection to the women and a local neighbor that has a connection to the women. Everyone agrees that during a medical emergency or a doctor visit, it is permissable to touch the women. The question is whether a heimishe guy that is friendly with the family is first choice or a women that is friendly with the family is prefferable.

I don't agree that it's cause for shame at all. We're all adults & supposedly mature enough to realize a professional medical call is simply a wonderful frum man performing the ultimate in Chesed. I had a serious female gyn. health issue & the Hatzolah member who responded was my child's best friend's father. And there was no shame between us, during or since, just an understanding that he was doing his "job"/Mitzvah & I was the grateful recipient. we even discussed the situation when our kids played together on another occasion. Anyone who's ashamed needs to stop overplaying the babyishTznius cover & grow up!

77

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:24 PM esther Says:

Reply to #71  
Grumpy Says:

"will not use a male doctor for OB-GYN unless it is an emergency"

...and there you have it. The whole point of Hatzolah is responding to "emergencies." If a woman has a hatzolah volunteer delivering a baby, it;s an emergency, and all bets are off. Whether or not woman should be admitted to Hatzolah is another issue. But whether to have men deliver when circumstances demand it...? There shouldn't even be a second thought.

of course if you have to you have to but if we can choose to have women deal with ob/gyn cases that would certainly be a best case cenario for most of us.

78

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:30 PM womenAreSafe&SLOWdrivers; Says:

Reply to #43  
woofer Says:

Oy. Most of you folks out there seem to have cave cave man ideas of men and women...like the Flintstones. Women can't drive fast? Women can't get out of the house fast? Really? The rest of the world has female EMT's, female trauma surgeons, female pilots, etc. Maybe your wife who can't move without her hair and outfit just so isn't a candidate for being a Hatzalah EMT. But speak for yourself. There are plenty of other women out there.

I'M a woman & I'll be the 1st to admit that a vast majority of women are NOT capable of driving fast. They're by nature more cautious & slow than men. Whenever a car in front of me is going slow, I know it's a woman & I'm always right. Plus I've seen female EMT's struggling to lift stretchers. this is just a bad idea. And anyone who's insulted cuz of the women's equality/lib stuff, get over it & realize Hashem created us differently. We're not inferior, just different.

79

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:33 PM LoveHashem Says:

Reply to #45  
Hatzalaaahhh Says:

Let's get into fact about other calls that Deliveries,
How about hemohaging or severe cuts on the body that a women would not want to expose when men are around, or how about emergancies that happen while women are not modest, was it ok till now that men responded to these calls YES Hatzolah has a vaad harabanim and they screen their members very carefully, they do have protocolls and rules and regulations when and how to go about treating pationts in these situations.
Hatzolah did NOT want to accept women into the orgenazation but due to pressure they have to consider it but there is very little chance for this to work out. But if it does they will probbalbly send existing members wifes for training so they could respond together to emergancie.

What a "brilliant" idea! Husbands & wives as Hatzolah partners! that way the patient will only have to wait an hour while the couple scranbles for a baysitter in middle of the night!

80

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:42 PM sam Says:

I have a solution to the problem, they should open a 24 hour emergency medical center in williamsburg and in boro park for this kind of situations and should have a ob/gen doctor available in case of emergency, no training needed, no woman needed, vehakol al bekomo yuvoi beshulem.

81

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:44 PM responseTo#52 Says:

Since your "squirm and cringe" in shame during your classes, I suggest you are much too immature for a career in medicine & should reconsider or at least wait until you mature. There's nothing shameful about medical terms, or the treatment of our bodies which Hashem bestowed on us. take some time to grow up & then see if you're capable of sitting in class without "cringing" in shame.

82

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:47 PM The chusid Says:

Reply to #52  
Anonymous Says:

and what about the new surge of frum men into the nursing field? i'm in my OB-PEDS rotation in nursing school and there is a frum guy in my class. he's married but next semester there will be a single frum guy taking OB. is this any less embarrassing than a male hatzalah member? i haven't seen anyone saying its inappropriate. and trust me when i say these teachers are NOT editing and using loshon naki for these classes. they discuss it in great detail with all the correct terms. *I* blush and squirm during these classes. how much more so a single frum guy will during these classes

The fact is, in the medical field you need to be very specific when you are learning about the human body. Your instructor is not using " lashon naki" so that when you are talking to the doctors and other medical professionals they know exactly what the patient needs. Your embarrassment can lead to lower patient care.

Also, males and females are very different. Aside from the obvious, we were created with different bone and muscles structures, and many other difference. and as a nurse you need to be very familiar with both genders in order to to your job properly. You being uncomfortable with that means you are doing a disservice to your patients.

83

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:50 PM To#52 Says:

Since u claim to "cringe" in shame in your medical class, I suggest you consider that you're much too immature for such a career. Take some time to grow up & then reconsider your career choice. There's nothing shameful about medical terms or the treatment of our bodies which Hashem bestowed on us. Like I said, until u realize this & are able to attend class without "cringing" in shame, u really should reconsider your choice of career.

84

 Sep 18, 2011 at 08:52 PM Chaya Mina Says:

Reply to #78  
womenAreSafe&SLOWdrivers; Says:

I'M a woman & I'll be the 1st to admit that a vast majority of women are NOT capable of driving fast. They're by nature more cautious & slow than men. Whenever a car in front of me is going slow, I know it's a woman & I'm always right. Plus I've seen female EMT's struggling to lift stretchers. this is just a bad idea. And anyone who's insulted cuz of the women's equality/lib stuff, get over it & realize Hashem created us differently. We're not inferior, just different.

Not all women drive slow and not all women can't lift stretchers. You can't be a volunteer, however hundreds of other women are able to help their sisters.

85

 Sep 18, 2011 at 09:00 PM mewhoze Says:

i would like to mention something which i did not see in the other posts. how about the safety of the female hatzolah member? going out of her home at 2 am by herself and then going to the person who called , g-d forbid someone could mug her etc.
there are times when the male members aren't all too thrilled with where they might have to go to reespond but they are still men.
i am a woman and i know that women can do a lot however, as a woman, i would be a bit nervous about going out int he middle of the night on my own.

86

 Sep 18, 2011 at 09:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
responseTo#52 Says:

Since your "squirm and cringe" in shame during your classes, I suggest you are much too immature for a career in medicine & should reconsider or at least wait until you mature. There's nothing shameful about medical terms, or the treatment of our bodies which Hashem bestowed on us. take some time to grow up & then see if you're capable of sitting in class without "cringing" in shame.

HEY!!!! i sat through anatomy and physiology 1 & 2 prior to nursing classes. learned many of the same things i am learning now. but then it was taught in a more professional manner. I am very insulted you think I am "too immature for a career in medicine". I knew most of the topics before i began nursing school. the way these teachers discuss these topics and the manner in which the way the class is run would make any frum person feel this way. its discussed in such a degrading way (not to mention some of the comments from the rest of the class) that it makes me uncomfortable. last time i checked being sensitive to language and the manner topics are discussed is not a disqualification to be in the medical field.

87

 Sep 18, 2011 at 09:33 PM omaims Says:

I don't know if Hatzala accepts MEN who cannot lift a strecher or if they check how fast the MEN drive to a call, but I'm willing to bet theWOMEN can perform their job just as well or better. Have you never heard Hatzala dispatch for help in lifting?
I answered calls when I was over 60. I drove, lifted and administered aid. I gave up my EMT when I realized it was too much. Don't you think people have the saichel to know what they are or are not cabaple of doing? What's wrong with asking for help on a call.?
I answered most of my calls at night.I did not have a radio to call if chas v'shalom I was attacked.Have betachon! Don't we believe no harm will come to a shaliach mitzva?
Give it a chance.
If you want to find fault wait until you see it happens.

88

 Sep 18, 2011 at 09:34 PM Diamond Says:

Reply to #75  
5towns Says:

reply to #71
Anyone who wont do anything and everything in an emergency is a shoteh. But we do not have to put ourselves into the situation where our tznius is comprised. A frum neighbor delivering me ewwww. A frum OB GYN double ewww. Muttar or not, I can't understand why anyone would use a frum OB when there are plenty of frum, non frum and goyish women OBs that are just as qualified. It is the ick factor. If a women can be dispatched to do the delivery, everyone will be happier, except perhaps the menuval who wants to deliver the baby because he gets his kicks out of it.

I really think that you guys on all comments are clueless in whats going on in the inside of those flashing light ambulances
first , tzinios is not a thing that comes across by child birth its on each and every call you walk in to another heimish house think for a second they walk in when the emergency comes in any situaition burns. falls in tubs, many different exposures that you cant even think of therefore bh they can doit in the most tzniosdig way like a frum yingerman should behave
second, in reality this can never work in new skvere most call when they need to go to hospital cause they need to travel here in boro park and willi women call when its too late cause they wait to last minute, cause they are around the corner to hospital and they always rely on that , and its always happens in the most awkward place and the most awkward time, in middle of the night erev shabbos by the zeman,
yes all we need is a women to respond and hshem yerachaim if you run in to complications

89

 Sep 18, 2011 at 09:35 PM Common sense Says:

Reply to #66  
enlightened-yid Says:

Who even comes up with arguments clamming that women in Hatzolah would endanger lives, when women around the world have been EMTs, Paramedics, Flight Nurses, Fire Fighters and non of these fantasy problems arouse in the thousands of departments. They can treat patients and carry them just as well. I know a young lady who was an Army combat medic in Iraq, came back and is a nationally registered paramedic and has been recruited by several private hospital corps till FDNY snatched her to lead their system. She is one of the best medics in NY state. I'm sure female Hatzolah members can handle the challenge. It's not rocket science.

I'm a Hatzolah member as well as a member in a secular ambulance. I've had female partners and almost all of them, have had issues with lifting and other necessary skills. That doesn't mean there can't be a physically strong woman out there but by and large this is an issue.

The real trouble is you simply CAN'T have people without significant experience running a scene. It doesn't work. A woman that is used only for emergency delivery will not be getting much experience. By law you also need Paramedics at the scene of an emergency delivery and you're not going to get women to get that training just for childbirths. (It's over a year of full-time training and costs over $5,000 a pop. You also need to be an EMT first.) There simply aren't that many deliveries in the field. Any ambulance will do their best to transport before delivery if at all possible. In New Square where the whole town is only a few blocks around you could go run for a woman to help. In Brooklyn, by the time you get a woman there there will no longer be any use for her.

The absolute LAST thing you want is to have a stupid frumaker waiting for a Woman in an emergency and you know that's were this is heading.

91

 Sep 18, 2011 at 09:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #64  
Anonymous Says:

This is fantastic! I cant imagine why any man has any opposition to it. Do they prefer to be the ones to do it....? I beg to wonder why......If its our safety you truly care about, thank you very much, but we have confidence in our woman we still prefer them!

As a male EMT you can trust me I really DON'T want to do a delivery if I can help it. At the same time we really don't want a patient yelling at us that we have to wait for the Ezras Noshim when there isn't time to wait. You also don't want some Farfrumpt EMT sitting on his hands waiting in an emergency. I have no problem having a doula or other professional on call but with the understanding that you never WAIT for them in an emergency and you don't need an "Ezras Noshim" to accomplish this.

92

 Sep 18, 2011 at 10:11 PM Truth Says:

Reply to #86  
Anonymous Says:

HEY!!!! i sat through anatomy and physiology 1 & 2 prior to nursing classes. learned many of the same things i am learning now. but then it was taught in a more professional manner. I am very insulted you think I am "too immature for a career in medicine". I knew most of the topics before i began nursing school. the way these teachers discuss these topics and the manner in which the way the class is run would make any frum person feel this way. its discussed in such a degrading way (not to mention some of the comments from the rest of the class) that it makes me uncomfortable. last time i checked being sensitive to language and the manner topics are discussed is not a disqualification to be in the medical field.

Funny, you only seem to think that you're mature enough to handle OB class but not a single guy. Why? Isn't it possible that there are single guys whom are mature enough to handle this? We aren't talking about a guy learning in Yeshiva, this guy is in College going for a nursing degree. You make it sound like you're a victim and they are attacking you, in all actuality you're the aggressor here!

93

 Sep 18, 2011 at 10:13 PM cynic Says:

Reply to #89  
Common sense Says:

I'm a Hatzolah member as well as a member in a secular ambulance. I've had female partners and almost all of them, have had issues with lifting and other necessary skills. That doesn't mean there can't be a physically strong woman out there but by and large this is an issue.

The real trouble is you simply CAN'T have people without significant experience running a scene. It doesn't work. A woman that is used only for emergency delivery will not be getting much experience. By law you also need Paramedics at the scene of an emergency delivery and you're not going to get women to get that training just for childbirths. (It's over a year of full-time training and costs over $5,000 a pop. You also need to be an EMT first.) There simply aren't that many deliveries in the field. Any ambulance will do their best to transport before delivery if at all possible. In New Square where the whole town is only a few blocks around you could go run for a woman to help. In Brooklyn, by the time you get a woman there there will no longer be any use for her.

The absolute LAST thing you want is to have a stupid frumaker waiting for a Woman in an emergency and you know that's were this is heading.

"By law you also need Paramedics at the scene of an emergency delivery and you're not going to get women to get that training just for childbirths"
What law would this be, laddie?

94

 Sep 18, 2011 at 10:19 PM elterer yid Says:

I don't understand the whole concept why not call a goyishe ambulance in a satuation like this like we did before hatzuleh was founded was Never a real problem before

95

 Sep 18, 2011 at 10:36 PM mewhoze Says:

i think the problem is that th ewoman might think the hatzolah guy thinks of her as the women in labor stages, but a true hatzolah guy gets past that visual and goes on to the next person they save.
a real professional guy on hatzolah does not look at any of his former patients any differently than he did before he helped them.
ladies, get over it. you got married, you got pregnant, have the baby safely and in good health.
when i was pregnant and in labor i knew that multiple people would be poking at me in the hospital. i told myself this is for the safety of the baby and that got me thru.

96

 Sep 18, 2011 at 10:53 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #94  
elterer yid Says:

I don't understand the whole concept why not call a goyishe ambulance in a satuation like this like we did before hatzuleh was founded was Never a real problem before

Except they didn't show up. The entire reason Hatzolah was founded is because whatever facilities were supposed to be operating in NYC didn't work. The City FDNY/EMS system was not in existence at that time

97

 Sep 18, 2011 at 11:30 PM monseyyid Says:

Please read shevet halevi's "aseres hadibros" about women visiting male ob/gyn. To mention a few: open door, husband in the office, female nurse accompanying. Our women are over every time they visit a male ob/gyn. The amount of deliveries hatzalah makes is minimal, and regarding regular hatzalah calls minimizing the pikuach nefesh is a mitzvah, so if women will not do a speedy job as the men do it's not only assur it's negligent.

98

 Sep 18, 2011 at 11:56 PM Grumpy Says:

Reply to #80  
sam Says:

I have a solution to the problem, they should open a 24 hour emergency medical center in williamsburg and in boro park for this kind of situations and should have a ob/gen doctor available in case of emergency, no training needed, no woman needed, vehakol al bekomo yuvoi beshulem.

Unless you're joking .... your comment is the perfect representation of how Liberals think:

1) Invent a nonsense problem
2) Legislate a nonsense solution
3) Tie everyone and everything in knots trying to work around all the unintended consequences introduced by trying to fix a problem that never existed

99

 Sep 19, 2011 at 06:45 AM stamford Says:

In London Stamford hill was going on the same issue for the last 8 years hatzolah with the labour supporters and some prominent numbers of the community what went in battle with hatzolah at din torah and politics, and the pesak via rav padeve the rosh b”d was that this is agents das tora . And it is now of the table.

100

 Sep 19, 2011 at 12:23 AM Anonymous Says:

There is absolutly no reason under halacha that female paramedics cannot ride in an ambulance to handle emergencies with male paramedics rather than having to take a taxi or drive themselves. We are talking about incidents involving possible pikuach nefesh of mother and child (or both), not some wild party eating chulent, drinking and listening to Lipa CDs.

101

 Sep 19, 2011 at 12:49 AM Sol Says:

As a member I think the idea of female members for OB related calls may be a good thing but every type of scenario MUST be planned out very very very well cuz there's no room for mistakes in this business. On the other hand I think that this topic did NOT belong on any radio station, Dov Hikind should be G'benched till 120 but he has no medical experience and isn't part of Hatzolahs administration, so Mrs Freir could have discussed it with the owners of Gefen or Osem for that matter. The Hatzolah coordinators/managers always disliked and kept their distance from noise makers. I BH' delivered a few healthy babys and everything worked out well. With professionalism and tact we did everything to make the Pt feel as comfortable as possible. This issue has to be dealt with great sensitivity and Siechel. Mrs Frier Hashem should bench you and your family with lots of Hatzlocha cuz you are the best of the best!

102

 Sep 19, 2011 at 12:59 AM Nachlaot Says:

Baruch Hashem I merited being a co-founded of Washington Heights Hatzolah back in the 1970s, together with Rabbi Yehoshua Kaganoff. I was also the first NYC-EMS certified paramedic in the organization.

Shortly after its inception, due to difficulties in providing daytime coverage, Rabbi Shimon Schwab ZT”L have haskoma to permit married women to respond, under very well-defined conditions, during the daytime, as well for OB/GYN calls. The Rov took a considerable amount of heat, including from Hatzolah general, with leaders of the organization scoffing the Gadol HaDor for his decision.

Rabbi Kaganoff also published a kuntras on pertinent halachos which was also scoffed, and only years later did Hatzolah general catch on and do the same.

Let is at least record history as it occurred and not attempt to re-write it. As for the skeptics, it is great and LONG overdue in citywide Hatzolah. Washington Heights proved this decades ago.

Yechiel Spira
EMT/P (retired)
Formally Y-15
Jerusalem

103

 Sep 19, 2011 at 01:23 AM AEANDERSON Says:

"to protect the tsnius of women in labour..."

Lemme get this straight. The humra du jour among hardline haredim is that only women can medically treat women, lest the male professionals have impure thoughts and suffer nocturnal emissions,or worse (loi aleynu!).

What utter nonsense. The Rambam is likely turning in his kever over this new spate of haredi poppycock.

Oh, yes, pregnant women in labour are just so hot.... NOT! Get a freaking clue, dudes.

Oh, and this "doula" bull dressed to appear like some ancient female rite only dates to back to the 1970s or 1980s, according to the dictionary, which traces its first use to that time period. Apparently, the feminazis who concocted it out of whole cloth borrowed from modern rather than ancient Greek, thus revealing the pseudo-authenticity of their innovation.

I

104

 Sep 19, 2011 at 07:02 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #92  
Truth Says:

Funny, you only seem to think that you're mature enough to handle OB class but not a single guy. Why? Isn't it possible that there are single guys whom are mature enough to handle this? We aren't talking about a guy learning in Yeshiva, this guy is in College going for a nursing degree. You make it sound like you're a victim and they are attacking you, in all actuality you're the aggressor here!

I was saying there is a clean way to discuss such topics as the case in previous classes and there is a degrading/vulgar way to discuss these topics. This class chose the latter. Regarding single men I said I would be uncomfortable to be in the same class, especially if past experience has shown he more on the naive side of women's issues. I'm sorry if I came across aggressive

105

 Sep 19, 2011 at 07:58 AM Secular Says:

As I said in my earlier post.

The poskim hold that when it comes to Pikuach Nefesh on shabbos, it should be done by MEN who are also talmidei Chachamim, well versed in Halacha. Lest people underestimate the value of pikuach Nefesh on Shabbos (If you send women or gentiles).

Similarly here, there is a DANGEROUS precedent that may form. In so much as we want to 'preserve' the Modesty and tznius of women (childbearing or not) it will compromise Pikuach Nefesh. Either because men will say: "it's just a baby delivery get a midwife to do it", or because women in their 'piety' and exaggerated 'tznius' will refuse to have a man deliver them.

All this nonsense about women driving or strength is really childish.

In an age were women are doctors, lawyers, accountants and perform jobs as well as men there is no room for this childish chauvinism. However, women should pass the same physical requirements as men.

Ironic that so many who oppose the integration of women, have their wives as the sole bread winner.

Where was the sense of women's rights heard here and now, during the Maharat/Rabbah controversy? double standard??

Kol Tuv !

106

 Sep 19, 2011 at 08:00 AM Anonymous Says:

I am a mother, bubby & an (unfortunately) recipient of Hatzalah's help. While I can see the need for Ezras Nashim (I am an intensely private person & I have a REALLY hard time going to a male doctor) I just don't see how it can work. UNLESS it is a joint effort.

I'm not huge but I'm not 90 lb either. Hatzalah has had to carry me down 3 flights of steps to an ambulance more than once & I know it would take 3, not 2 women to lift me. Also, previous posters are right. Older men certainly move faster than older women (I know, I krich!) & younger women have family obligations. Hubby isn't home, mom is dishing out supper & a call comes? Then what? They've stayed with me (their choice) & fill out forms, get doctors & take care of the patients. They don't just toss us out the door by the ER. How can a woman leave her young kids for 2 hours? I once had an accident Shabbos lunch, a "simple" cut that needed major surgery & they were amazing. Mommy can't leave her family at that time.

Great idea, totally impractical, except under rare situations. Kudos to Hatzalah for their kindness, humor, & support. This "wimmins lib" stuff should be a thing of the past. Time to accept reality, ladies

107

 Sep 19, 2011 at 09:38 AM EMTPRO Says:

I am taking an EMT course now and would love to get involved in this project.
Anyone know how to get in touch with R. Freier?
What about Flatbush Hatzaloh? Are they in this as well?

108

 Sep 19, 2011 at 10:52 AM REALIST Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

Agreed! But the male chiropractor doesn't meet his pt's in a social manner or in shul.

Neither should the Hatzala member!!!!

109

 Sep 19, 2011 at 10:13 AM yungerman1 Says:

Good idea or not, What is her agenda? Why didnt she approach Hatzolah first, meet with the Rabbonim and discuss it with them? Why is she going on the Hikind show and proceeding without approval of the organization she plans on joining with?
Sorry, but this does not sound like a purely L'shem Shmayim issue for those women who affected, but rather a feminist ideology.

110

 Sep 19, 2011 at 10:16 AM chardal Says:

Reply to #13  
yalili Says:

I happen to agree with mr. Jacobs 100% that men are a bit faster when it comes to driving and those sort but it wouldn't be a bad idea to have woman just for delivering babies and not for other types of emergency that just my thought.

I dont know -I'm a woman and I make it from Monsey to Riverdale in 30 minutes flat... many men I know make it in 45.... Many men are not safe drivers... you cannot generalize.

111

 Sep 19, 2011 at 11:24 AM REALIST Says:

Reply to #78  
womenAreSafe&SLOWdrivers; Says:

I'M a woman & I'll be the 1st to admit that a vast majority of women are NOT capable of driving fast. They're by nature more cautious & slow than men. Whenever a car in front of me is going slow, I know it's a woman & I'm always right. Plus I've seen female EMT's struggling to lift stretchers. this is just a bad idea. And anyone who's insulted cuz of the women's equality/lib stuff, get over it & realize Hashem created us differently. We're not inferior, just different.

WOW! A female breath of fresh air!

112

 Sep 19, 2011 at 11:28 AM Yossi Says:

I dont understand this whole debate : If someone is in need for an emergency delivery at home or at work and she is worried that she will ever cross the street and meet up with the Hatzoloh volunter so why dont they call 911...The NYFD has a 4 minute response time in BP and Wmsbg. and i believe this will be much much faster then the dispatcher contacting MRS. Volunteer and wait till she drops evry thing she is doind and throw some tichel and jacket on and wait to be picked up....911 would be a much better choice for those patients....Hatzoloh is of course our # 1 choice but there are times when you want to choose the #2....

113

 Sep 19, 2011 at 01:19 PM Secular Says:

Yossi ...

you are right !

114

 Sep 19, 2011 at 01:35 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #99  
stamford Says:

In London Stamford hill was going on the same issue for the last 8 years hatzolah with the labour supporters and some prominent numbers of the community what went in battle with hatzolah at din torah and politics, and the pesak via rav padeve the rosh b”d was that this is agents das tora . And it is now of the table.

If you could make your point in English, people would understand what you're trying to say.

115

 Sep 19, 2011 at 01:49 PM Benny Says:

My wife is a full time Doola and attends child births at least once a week. There are plenty of women who refuse doolas because they dont want to face the doola after birth.
The reason that women will be embarrased to meet their Lifesaver members is also applicable to doolas..So lets stay with the old system and i agree with Yossi on Post#112 that 911 is a second option for those women..
May hashem bless all yidishe kinderlech with healthy children and easy child birth and hashem should pay back all Doolas and Hatzoloh volunteers with a kesive vchasimeh tova and Thanks a million to all those devoted volunteers who are always here for the community 24 / 7 .....

116

 Sep 19, 2011 at 02:05 PM Pre-Med Says:

I do understand the reservation people have about Female Volunteers- its a new idea and many women just wouldn't be able to do the job. But I would imagine that Hatzolah will implement a screening and training program to get the ones who are capable. I am a female, premed student. I volunteer in a hospital where I lift and transported patients who were heavily obese. I will get dressed and ready in a blink of an eye because I plan to do that one day when I get my MD and need to rush to an emergency. It is unrealistic to expect all women to qualify, but its very sexist to imply that NO woman would qualify and perform fantastically. It is a brilliant idea, and I hope hatzolah will let me join!

117

 Sep 19, 2011 at 02:27 PM BP1234 Says:

Reply to #109  
yungerman1 Says:

Good idea or not, What is her agenda? Why didnt she approach Hatzolah first, meet with the Rabbonim and discuss it with them? Why is she going on the Hikind show and proceeding without approval of the organization she plans on joining with?
Sorry, but this does not sound like a purely L'shem Shmayim issue for those women who affected, but rather a feminist ideology.

If you would have listened to the radio show, then you would know that Mrs. Freier had tried to contact hatzolah and nobody would talk to her. She also said on the show that she has contacted MANY Rabbanim in the community and not one of them were against her idea. One Dayan suggested that she start a separate female unit. She started to explore that and found that it is an expensive proposition and trying to explain to the federal government why there needs to be a separate 501(c)(3) organization would bring up many questions for hatzolah. She did not want to go down that path.

118

 Sep 19, 2011 at 03:58 PM Stan Cohen Says:

This is normally a very respectable forum but after reading some the hate that has been written I am wondering if I belong to a different religion than some of you. First let me provide testimony that this is NOT a new idea. I had the honor and privilege of spending some time a while back with Hershel Weber in Williamsburg who was one of the founding members of Hatzalah and he told me that it was always a goal of his to form a women's squad or division called Hatzeeloo. Next, as a trained paramedic having served with women the comments coming from this board and those quoted from Mr. Jacobs are hateful, unfounded, ignorant and just plain discriminatory. Allow me to also suggest that this now well publicized practice of overt discrimination is illegal and could in theory affect any funding subsidies received from Federal, state and local governments as there is no lawful basis for it - I would posit that even given cultural sensitivities you would be hard pressed to show an inability for reasonable accommodation. Regarding physical qualifications, New York State already has these in place - 2 people together must be able to lift and carry 250 pounds. - cont. next post.

119

 Sep 19, 2011 at 04:09 PM Stan Cohen Says:

Cont. from previous post. I dare say that I have seen more than my fare share of MALE Hatzalah members who were much slighter in build and strength than some very capable women I know. Unless Hatzalah is requiring that it's members exceed this requirement (which I doubt) the only criteria allowed would be to test all applicants like many other ambulance corps currently do. They pass - case is closed. Next, have you conducted official research and gathered statistics that women can not get out of the house as quick as men? Seriously? At the end of the day this will come down to adequately serving ALL of the community. We already have male and female healthcare providers (although I am unable to give ONE example of a MALE midwife). Perhaps this comes down to fear of women being theoretically able to run for board positions if accepted into membership. I don't know. What I do know is that this position is irrational, untenable and illegal. Not to mention the question which if there ARE qualified same gender female providers available where does that leave the need to have a MALE perform the same task.
Please not I have not masked my name in this discussion unlike some of the haters.

120

 Sep 19, 2011 at 04:48 PM TruthSeeker Says:

SO SAD THAT HATZOLAH CANT DEAL WITH CHANGING NEEDS OF SOCIETY, ITS ALL ABOUT EGO. THATS NOT WHAT HASHEM WANTS. THEY'RE ALL FRAZZLED RUNNING & LASHING OUT IN ALL DIRECTIONS TRYING TO FIGHT REALITY. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT SARAH SCHNEIRER A"H WENT THROUGH WHEN SHE STARTED THE BAIS YAAKOV MOVEMENT. AT THE END OF THE DAY HASHEM RUNS THE SHOW!

121

 Sep 20, 2011 at 01:14 AM Sol Says:

When each of our 4 kids were born a doola was there, it was an amazing experience each time and very comforting to have that support and the Dr's worked with them as a team. I'm wondering what type of insurance (if any) these doolas operate under. I can really call them to find out, but if they are covered, opening a separate entity (and emergency hotline eg, 718-387-BABY or 1800-BOY-GIRL 1877- KIM-SHNEL) shouldn't be an issue. I'll try to find out. Mrs Ruchy Freier deserves lots of credit for doing her part. And we should all learn from her not to be afraid to at least try to do what we can if we strongly believe in something. B'derech would have never been at its wonderful level if she wouldn't have tried. Mrs Ruchy Freier you are a real role model in every meaning of the word!!!!! Hatzlacha

122

 Sep 26, 2011 at 09:15 AM smadi Says:

I really do not get this whole debate:

1) Yes men and women are not physically equal. I am not saying that there are not some women who are as strong as some men, but in general men are physically stronger and faster. If they were equal there would be no Olympics, etc... It is a pretty much accepted fact. For some reason people are equating speed with driving. That is not how I understand it, it is talking about outside of driving, and driving part is an equalizer for just that portion of the call. As #106 said she had to be carried down 3 flights of stairs.
2) How many calls do you really think happen where you have to deliver a baby right then and there. Normally you know when you have to deliver, go in to labor, and have plenty of time to get to the hospital, or wherever your choice to deliver is.
3) Stan Cohen. How much subsidize funds do you think Hatzalah gets? Survey says 0. You know why it is zero so they do not have to worry about this type of potential concerns and rely solely on daas torah

123

 Sep 26, 2011 at 09:15 AM Smadi Says:

4) And that is the question here that no one is talking about is daas torah. She was offered and declined to go to Bes Din. If Daas Torah and the Gedolim who work on the policy for Hatzalah now will allow it, sign me up for a class. But they do not approve it. This goes back to Reb Moshe, and the Gedolim of previous generation.

Since the main concern we as Yiddin right before Rosh Hoshanna should be concerned with is following Daas Torah and not thinking we know better then the Gedolim of this generation and last. Now as other recommend if you do not feel comfortable with a man delivering your child, then make sure you can get to the hospital. We are talking about not Tznius with Hatzolah it is about life and death, and these are the questions and concerns we turn to our Rabbanim and must rely on them to expound on the Torah. We may question to understand what they say, but we cannot question them in a manner that shows we do not accept their Psak.

124

 Oct 01, 2011 at 11:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #116  
Pre-Med Says:

I do understand the reservation people have about Female Volunteers- its a new idea and many women just wouldn't be able to do the job. But I would imagine that Hatzolah will implement a screening and training program to get the ones who are capable. I am a female, premed student. I volunteer in a hospital where I lift and transported patients who were heavily obese. I will get dressed and ready in a blink of an eye because I plan to do that one day when I get my MD and need to rush to an emergency. It is unrealistic to expect all women to qualify, but its very sexist to imply that NO woman would qualify and perform fantastically. It is a brilliant idea, and I hope hatzolah will let me join!

I agree. While I've stated before that most of my female ambulance partners have had issues with lifting, it does not mean that all of them did and it does not mean they were so bad they couldn't function. I think the generalizations used are not fair and are totally besides the point.

That said this is still a very bad idea. We're talking about training a squad that will be used perhaps 10 or 20 times a year in those rare cases when an in-house delivery can't be avoided and there's enough time to wait for the "Ezras Noshim". Trust me, this is very, very rare. 90% of the time the patient can either be transported without any Tznius issues or the baby is so far along that it's not waiting for anybody.

This squad will have no experience in childbirth or EMS other than those 10 or 20 calls a year. I'm sorry but I'm not trusting a scene to someone of EITHER gender with so little experience.

You also know there will be farfrumter EMTs, or even women, who will put life in danger to wait for the "Ezras noshim" when there simply isn't time. With today's "Frumer than thou" attitudes you need to be very careful what you do or someone will twist things and put lives in danger.

125

Sign-in to post a comment

Click here to sign-in.

Scroll Up
Advertisements:
Sell your scrap gold and broken jewelry and earn hard cash sell gold today!