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New York - Hamodia Publisher Calls On The Charedi Community To Rise Up Against Religious 'Fanatics'

Published on: January 4, 2012 04:36 PM
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New York - Mrs. Ruth Lichtenstein publisher of New York’s Charedi English Daily Newspaper Hamodia, penned a scathing editorial that appeared on the front page of the newspaper today, in her editorial ‘Its Time To Act’ Mrs. Lichtenstein address the ongoing violence in Israel by extrismst, specifically the actions of those who dressed in Holocaust garb last weekend at a Motzei Shabbos rally held in Kikar Shabbos.

In her editorial, she writes, for too long the Jewish community has been ignoring those ‘Meshuga’im’ “The time has come to shatter the silence. ‘Ignoring these fanatics is no longer an option’.

This is the second editorial this week by Hamodia on this issue, but this time Mrs. Lichtenstein herself signed her name, and shares her own experiences as she coincidentally visited Israel last week.

Mrs. Lichtenstein, is also the founder and director of Project Witness   which serves to educate the public about the Holocaust and a noted author who has written extensively about World War II.

Below is the full article that appeared today in Hamodia.

It’s Time to Act

Last Shabbos morning was exceptionally beautiful in Yerushalayim. As always, the streets were full of Yidden going to and from shul, passing walls plastered with a variety of posters and advertisements.

Suddenly I noticed a placard announcing a demonstration in Kikar HaShabbos, to take place on Motzoei Shabbos.

Participants would be required to wear a yellow star and don prisoners’ uniforms, similar to what was worn in the Nazi death camps, and demonstrate against the harassment of the authorities with regard to the mehadrin lines and other similar grievances. I was horrified.

In a subsequent conversation in which I described the placard, its content and style, to a resident of Yerushalayim with a lot of life experience, I was surprised at his calm response. He just brushed it off with a wave of his hand. “Nonsense! Meshuga’im!” he exclaimed.

But this time, these “meshuga’im” overstepped the line. They went too far. What has been imprinted in everyone’s memory, with the eager collaboration of the secular media, is the horrific image of a small child wearing a yellow star, with his arms raised, and, not coincidentally, remarkably resembling the famous photo of a child with his arms raised in the Warsaw Ghetto.

How did the hands of the parents not tremble when they dressed their small child in this horrific uniform?

What does this father know about the Holocaust, about children in the Holocaust, about the significance of such a photo? Obviously, less than nothing. With pre-meditated cynicism, the fringe group to which he belongs has desecrated an iconic symbol for their own ends.

What will this father tell his son when he grows older and tries to understand how his father opted to turn him into a symbol that will haunt him all his life?

It’s not pleasant to be a chareidi in Yerushalayim — or anywhere else in Eretz Yisrael for that matter — these days. During the remainder of my brief stay in Eretz Yisrael, wherever one went the reaction was the same: “You chareidim! Shame on you!”

The more polite, well-mannered people said, “We know they are a radical minority, we know they are casting a stain on the entire chareidi community with their behavior, but why do you remain silent?”

The time has come to shatter the silence. Ignoring these fanatics is no longer an option, since they go out of their way to attract the secular media in order to broadcast their warped messages to the entire world.

I make no demands on this group, since they are not rational. The father of that child and his cohorts not only did not apologize or explain themselves, they even pledged to continue in their ways, according to secular media reports.

My demand is from us: How did we, in our naiveté, think that the actions of this fringe group could just be ignored? How did we give them a platform, allowing them to act as the representatives of chareidi Jewry?

What we desperately need is a serious media campaign to present the true position of Torah Jewry to the world. As my father, Rabbi Leibel Levin, z”l, and Rabbi Moshe Sherer, z”l, understood when they founded Mercaz L’hasbarah Datit and Am Echad, respectively, for this purpose, we dare not relinquish the spokesmanship of Klal Yisrael to irrational, irresponsible and self-serving fringe elements.

If we want to survive, if we want to merit understanding in Israel and abroad as Orthodox Jews who want to live our lives in accordance with the Torah, we must act — immediately!

Ruth Lichtenstein



More of today's headlines

Rochester, NY - Shares of photography pioneer Eastman Kodak Co. tumbled to a new all-time low Wednesday following a report that the ailing company is getting ready to... Jerusalem - Israeli society could be torn apart if disputes between ultra-Orthodox and less observant Jews continue to heat up, Israel's religious affairs minister said...

 

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1

 Jan 04, 2012 at 04:50 PM man who is proud of nashim tzkidkaniyos Says:

What is up with us men? Why is it that only the women are speaking up? (I think that they should go to the front of the bus, metaphorically speaking.)

3

 Jan 04, 2012 at 04:59 PM pupanar Says:

Great article! Boycott the badatz!, don't buy anything with there hechsher!

4

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:05 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #3  
pupanar Says:

Great article! Boycott the badatz!, don't buy anything with there hechsher!

I've done that for years..

5

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:07 PM Anonymous Says:

This "lady" --the modern term is "woman" -- speaks the truth. Women can do that, you know...

6

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:15 PM Halbshich Says:

Mrs Lichtenstein can talk. She has published a book Witness to History a book to painful to read but a must for every yiddisher house. In the middle there is a semi blank black page which is purposely left blank to commemorate the untold tragedy and unimaginable pain our nation suffered but mipnei kevod hameis will remain untold forever. She can condemn the idiots who wore the yellow stars of the ghettos and striped uniforms of the concentration camps this past motsei shabbos. Yiden were forced to wear these because they existed not because they wanted to travel seperatley on luxury buses. How many survivors are suffering because of these horrific memories? these 'heiliger' paunchy yiden in their homemade getup may have made their point but in the process they have told 6,000,000 kedoshim that their suffering is just the same. Not being able to have seperate seating on a bus is like being stripped of your family, belongings and clothes, being forced to labour in hunger, suffering beyond human grasp and death in its worst form. These 'heiliger' yiden have acheived a level of kedusha but have tortured millions in the process. They are torturers and should be wearing SS uniforms.

7

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:15 PM boroparkers Says:

when we will stand up against all wrongdoings and fanatics from the chareidy community we will join!

including skver!

8

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:16 PM YJay1 Says:

Great article. It's great to see that we are finally closing in on these meshugo'im. The only problem is, that these "zealots" don't care for the Hamodia, since they claim that the Hamodia is "Tzioni", nor do they care what the OU says because the OU "isn't frum", Rabbi Horowitz is just "bitter", Harav Yosef is "Sepharadi", etc.

Me thinks that the only way to get rid of them is to lock them up.

9

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:22 PM MAYERFREUND Says:

can someone explain what the problem is?
I don't know what aviereh they doing. They are not mechalel shabos or eat chazir or have women singing for them etc.

10

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:23 PM YossieW Says:

Kudoos to Ms. Ruth!

The real question is WHERE ARE OUR RABBONIM??????

WHERE ARE OUR LEADERS????

RABBONIM SHAME ON YOU!!

WE WANT B'DAATZ TO APOLOGIZE, to the Frum jews all over the world.

Yes a "BOYCOTT" may be appropriate until an apology comes!

11

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:23 PM Bukharian Says:

if they were only educated, they would have steeped outside there own stupidity, discrace whats going on and yet the ultra orthodox rabbeim in there own community does not condemn there actions.

12

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:31 PM David613 Says:

An old Yerushalmi man once told me "the Bedatz is like a dead body - everyone is afraid, but it cannot harm you"

13

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:45 PM yiddishe bubby Says:

what a great article and this is stepping up to the plate, we need to hear more of this. The community has been silent for too long, ignoring situations that are bad does not make them go away, we can no longer bury our heads in the sand.

14

 Jan 04, 2012 at 05:56 PM disgusted Says:

I do not believe that this is only a minority extremist fringe group this is a very large segment of the population and by being silent the leaders are in essence agreeing with their warped way of life.....I do not want to be called charedi anymore....

15

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:05 PM A nonyt Says:

When the Hamodia will write it's enough with the mishogoyim in America that protect pedophiles people will believe in hope.

When the Hamodia writes it's enough of the mishogoyim that destroy people that are getting divorced there will be hope.

When the Hamodia writes it's enough of the mishogoyim that lie to gedolim about banning the hamodia, Bina, and Mishpacha there will be hope.

When the Hamodia stops being political and writes editorial for the sake of TRUTHFULLNESS and to write what is EMES instead of worrying about image there will be hope or maybe Moshiach will actually be here already!

16

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:06 PM Halbshich Says:

Reply to #9  
MAYERFREUND Says:

can someone explain what the problem is?
I don't know what aviereh they doing. They are not mechalel shabos or eat chazir or have women singing for them etc.

The problem is people like you.

17

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:08 PM Steve Says:

Reply to #9  
MAYERFREUND Says:

can someone explain what the problem is?
I don't know what aviereh they doing. They are not mechalel shabos or eat chazir or have women singing for them etc.

We can start with Chillul Hashem, which is serious indeed. But, more specifically, you don't see spitting on a young girl because you don't like the way she is dressed as an averiah? You don't see this "demonstration" as an obscenity? The Chofetz Chaim often pointed out we need to take mitzvos bein adam l'chaverio just has seriously as those bein adam l'makom, right? My friend, your question is respectful and I do not doubt your sincerity, but you really shouldn't have to have this explained to you...That itself is a problem.

18

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:03 PM Darth_Zeidah Says:

The men responsible for the campaign to wear a yellow star and don concentration camp prisoners’ uniforms, and demonstrate against the authorities with regard to the mehadrin lines and other similar grievances (no woman could or would have hatched such a disgusting idea) have an historic precedent and defense for their actions.

They "were only obeying orders" .

The $64,000 question is who, exactly, gave them.

19

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Excellent!!! You should contact Ruchie Freier, let's DO something already!

20

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:27 PM Pipk11 Says:

One of the more fundamental and well-known teachings of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Vitebsk deals with the problem of Jews who abandon the Torah and its way of life. This is what he wrote to his students: “I only wish to distance you from that which is prohibited, and to warn you: Do not mock others, lest you be struck by hardships, Heaven forbid. More specifically, do not mock those who have abandoned the Torah… for it is quite obvious and clear to me that mocking those who have abandoned the way of the Torah is the cause of decline and destruction, for have not the Sages taught that Jews are considered God’s children no matter what? Consequently, one who derides the irreligious, in effect, separates himself from the collective community of Israel. Furthermore, he forfeits his reward in the World to Come as far as the benefits of the collective body of Israel are concerned. This is what is meant by the words of the verse, ‘I reside amongst my people,’ as interpreted by the Holy Zohar. He who heeds these words will be visited by enormous material and spiritual blessing through the merit of the Assembly of Israel, and will ascend ever higher."

21

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:26 PM shianbet Says:

Reply to #15  
A nonyt Says:

When the Hamodia will write it's enough with the mishogoyim in America that protect pedophiles people will believe in hope.

When the Hamodia writes it's enough of the mishogoyim that destroy people that are getting divorced there will be hope.

When the Hamodia writes it's enough of the mishogoyim that lie to gedolim about banning the hamodia, Bina, and Mishpacha there will be hope.

When the Hamodia stops being political and writes editorial for the sake of TRUTHFULLNESS and to write what is EMES instead of worrying about image there will be hope or maybe Moshiach will actually be here already!

Gevaldig! very true and to the point!

22

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:26 PM MidwesternGuy Says:

Reply to #9  
MAYERFREUND Says:

can someone explain what the problem is?
I don't know what aviereh they doing. They are not mechalel shabos or eat chazir or have women singing for them etc.

Since you asked, you could start with being mechallel shem Shomayim b'rabim on a global level. And that's for starters.

Burning down a bookstore involves MANY issurim in choshen mishpot.

Treating people horribly, as in the cases of spitting and other violence, represents a breach in many halachos of bein odom l'chaveiro, including being malbin p'nei chaveiro. Spitting, in particular, involves many damages outlined in choshen mishpot which are separate from the issurim.

And that's all before we talk about the violation of darchei noam. We are supposed to act in a peaceful way, and not like animals.

So basically, they've uprooted the entire Torah to protect a couple of chumrahs. And I could go on and on.

23

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:23 PM YJay1 Says:

Reply to #14  
disgusted Says:

I do not believe that this is only a minority extremist fringe group this is a very large segment of the population and by being silent the leaders are in essence agreeing with their warped way of life.....I do not want to be called charedi anymore....

Ok. You've convinced me. I for one, will immediately stop calling you Charedi. Just please don't change your username so that we should remember that you are the post-Charedi guy around, ok?

To #9, I didn't get the joke.

24

 Jan 04, 2012 at 06:58 PM bahby Says:

Reply to #3  
pupanar Says:

Great article! Boycott the badatz!, don't buy anything with there hechsher!

Bist takeh a nar. This has nothing to do with the badatz or their (notice the correct spelling) hechsher. The badatz is not part of this fringe element of lunatics.

25

 Jan 04, 2012 at 07:07 PM shredready Says:

excellent article this woman has courage but as other have pointed out where are the leaders the gedoliem their silence is scary.

do they agree, are they scared or are they so out of touch they do not know what is going on around them?

26

 Jan 04, 2012 at 07:08 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #9  
MAYERFREUND Says:

can someone explain what the problem is?
I don't know what aviereh they doing. They are not mechalel shabos or eat chazir or have women singing for them etc.

their is something I see that you are not aware off

beon adom lachvarha which even hashem cannot forgive but can on the stuff you mention if he choses

27

 Jan 04, 2012 at 07:13 PM rebchuna Says:

in her book, ruth blindly left out any mention of lubavitch, such as the escape of the lubavitch yeshiva or the escape of the lubavitch rebbe reb yosef yitzchok etc etc
she has no right to lecture anyone

28

 Jan 04, 2012 at 07:57 PM YossieW Says:

as an addendum to my previous pot (#10)
Please note this group are not a "fringe" group, lunatics or "meshiguim", they were/are part of the B'Addatz planned and organized demonstration of Motzei Shabbos. Lets call a spade a spade.

Its the B'Addatz who organized this Protest demonstartion, they are the ones that need to apologize.

The Rabbonim from all four corners of the world should comdemn this despicable act, How dare they misuse the Yellow Stars? How dare they misuse the Auschwitz, Dachau and Bergen belsen uniforms? last but not least How dare they call the Israeli Police "Nazis" SHAME ON YOU!

Ruth! dont beat around the bush, by calling these people "meshugaim" etc CALL THEM BY NAME "THE B'ADDATZ" You too are scared! WHY?

29

 Jan 04, 2012 at 07:50 PM Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

Those of us who are not completely sequestered in an tiny enclave have faced a barrage of questions and criticism. There can be excuse or rationale for the despicable behavior of these disturbed thugs. "The 99%" should not only be a phrase for Occupy Wall Street. It should be a phrase we use and display against the less than 1% of us who are completely beyond the pale.

Why don't we have a demonstration, or at least large prayer sessions, against those who willingly mock our Torah and our values by their outrageous behavior?

Why are so many of you afraid to provide your names and hide, instead, behind pseudonyms and pen names? Are we not able to do as this lady did, and stand up, publicly, for basic human decency? What do we fear?

Should we not insist that our rabbis speak about these issues, from the pulpit? Should we not educate our families and friends about how extreme and unbalanced this lunatic fringe has become, and how utterly ashamed we are regarding their disgusting behavior?

30

 Jan 04, 2012 at 08:27 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #9  
MAYERFREUND Says:

can someone explain what the problem is?
I don't know what aviereh they doing. They are not mechalel shabos or eat chazir or have women singing for them etc.

You're not being serious, are you?
Just in case someone might take you seriously, I will answer your question. These are the some of the aveiros performed by those fanatics:
1. Chilul Hashem
2. onaas devarim (abusing another person verbally)
3. kol almanah v'ger lo saanun (causing distress to widows and orphans)
3. lo sisna (do not hate)
4. v'ahavta lereiacha kamocha (love others like yourself)
5. motzi shem ra (slander)
6. kafui tovah (denying the favors one has received)
7. dina demalchusa (obeying the law of the land)
8. mesaya yedei ovrei aveirah (supporting evildoers [They were carrying signs supporting Weissfish, a convicted thug.]
9. chanifah (giving moral support to evildoers)
There are probably more, but these should be enough for now.

PS. The Chafetz Chaim (end of Ahavas Chesed) and the Chazon Ish (Yoreh Deah 2:28) hold that these issurim apply even where the victim is a completely wicked (רשע גמור). Their.reason is that one is not defined as a rosho unless he was rebuked and no one nowadays knows how to give rebuke properly.

PPS The obligation to obey the law of the land (dina demlachus appies even in Eretz Yisrael (according to most Poskim).

31

 Jan 04, 2012 at 09:04 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Sefer HaBris (Chelek 2, 13:11) on derech eretz:
וכשנחפשה לדעת אם חובת אהבת האדם קדמה או חובת התורה, נאמר שהיא קדמה אפילו לתורה הקדושה, כמו שאמרו חז"ל (באבות דר' נתן) דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה,
"When we seek to find out whether the duty of loving people or the duty of observing the Torah comes first, we shall say that [the former] precedes even the Holy Torah, as Chazal said (Avos D'Rebbi Nassan): Derech Eretz precedes the Torah."
והנה מודעת זאת לכל משכיל כי אהבת בני האדם ודבוק חברים ובטול רצונו מפני רצונם ועשיית הטוב והישר בעיניהם היא היא דרך ארץ, כי הלא זה הדרך להתנהג עם כל שוכני ארץ לעשות כרצון איש ואיש כפי האפשרי ולהדריך עצמו במנהג החביב בעיני כל אדם בארץ,
"This is a pronouncement to every intelligent person: Loving people, closeness between friends, doing what another person wants instead of what you want, doing that which is good and and proper in their eyes -- this is derech eretz (literally: the way of the world). For it is the way (derech) to behave properly with all the inhabitants of the world (eretz), to do the will of each person as much as possible, and to direct one's behavior so that it is beloved in the eyes of every person in the world (eretz)."

32

 Jan 04, 2012 at 09:05 PM boropark1 Says:

What a chutzpah the hamodia has !!!!

Even the fact I believe is that the guys in beth shamash are wrong and disgusting ! However a paper that lives on us and is providing us our news should know better then this !!!

Now is the time for the paper to stick up for us and defend all our values against the secular people in Isreal that hate us only because for what we are and they are using the ugly behaver of a few sick people to attack us all

Now is not the time to go out and attack our brothers ! Help us now to defeat the hate that is coming from all sides to us just because we are proud jews !!! And in a month from now when the whole story is death then we should all get together and condemn the ugly violent people that are not behaving like they should be

33

 Jan 04, 2012 at 09:08 PM boropark1 Says:

Reply to #3  
pupanar Says:

Great article! Boycott the badatz!, don't buy anything with there hechsher!

Interesting how you know that its the bagatz !!!!! Did you ever go out till now and condemn every wrong that you feel the bagatz had to do it ? Or you also see now how wrong we all were that we were quiet while a few ugly people played god and it went to far !!! Maybe the bagatz also see's it know but they don't post their comments on VIN

34

 Jan 04, 2012 at 08:41 PM Ben_Kol Says:

contd.
the list just keeps on growing
* mevazeh talmidei chachamim (mocking Torah sages)
* al tihyeh k'korach va'daso (do not be like Korach and his crowd, who caused strife and dissension among the Jewish people).

And perhaps we're missing the most important point of all: There was something that preceded the Torah. It was not Shabbos, it was not kashrus, it was not even tznius. It was DERECH ERETZ (defined in this context as basic decency).

contd. in next post

35

 Jan 04, 2012 at 09:11 PM woofer Says:

Reply to #6  
Halbshich Says:

Mrs Lichtenstein can talk. She has published a book Witness to History a book to painful to read but a must for every yiddisher house. In the middle there is a semi blank black page which is purposely left blank to commemorate the untold tragedy and unimaginable pain our nation suffered but mipnei kevod hameis will remain untold forever. She can condemn the idiots who wore the yellow stars of the ghettos and striped uniforms of the concentration camps this past motsei shabbos. Yiden were forced to wear these because they existed not because they wanted to travel seperatley on luxury buses. How many survivors are suffering because of these horrific memories? these 'heiliger' paunchy yiden in their homemade getup may have made their point but in the process they have told 6,000,000 kedoshim that their suffering is just the same. Not being able to have seperate seating on a bus is like being stripped of your family, belongings and clothes, being forced to labour in hunger, suffering beyond human grasp and death in its worst form. These 'heiliger' yiden have acheived a level of kedusha but have tortured millions in the process. They are torturers and should be wearing SS uniforms.

What 6,000,000 kedoshim? In a post the other day on this site we read that the mitzvah of loving your fellow Jew only applies to shomrei Torah umitzvos Jews. So all the frei Jews killed by Hitler don't count, I guess.

36

 Jan 04, 2012 at 09:13 PM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:

Reply to #29  
Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

Those of us who are not completely sequestered in an tiny enclave have faced a barrage of questions and criticism. There can be excuse or rationale for the despicable behavior of these disturbed thugs. "The 99%" should not only be a phrase for Occupy Wall Street. It should be a phrase we use and display against the less than 1% of us who are completely beyond the pale.

Why don't we have a demonstration, or at least large prayer sessions, against those who willingly mock our Torah and our values by their outrageous behavior?

Why are so many of you afraid to provide your names and hide, instead, behind pseudonyms and pen names? Are we not able to do as this lady did, and stand up, publicly, for basic human decency? What do we fear?

Should we not insist that our rabbis speak about these issues, from the pulpit? Should we not educate our families and friends about how extreme and unbalanced this lunatic fringe has become, and how utterly ashamed we are regarding their disgusting behavior?

Why do you think that not only is posting your name when making enemies online a good idea, but also a prerequisite? Should I also post my address, SSN etc?

37

 Jan 04, 2012 at 09:32 PM Paul B Novak, BP Says:

"Why are so many of you afraid to provide your names and hide, instead, behind pseudonyms and pen names? What do we fear?"

What a good question!

Personally, I have nothing to fear in this respect. בה"ש I am financially independent and obliged to no one - than than 'ה Himself.

On the other hand, dear doctor, others "hide", as you put it, behind pen names and anonymity for fear of being both censured and censored by the family, their friends (and their enemies, too) - and also their rebbes.

Loyalty and one's obedience to one's rav - as you surely know - is a two-edged sword. Primarily it offers membership of a clan or a club, if you like, which in turn offers psychological security. On the other hand, adherence to one charedi 'sect' or another also means conformity - and woe betide *any* disciple of *any* rebbe who dares to stick his/her head above the parapet.

Discipline can and will be enforced. Sanctions can and will be taken. Specific examples would be invidious, but we all know about these things.

So contributors to VIN are afraid of the consequences of giving their names. Social conformity is a terrible thing sometimes, but membership of the "clan" is paramount.

38

 Jan 04, 2012 at 09:39 PM joek212 Says:

So now Mrs. Lichtenstein is our dass torah she decides what the position of the torah is who's fanatical what chariedi Jews should and shouldn't do and who we should speak against or for she should stay in the kitchen!

39

 Jan 04, 2012 at 09:45 PM joek212 Says:

Reply to #10  
YossieW Says:

Kudoos to Ms. Ruth!

The real question is WHERE ARE OUR RABBONIM??????

WHERE ARE OUR LEADERS????

RABBONIM SHAME ON YOU!!

WE WANT B'DAATZ TO APOLOGIZE, to the Frum jews all over the world.

Yes a "BOYCOTT" may be appropriate until an apology comes!

you have chutzpa and gall to in same sentence pretend to be interested in the rabbonim's opinion "where are the rabbonim " then in the same post you write "shame on the rabbonim" do u care what they say or not??!! And the rabbonim did say rav Steinmann put out a letter pro the people who actually care about rabbonim and dass torah

40

 Jan 04, 2012 at 10:23 PM harryw Says:

Reply to #10  
YossieW Says:

Kudoos to Ms. Ruth!

The real question is WHERE ARE OUR RABBONIM??????

WHERE ARE OUR LEADERS????

RABBONIM SHAME ON YOU!!

WE WANT B'DAATZ TO APOLOGIZE, to the Frum jews all over the world.

Yes a "BOYCOTT" may be appropriate until an apology comes!

Appologize to whom and for what? Are you out of your mind? Did the anti religous apologize for attacking a chareidi boy waiting at the bus stop? Did they apologize for sitting on a frum girl last week? NO they didn't. So why does Bdatz have to? Are the re double standards here?

Chareidim don't owe anyone an apology. Its the IDF that should apologize for adopting the anti religous and very discrimenative rules.

Rabbi yosef and sons who were quick to bash the frum and to condemn them but could not find it very important to condemn the IDF and the anti religous for their despicabale acts and hate all these years against the orthodox community, they should apologize.

Get your mind clear.

41

 Jan 04, 2012 at 10:44 PM YossieW Says:

Reply to #39  
joek212 Says:

you have chutzpa and gall to in same sentence pretend to be interested in the rabbonim's opinion "where are the rabbonim " then in the same post you write "shame on the rabbonim" do u care what they say or not??!! And the rabbonim did say rav Steinmann put out a letter pro the people who actually care about rabbonim and dass torah

Because the rabbonim are quiet, thats why SHAME ON THE RABONNIM, and I will say it again SHAME ON THE RABONIM THAT WERE THERE, SHAME ON THE RABONIM THAT "We the people" have to wake them up.

Did you hear any Rabbonim cry out against Skver for attempting to kill someone?
(all they are busy with is "Video, Internet and women's clothing")

Did you hear any Rabbonim cry out against this protest on motzei Shabbat?

Do Rabbonim need a "Ms. Ruth Lichtenstein to wake them up??

and YES Shame on the Rabbonim of B'Daatz that organized this protest demonstartion.

Last but not least, to have "Daas torah" one needs "DAAS" first.

Love thy neighbor as you love yourself.

42

 Jan 04, 2012 at 11:07 PM YossieW Says:

Reply to #40  
harryw Says:

Appologize to whom and for what? Are you out of your mind? Did the anti religous apologize for attacking a chareidi boy waiting at the bus stop? Did they apologize for sitting on a frum girl last week? NO they didn't. So why does Bdatz have to? Are the re double standards here?

Chareidim don't owe anyone an apology. Its the IDF that should apologize for adopting the anti religous and very discrimenative rules.

Rabbi yosef and sons who were quick to bash the frum and to condemn them but could not find it very important to condemn the IDF and the anti religous for their despicabale acts and hate all these years against the orthodox community, they should apologize.

Get your mind clear.

Harry dear
My mind is very clear

There's a difference when hoodlums attack an individual boy or an individual girl
or if Rabbonei B'addatz organize a demonstartion (which I am ok with, they have a right to speak their mind) but dont bring Yellow stars of "Jude" and dont yell "NAZI".

If its "your" demonstration you should control your people and BEHAVE. If your people dont behave either stop demonstrating or condemn those individuals. GET IT? or do you want to compare the "Street hoodlums" with the Rabbonim of B'addaatz? do you want them treated equally?

I hope I clarified it for you. GNight

43

 Jan 05, 2012 at 12:10 AM joek212 Says:

Reply to #41  
YossieW Says:

Because the rabbonim are quiet, thats why SHAME ON THE RABONNIM, and I will say it again SHAME ON THE RABONIM THAT WERE THERE, SHAME ON THE RABONIM THAT "We the people" have to wake them up.

Did you hear any Rabbonim cry out against Skver for attempting to kill someone?
(all they are busy with is "Video, Internet and women's clothing")

Did you hear any Rabbonim cry out against this protest on motzei Shabbat?

Do Rabbonim need a "Ms. Ruth Lichtenstein to wake them up??

and YES Shame on the Rabbonim of B'Daatz that organized this protest demonstartion.

Last but not least, to have "Daas torah" one needs "DAAS" first.

Love thy neighbor as you love yourself.

So again your hypocrisy is astounding. You say shame on the rabbonim because they don't agree with you they are silent because that's what they think is the right response but you know better. You think that it should be condemned and if they disagree with you them shame on them!! Shame on you that you think you know better! Why do u need their opinion anyway? You couldn't care less what rabbonim think you decided already what's right and now shame on them for not agreeing with you??!

44

 Jan 05, 2012 at 01:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Mrs. Lichtenstein: Your newspaper has been whitewashing the truth from the outset. Now you want us to rise up? Too little too late.

45

 Jan 05, 2012 at 01:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Until the Chareidi society decides to live amongst the Goyim like mentchen, there is no hope in this area. That means not insisting women move to the back. That's where it all began. Once you demand that women not be visible or make them separate unnecessarily, yes that mean Halachicly, then you are sliding down a slippery slope.

There was a picture of the Chafetz Chaim which circulated amongst publications this summer. It was photoshopped of two women who stood right near him. I have seen that original photo. If the Chafetz Chaim had no problem sitting outside a public building adjacent to women, and the current Charedi publications do have a problem with it, we have big problem on our hands.

46

 Jan 05, 2012 at 05:24 AM GenukMishegas Says:

Reply to #32  
boropark1 Says:

What a chutzpah the hamodia has !!!!

Even the fact I believe is that the guys in beth shamash are wrong and disgusting ! However a paper that lives on us and is providing us our news should know better then this !!!

Now is the time for the paper to stick up for us and defend all our values against the secular people in Isreal that hate us only because for what we are and they are using the ugly behaver of a few sick people to attack us all

Now is not the time to go out and attack our brothers ! Help us now to defeat the hate that is coming from all sides to us just because we are proud jews !!! And in a month from now when the whole story is death then we should all get together and condemn the ugly violent people that are not behaving like they should be

Let me see if I get this right. We should turn a blind eye to blatant chillul hashem? If that is the case, what are we doing on this world? You are so hot to go after the chilloni yidden. May I ask why? Is it because they have chosen not to live a life of Torah? If that is the case, is it not the height of hypocrisy to refuse to call out the meshuga chareidim for the same offense? Make no doubt about it: You cannot claim to live a life of Torah "except" for the fact that you commit public, blatant chillul Hashem like this.

47

 Jan 05, 2012 at 05:08 AM GenukMishegas Says:

Reply to #15  
A nonyt Says:

When the Hamodia will write it's enough with the mishogoyim in America that protect pedophiles people will believe in hope.

When the Hamodia writes it's enough of the mishogoyim that destroy people that are getting divorced there will be hope.

When the Hamodia writes it's enough of the mishogoyim that lie to gedolim about banning the hamodia, Bina, and Mishpacha there will be hope.

When the Hamodia stops being political and writes editorial for the sake of TRUTHFULLNESS and to write what is EMES instead of worrying about image there will be hope or maybe Moshiach will actually be here already!

Wow. Talk about mixing milchiks and fleishiksm mah inyan shmita eitzel har sinai? Even if your statement about Hamodia is correct, this article deals with the essence of what we are here for... kavod shem shamayim. 6,000,000 died to honor Hashem's glorious name and these whack jobs and using the images of kedoshim u'tehorim to commit a massive chillul hashem. That's the only relevant point here.

48

 Jan 05, 2012 at 05:02 AM GenukMishegas Says:

Reply to #9  
MAYERFREUND Says:

can someone explain what the problem is?
I don't know what aviereh they doing. They are not mechalel shabos or eat chazir or have women singing for them etc.

Are you kidding? Being mechalel shem shamayim befarhesya isn't an aveira to you?

49

 Jan 05, 2012 at 02:15 AM Greener Says:

Reply to #24  
bahby Says:

Bist takeh a nar. This has nothing to do with the badatz or their (notice the correct spelling) hechsher. The badatz is not part of this fringe element of lunatics.

You are absolutely wrong. It has everything to do with Badatz and their hechsher. Badatz is the financial base of this "fringe". Period. Over 2000 functionaries (aka mashgichim) are employed to give hechsherim. (This number from their own publications.) The vast majority of these hechsherim are on products which require very little supervision, e.g. Bamba of Osem. We have here in EY been brain washed to insist on Badatz. They take advantage of this and extort all big companies. The essential hashgocha is done by local rabbinates or even other very reliable hashgochas. These 2000 functionaries are essentially enforcers; they put in no time - except to support these pseudo-holy events. Would you accept the hashgocha of the mafia? Badatz is the long-term problem. No badatz monopoly and this "fringe" element would have to work, or at least sit and learn in a yeshiva.

50

 Jan 05, 2012 at 08:46 AM boropark1 Says:

Reply to #46  
GenukMishegas Says:

Let me see if I get this right. We should turn a blind eye to blatant chillul hashem? If that is the case, what are we doing on this world? You are so hot to go after the chilloni yidden. May I ask why? Is it because they have chosen not to live a life of Torah? If that is the case, is it not the height of hypocrisy to refuse to call out the meshuga chareidim for the same offense? Make no doubt about it: You cannot claim to live a life of Torah "except" for the fact that you commit public, blatant chillul Hashem like this.

You get it wrong ! You as a individual should go out and condemn those guys ! However a newspaper that the purpose is to serve the community and people outside our community read it only to use it against us ! Should not help our enemies

I don't hate the secular people in isreal and I do believe that the people that hate us are the same extremist on their end like the few extremist on our side and both have to be shut out of their respective community

My problem is that in a time that the newspapers criticize us for the work of a few (and I believe that they do it simply for business in order to sell more papers) we should not give our voice to help them portray us ! We need to fight the hate from their side ! Have you ever heard the phrase "best defense is offense" don't you think a newspaper representing us most be our best defense ?

And I am sure the hamodia will not be the first time they took a position that they did not really like , and did it just because they felt it a public service , they should do it now as well

51

 Jan 05, 2012 at 10:08 AM YossieW Says:

Reply to #50  
boropark1 Says:

You get it wrong ! You as a individual should go out and condemn those guys ! However a newspaper that the purpose is to serve the community and people outside our community read it only to use it against us ! Should not help our enemies

I don't hate the secular people in isreal and I do believe that the people that hate us are the same extremist on their end like the few extremist on our side and both have to be shut out of their respective community

My problem is that in a time that the newspapers criticize us for the work of a few (and I believe that they do it simply for business in order to sell more papers) we should not give our voice to help them portray us ! We need to fight the hate from their side ! Have you ever heard the phrase "best defense is offense" don't you think a newspaper representing us most be our best defense ?

And I am sure the hamodia will not be the first time they took a position that they did not really like , and did it just because they felt it a public service , they should do it now as well

BP1
Thats exactly the problem "We the Frum community" can never be wrong".

Look, "We the frum people" MUST come out and declare, that those frum people and their leaders screwed up.

If B'aadatz (the organizers of this demonstration) would schedule a press conference and say "We are sorry we allowed our people with the "Yellow stars and striped uniforms" we apologize and condemn those that had placards calling the Police "NAZIS" we condemn those that yelled "Nazi's" then this whole thing would blow over, We/they are human and people make mistakes, a "Mentch" admits their mistakes and learns from them.

If "we, frum jews" always have to be right, so of course then "We the people" have to condemn the B'Adatz and the organizers of this demonstration.

And Yes Harry, can the Rabbonim explain their silence??? (can you explain it?) is it perhaps they are scared of the Baddaatz?? Well their silence is deafening.

52

 Jan 05, 2012 at 09:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Until the Chareidi society decides to live amongst the Goyim like mentchen, there is no hope in this area. That means not insisting women move to the back. That's where it all began. Once you demand that women not be visible or make them separate unnecessarily, yes that mean Halachicly, then you are sliding down a slippery slope.

There was a picture of the Chafetz Chaim which circulated amongst publications this summer. It was photoshopped of two women who stood right near him. I have seen that original photo. If the Chafetz Chaim had no problem sitting outside a public building adjacent to women, and the current Charedi publications do have a problem with it, we have big problem on our hands.

Can you tell us where to find the original picture?

53

 Jan 05, 2012 at 12:28 PM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #50  
boropark1 Says:

You get it wrong ! You as a individual should go out and condemn those guys ! However a newspaper that the purpose is to serve the community and people outside our community read it only to use it against us ! Should not help our enemies

I don't hate the secular people in isreal and I do believe that the people that hate us are the same extremist on their end like the few extremist on our side and both have to be shut out of their respective community

My problem is that in a time that the newspapers criticize us for the work of a few (and I believe that they do it simply for business in order to sell more papers) we should not give our voice to help them portray us ! We need to fight the hate from their side ! Have you ever heard the phrase "best defense is offense" don't you think a newspaper representing us most be our best defense ?

And I am sure the hamodia will not be the first time they took a position that they did not really like , and did it just because they felt it a public service , they should do it now as well

"However a newspaper that the purpose is to serve the community and people outside our community read it only to use it against us !"

That's rampant nonsense and you know it is, boropark1.

Properly written and suitably edited, any newspaper can be a propaganda tool לתפארת. You only have to look at VIN, which reaches a readership far, far beyond its expected catchment area.

Even the גוים read VIN and are influenced by what it reports. Just look at SherrytheNoahide, who makes no secret at all of who she is or what she stands for.

If a journal that is inimical to your views and way of life publishes something you object to write to the editor and tell him/her. Check with your local state legislature for the address of your local "press watchdog" and complain there, too.

If the (real) Nazis ימ"ש knew how to use the power of the press to influence people's thinking in the 1930s and the 1940s it should not be beyond the wit or the intelligence of a literate Jew to do the same thing now.

54

 Jan 05, 2012 at 01:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
YossieW Says:

BP1
Thats exactly the problem "We the Frum community" can never be wrong".

Look, "We the frum people" MUST come out and declare, that those frum people and their leaders screwed up.

If B'aadatz (the organizers of this demonstration) would schedule a press conference and say "We are sorry we allowed our people with the "Yellow stars and striped uniforms" we apologize and condemn those that had placards calling the Police "NAZIS" we condemn those that yelled "Nazi's" then this whole thing would blow over, We/they are human and people make mistakes, a "Mentch" admits their mistakes and learns from them.

If "we, frum jews" always have to be right, so of course then "We the people" have to condemn the B'Adatz and the organizers of this demonstration.

And Yes Harry, can the Rabbonim explain their silence??? (can you explain it?) is it perhaps they are scared of the Baddaatz?? Well their silence is deafening.

You're right of cours. All the B'datz have to do is say "We acknowledge that the MO are right and we are wrong. We've spent our live learning Torah and we are wrong. The doctors lawyers, bankers, accountants of the MO who struggle to translate some chumash understand Torah btter than we do."

55

 Jan 05, 2012 at 04:26 PM TorahJew Says:

Since the Hamodia self-described themselves to represent Torah Jews, and is asking for we Torah Jews to take action, I'd like to say: Did you know that in order to be a Torah Jew you gotta believe what says in the Torah? Do you know, without going in that zionism is against the Torah, and taking a country by force is the biggest sin against Hashem and the Torah, that the Yesod from zionism is that you could be a Jew without being a Shomer Torah I'mitzvohs chas vsholom??? And they're trying to" reis ois" yiddishkeit since the founding of the Medina?

Yes, what the Nazis did b'gashmias, they're doing b'ruchnias. And the Gemara says: Gdol Hamachtia Yoser min H'hurgoi.

56

 Jan 05, 2012 at 03:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
GenukMishegas Says:

Are you kidding? Being mechalel shem shamayim befarhesya isn't an aveira to you?

This was done by the non religious media. please blame them.

57

 Jan 05, 2012 at 03:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Ben_Kol Says:

You're not being serious, are you?
Just in case someone might take you seriously, I will answer your question. These are the some of the aveiros performed by those fanatics:
1. Chilul Hashem
2. onaas devarim (abusing another person verbally)
3. kol almanah v'ger lo saanun (causing distress to widows and orphans)
3. lo sisna (do not hate)
4. v'ahavta lereiacha kamocha (love others like yourself)
5. motzi shem ra (slander)
6. kafui tovah (denying the favors one has received)
7. dina demalchusa (obeying the law of the land)
8. mesaya yedei ovrei aveirah (supporting evildoers [They were carrying signs supporting Weissfish, a convicted thug.]
9. chanifah (giving moral support to evildoers)
There are probably more, but these should be enough for now.

PS. The Chafetz Chaim (end of Ahavas Chesed) and the Chazon Ish (Yoreh Deah 2:28) hold that these issurim apply even where the victim is a completely wicked (רשע גמור). Their.reason is that one is not defined as a rosho unless he was rebuked and no one nowadays knows how to give rebuke properly.

PPS The obligation to obey the law of the land (dina demlachus appies even in Eretz Yisrael (according to most Poskim).

Thank you for this list. now you want to tell me that all media (the non religious included) are clean from all of this and only the chariedim are violating this. Please tell me who spread all this to the public. So please go and tell this to them.

58

 Jan 05, 2012 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
shredready Says:

their is something I see that you are not aware off

beon adom lachvarha which even hashem cannot forgive but can on the stuff you mention if he choses

This is very wide spread between the non religious against the charidiem. My wife was born in the 50's and lived in Israel and she told me many times that the non religious used to hit her very often but she knew that she is in golus she took the beating for many years. so please go and tell this to them.

59

 Jan 05, 2012 at 03:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
MidwesternGuy Says:

Since you asked, you could start with being mechallel shem Shomayim b'rabim on a global level. And that's for starters.

Burning down a bookstore involves MANY issurim in choshen mishpot.

Treating people horribly, as in the cases of spitting and other violence, represents a breach in many halachos of bein odom l'chaveiro, including being malbin p'nei chaveiro. Spitting, in particular, involves many damages outlined in choshen mishpot which are separate from the issurim.

And that's all before we talk about the violation of darchei noam. We are supposed to act in a peaceful way, and not like animals.

So basically, they've uprooted the entire Torah to protect a couple of chumrahs. And I could go on and on.

Please calm down because you are a choshed b'ksheirim. You take actions of many people and some of them may have been made by non religious people and you blame the only the chariedim.

60

 Jan 05, 2012 at 01:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #49  
Greener Says:

You are absolutely wrong. It has everything to do with Badatz and their hechsher. Badatz is the financial base of this "fringe". Period. Over 2000 functionaries (aka mashgichim) are employed to give hechsherim. (This number from their own publications.) The vast majority of these hechsherim are on products which require very little supervision, e.g. Bamba of Osem. We have here in EY been brain washed to insist on Badatz. They take advantage of this and extort all big companies. The essential hashgocha is done by local rabbinates or even other very reliable hashgochas. These 2000 functionaries are essentially enforcers; they put in no time - except to support these pseudo-holy events. Would you accept the hashgocha of the mafia? Badatz is the long-term problem. No badatz monopoly and this "fringe" element would have to work, or at least sit and learn in a yeshiva.

Can you document your claim that the employeesof the B'datz are those same extremists that spend their live at demonstrations tc? Otherwise what you have written is libel.

61

 Jan 05, 2012 at 03:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

You're right of cours. All the B'datz have to do is say "We acknowledge that the MO are right and we are wrong. We've spent our live learning Torah and we are wrong. The doctors lawyers, bankers, accountants of the MO who struggle to translate some chumash understand Torah btter than we do."

Unfortunately, recent events have shown that the derech of the B'datz -- cutting yourself completely off from the outside world -- leads to a warped sense of reality that justifies all kinds of hooliganism.

62

 Jan 05, 2012 at 03:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Steve Says:

We can start with Chillul Hashem, which is serious indeed. But, more specifically, you don't see spitting on a young girl because you don't like the way she is dressed as an averiah? You don't see this "demonstration" as an obscenity? The Chofetz Chaim often pointed out we need to take mitzvos bein adam l'chaverio just has seriously as those bein adam l'makom, right? My friend, your question is respectful and I do not doubt your sincerity, but you really shouldn't have to have this explained to you...That itself is a problem.

Sorry but I don't see in this picture anything that you write about. The whole story of spitting on a girl is a hoax. she admitted to a investigator that her father told her to make up this story. Now about the Chillul Hashem please see rashi in the begining of mishpotim what is a Chillul Hashem.

63

 Jan 05, 2012 at 09:00 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #57  
Anonymous Says:

Thank you for this list. now you want to tell me that all media (the non religious included) are clean from all of this and only the chariedim are violating this. Please tell me who spread all this to the public. So please go and tell this to them.

I never said or even implied that only Chareidim are doing these aveiros? Where did you get that from?

But now that you bring the matter up, I would like to point out that there's a huge difference between aveiros done by the Chareidim (and other datiim) and aveiros done by chilonim. When a chiloni goes up to Shomayim, he can claim that he did not know any better (tinok shenishba), whereas a religous person cannot give that answer.

And please bear in mind that, by definition, a chilul Hashem can be perpertrated only by a religious person.

64

 Jan 05, 2012 at 09:03 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

This was done by the non religious media. please blame them.

A chilul Hashem, by definition, can be perpetrated only by someone who is perceived as following Hashem's wishes.

65

 Jan 05, 2012 at 09:13 PM facereality Says:

Reply to #62  
Anonymous Says:

Sorry but I don't see in this picture anything that you write about. The whole story of spitting on a girl is a hoax. she admitted to a investigator that her father told her to make up this story. Now about the Chillul Hashem please see rashi in the begining of mishpotim what is a Chillul Hashem.

You have a severe case of cognitive dissonance. When you hear a fact that doesn't fit in with your preconceived notions, you feel uncomfortable, so you make up all kinds of nonsense in an attempt to turn the fact into a hoax.

66

 Jan 05, 2012 at 09:26 PM It's Me Says:

When "Rabbi" Avi Weiss and his congregation dressed in concentration camp grab to protest in NYC the screening of "the Passion of the Christ" was there an outcry as well? I don't recall Mrs. Lichtenstien writing an editorial to condemn that at that time. I wonder what made her write that piece, is it because it bothers her the memory of the kedoshim or rather the sighting of the eidhe making a loud statement..
also it's interesting to note that ALL chreidi Isreali papers and magazines (Hamodia, Yeted, Machne H'chreidi, Mishpacha, Shah Tova, Bikhila) were showing support for the frum yidden in Beith Shemesh and all had articles condemning the secular press. but in the US we had Ami and now Hamodia taking the other side...

67

 Jan 05, 2012 at 10:19 PM Anonymous Says:

#52 - the picture of the Chafetz Chaim with women in the background as compared to its photoshopped circulated pic: http://tinyurl.com/7t532xa

68

 Jan 06, 2012 at 03:11 AM Greener Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

Can you document your claim that the employeesof the B'datz are those same extremists that spend their live at demonstrations tc? Otherwise what you have written is libel.

I never said that the employees of the badatz spend their lives at demonstations. It is their unemployed offsprings who do, living on der fotters (or shvers) payouts. Now how do you label (oops, I mean libel) that?

69

 Jan 06, 2012 at 05:39 AM PatersonMan Says:

Reply to #55  
TorahJew Says:

Since the Hamodia self-described themselves to represent Torah Jews, and is asking for we Torah Jews to take action, I'd like to say: Did you know that in order to be a Torah Jew you gotta believe what says in the Torah? Do you know, without going in that zionism is against the Torah, and taking a country by force is the biggest sin against Hashem and the Torah, that the Yesod from zionism is that you could be a Jew without being a Shomer Torah I'mitzvohs chas vsholom??? And they're trying to" reis ois" yiddishkeit since the founding of the Medina?

Yes, what the Nazis did b'gashmias, they're doing b'ruchnias. And the Gemara says: Gdol Hamachtia Yoser min H'hurgoi.

Did you ever read V'Yoel Moshe? The Rebbi expounds on the "Shalosh Shevuos" [which is Aggadah and not Halacha, and is not brought down by Rambam in the Mishnah except for the ban of emigrating from Bavel]. One Shavuah is not to go up to Eretz Israel "B'Chomah" - in force, Rashi: The majority of Jews doing Aliyah ASA ONE before Mashiach's time". The establishment of the Israeli state was done with the approval of the world -(UN) and has nothing to do with the Shalosh Shevuos. [Proof: The Rebbi did not allow his people to go/live in areas captured after '67, as he deemed this as "Chomah" since the UN does not recognize it, but he did allow them to live in pre-67 parts]. The establishment of a Jewish State in Israel state was opposed by many, if not most, Charedi leaders - but chiefly for practical reasons, as the great majority of those wishing to establish the State were non or anti-religious. Plus, not every Gadol held the Rebbi's interpretation of Medinas Israel - see the Chazon Ish, etc.
In short. E.Y was not taken "by force" , and it is not the biggest sin against Hashem. Please talk from knowledge, not from emotions!

70

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