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Jerusalem - Eida Chareidis Letter Authenticated

Published on: January 10, 2012 09:15 AM
By: VIN News By Rabbi Yair Hoffman
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Jerusalem - The letter released yesterday by the Eida HaChareidis that was signed by the leading Rabbis of the Eida Chareidis caused some serious consternation among Bnei Torah throughout the world.  VIN News asked Rabbi Yair Hoffman to reach out to his contacts within the Eida Chareidis to verify the accuracy of the Kol Koreh and to see what is behind it.

Firstly, it should be noted that the letter is authentic, and all the Rabbonim whose signatures appear on the letter were contacted.  This being said, as in numerous letters that are issued by organizations –certain requests made by Rabbonim for paragraphs and or clauses to be removed – were not honored and their signatures were appended to this version, nonetheless.

The two most prominent signatures were R’ Yitzchak Tuvia Weiss and R’ Moshe Shternbuch, and the general tone of the letter came out in support of the Sikrikim.  There was strong condemnation for those who oppose voluntary gender segregation on buses, and the extrememly harsh and violent methods of the police.

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The letter describes Shmuel Weissfish, who finally admitted to causing both bodily and monetary damages to the owner of the Spice electronics store “a respected individual.” It characterizes recent events as “another chapter in our golus, with evil Jews who are in a position of authority persecuting righteous individuals because of a deep seated jealousy of those who fear G-d and worship Him in truth and sincerity.”

It further stated that the obligation to maintain standards of modesty is even more necessary in light of the current situation “It is incumbent upon us to guard ourselves in all matters of tznius and holiness, to be extra vigilant in matters of tznius on our busses and to check the foundations of our houses to ensure that no strange influences, even those that claim to be from the chareidi community, penetrate our homes.”

The letter also characterized the media as unfairly portraying the religious Jewish community and that many of the charges against the religious were false and trumped up.

All the Rabbonim were very concerned about the daily religious oppression that is occurring.  Some Rabbonim did not want the Weissfish section of the letter put in because they disagreed with it and only signed the letter on the condition that this be taken out.  This was ignored by those who put out the letter.  The fact that Mr. Weissfish received a sentence of two years, however, was deemed excessive by everyone.

Members of the Eida believe that the spitting was isolated incident blown out of proportion and of course is “stupid.”  The rock-throwing has been condemned in the past but will not be listened to each time.  The silence of the Eida before the “holocaust rally” shows that there was no support for it from the Eida.

Privately, members of the Eida Chareidis once again reminded this author that the Eida Chareidis has no spokesman and that anyone claiming such a position is misrepresenting things.



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1

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:22 AM Ben_Kol Says:

I'm not surprised but I still feel sick.

I don't see how I can eat anything with a bd'tz hechsher. But in view of how their products permeate the kosher food industry, can anyone suggest how to avoid them?

2

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:26 AM some1 Says:

Now they have to really come out and say with signatures on this issue, right or left, if not then this was a real kol koreh and now trying to get both sides on their side.

3

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:28 AM NeveAliza Says:

Why is this a surprise and why has it "caused some serious consternation among Bnei Torah throughout the world"? Therein lies the answer. The Eida are NOT Bnei Torah. So once you've established that, it should not cause any surprise. Or "consternation". I like that. Consternation. Good one.

4

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:29 AM CampRunamok Says:

In other words, the right hand of the Eidah has no idea what the left hand is doing, both hands are basically undoing the work of each other, "freelance" individuals are basically doing whatever they want with the Eidah's name and there is nobody qualified to say anything on the Eida's behalf.

Why should anyone ever trust anything that comes out of this organization; authorized or not?

5

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:31 AM Sol Says:

It would be so much better, if the Heimishe start having real jobs. Yes, real jobs.
They whould feel much happier about themselves, not frustrated about sitting around all day doing nothing.
Then, all the protests, fights and Kanouos will stop, and they won't have to come to the USA for Schnorring either.

6

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:32 AM Anonymous Says:

I'm proud of the Eida, they are not afraid of anyone, any pressure, or media pressure or threat of a boycott.

7

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:41 AM chaimme Says:

they have just added fuel to a fire of sinat chinnum. well done.

8

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:43 AM davidj Says:

"Privately, members of the Eida Chareidis once again reminded this author that the Eida Chareidis has no spokesman"

How can they have no spokesman? This is absurd.

9

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:44 AM I told you so! Says:

I have commented before that those that are doing these despicable acts are not just a few despite the claims of our Rabbonim who've tried to play it down. I wonder how they will be able to spin this new development. .
The Satmat Rebbe is quoted as saying that there will come a time when chareidim won't be able to live in Eretz Yisroel; these chareidim are doing their utmost to make this come true.

10

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:45 AM Miguel Says:

So much for the 'few nutcases' excuse. The media did us all a favor by blowing this story up. The Eida did us a bigger favor. This is NOT a small problem of a few rotten apples. This is a large and growing issue. And it's not limited to Israel. Our women walk around like it's a big funeral every day, dressed in black from head to toe. How many steps removed from a burqa is that? probably meany, but a lot less that it used to be. Sometimes I think frum people with the capacity for thinking on their own are a dying breed. Hashem Yirachem.

11

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:47 AM indisbelief Says:

There is something wrong here -

The Rabbonim of the Eidah (official spokespeople or not) clearly know that shtikah k'hoda'ah on these issues.

They will continue to isolate themselves from mainstream Charedim with proclamations of these sorts.

At the end of the day, each individual is responsible for his/her own actions before G-d...let each Jew on every side of this turn inwards first and ask, have I perfected my service of Hashem...

Until such a day, Klal Yisrael will continue to divide itself.

Lo Aleinu

12

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:49 AM Barsechel Says:

Shame! Chilul Hashem! The Eida will have to give Din V'cheshbon fir this

13

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:52 AM Babishka Says:

This is very disappointing.

14

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:58 AM MidwesternGuy Says:

Interesting final sentence, where Edah members say that nobody speaks for the Edah.

It's just a way providing plausible deniability for any and all things. Real Gedolim stand behind what they say, no matter what, and are not afraid of saying the emes.

15

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:08 AM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I'm proud of the Eida, they are not afraid of anyone, any pressure, or media pressure or threat of a boycott.

Are you also proud of the Eida's support of the sikrkim, a mafia-type gang of thugs and vandals?

16

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:12 AM Brooklyn Bridge for Sale! Says:

"... The silence of the Eida before the “holocaust rally” shows that there was no support for it from the Eida. ..."
Let us put this in perspective ... Change Eida to Saudi Arabia and "holocaust rally" to "9/11".
Would any logical, rational human being believe that since Saudi Arabia did not say anything before 9/11, it means that they were not in support of it?

Rabbi Hoffman SHLIT"O, do you actually believe this statement, or, are you merely repeating verbatim what the Eida spokesperson (Oh! ... I forgot, they don't have any of these (and I suppose that the no spokesperson statement is true too)) said?

Even if this "statement" is 100% accurate, why can't the Eida do a M'cho'oh afterwards to show their displeasure with people who (supposedly) get their Daas Toiroh from the Eida?

17

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:13 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
I told you so! Says:

I have commented before that those that are doing these despicable acts are not just a few despite the claims of our Rabbonim who've tried to play it down. I wonder how they will be able to spin this new development. .
The Satmat Rebbe is quoted as saying that there will come a time when chareidim won't be able to live in Eretz Yisroel; these chareidim are doing their utmost to make this come true.

oy! You dont know how gevaldig you are saying!! They are trying SO hard!

18

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:15 AM MidwesternGuy Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I'm proud of the Eida, they are not afraid of anyone, any pressure, or media pressure or threat of a boycott.

HA!! They're not afraid of anyone, but they're afraid to have anyone merely speak on their behalf.

A real courageous bunch!

19

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:21 AM Crazykanoiy Says:

"The silence of the Eida before the “holocaust rally” shows that there was no support for it from the Eida."

Just the opposite. The silence of the Eidah proves that they tolerate if not encourage such rallies.

20

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:27 AM chaimme Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I'm proud of the Eida, they are not afraid of anyone, any pressure, or media pressure or threat of a boycott.

what are proud of. That this stupid organization has furthur splintered clall Yisrael........ shame on you

21

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:31 AM ConcernedMember Says:

So it's one of the two following scenarios:

1) The Eida supports violent, self appointed criminals who harm other Jews and destroy their property.
2) The Eida has no idea what's being said in their names and no power to control the text of letters released by their own members.

I challenge ANYONE here to please explain to me how any Jew can trust their hechsher. One of those two possibilities MUST be true. Either one should disqualify this group as being trustworthy. So please... someone tell me how we can trust that they are the people who should be certifying Kashrus.

23

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:40 AM YJay1 Says:

This is ridiculous. Unless they get themselves a spokesman who speaks exclusively in their name, we cannot believe anything that carries these Rabbonim's signatures, for the better or for the worse.

They need to get themselves a spokesman, FAST!

25

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:52 AM MAYERFREUND Says:

Reply to #7  
chaimme Says:

they have just added fuel to a fire of sinat chinnum. well done.

Sorry you are all mixed up. This is a real ahavas yisroel not sinat chinnum. Allot of the police (mishtara) like allot of the non chariedim are not Jewish so there is no mitzva to have ahavas goiyim. And all of the chariedim are ehrliche Jews so here comes the mitzva of ahavas yusroel.

26

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:57 AM NeveAliza Says:

A little gematria for you:
העידה החרדית = 721
ולא יכלו דברו לשלום = 721

27

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:57 AM joek212 Says:

Ok so all u people screaming for rabbonim to say something now they said what they think but your still screaming because they don't agree with you so you never really cared what the gdolim have to say you just wanted they should agree with you! Or now you are going to be mevazeh talmeidei chachomim and say that they are wrong or worse not gedolim r"l!!!

28

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I'm proud of the Eida, they are not afraid of anyone, any pressure, or media pressure or threat of a boycott.

but they won't stand up to the zealots and the hate-filled factions that cause chillul hashem!

29

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:59 AM BaalMussar Says:

LO SUGURU MIPNEI ISH this is your Torah opinion you are obligated to state it, no matter the backlash. My respect to this organization has been increased thousand fold. And it's time to take HASHEM off from being for sale, every shnook with a computer is to decide what's a Kiddush or Chilol Hashem.

30

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:09 AM AYIDVOSTRACHT Says:

The gaaved is concidered to be a moderate by the bdatz standards and he is against riots and most protests(do some research). Still he signed on to this proclamation. This shows that true Daas torah understands that we are under siege from the secular media and society as whole. He is not afraid to take a stand for the kedushah of klal yisrael.

31

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:10 AM esther Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I'm proud of the Eida, they are not afraid of anyone, any pressure, or media pressure or threat of a boycott.

too bad they're not afraid of Hashem because if they trully were they couldn't possibly condone these sickening actions.

33

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:17 AM Tell the truth Says:

No way Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov,Rav Ruderman, Rav Pam, Rav Shlomo Zalmen, would have agreed with this drivel from Rav Moshe Shternboch and Rav Weiss. It is long overdue for the rabbonim who disagree with this to speak up and to speak up forcefully and publicly against this crumkeit. This is a serious problem because it is not only isolated to Bet Shemsh or Eretz Yisroel. We have Roshei Yeshiva and Rebbes in America as well who go along with this extremism. Besides the Rabbonim that need to speak out, the Baalei Batim who support this with their millions need to put their feet down.

34

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:18 AM garyone Says:

FOLLOW THE MONEY$$$$$$$

35

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:22 AM AYidela Says:

I think its the same thing as we had by the hafguna's for digging kvurim. As we all remember how the jewish weekly magazine Der Blatt wrote that Rabbi shternbuch (ravad) had a lot of pressure to stop sending ppl to be mocha and he said he will not stop cause its against the tora, a week later he stopped cause they got a message from the guverment if he doesn't stop they will ban their hechsher in israel. And do you remember how they threw out that rabbi (I forgot his name) from the shchita cause he said it has problem's and they need to fix it. Or they didn't wanna rabbi mier branzdorfer's son to be the ruv after his father ztz"l died cause they he was so strict as his father and they where scared from him. I think the same reason the satmar rabbi didn't want his kehila should have a hechsher (cause look how hisachdes harabunim looks today) the same reason goes on in israel, when you had rabunim that wasn't in for money just for kashres it was ok. But now they got some ppl that only want money. I'm not talking about the rabunim, I'm talking about the ppl around. That why all of this happen, like one day they say do this and one day they don't do it cause it depands in the "MONEY"

36

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:35 AM A-P-C Says:

Reply to #23  
YJay1 Says:

This is ridiculous. Unless they get themselves a spokesman who speaks exclusively in their name, we cannot believe anything that carries these Rabbonim's signatures, for the better or for the worse.

They need to get themselves a spokesman, FAST!

they have no interest in a spokesman. part of their tactics is to maintain deniability if something they say isn't received well. they also like to be able to give different messages to their followers than to the public. with no spokesman, anything in a pashkevil or letter can be partially or completely denied as being the work of some evil kannoi. if they had an official spokesman, they would be pinned down to one position and lose the ability to claim they never said it.

37

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:45 AM Reb Yid Says:

First of all, the eida is not an organization as we know it. It's a way of referring to the gedolim of eretz yisroel, and particularly yerushalayim. So of course it has no spokesman, it's not really a single body. This is to distinguish it from the kashrus "division", which is of course a well-run operation.

Secondly, psak is only as good as the understanding of the metsius that goes into it. The rabbonim rely on askanim, who have their own personal interests, to tell them what's going on.

38

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Ben_Kol Says:

I'm not surprised but I still feel sick.

I don't see how I can eat anything with a bd'tz hechsher. But in view of how their products permeate the kosher food industry, can anyone suggest how to avoid them?

Yes, you can eat the shop right brand, and chas vesholem not the bd`tz hechsher. While at shop right don`t forget to visit the dvd section.

39

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:47 AM Halaivy Says:

Reply to #26  
NeveAliza Says:

A little gematria for you:
העידה החרדית = 721
ולא יכלו דברו לשלום = 721

Just do your homework and look into rashi that says this is the good part of the shevotim that they didn't talk out of two sides of their mouth.
As for the eidah they have a spokesman and it's rav tuvia weiss who sais the daas torah and would not take a spokesman / politician to water it down so those that don't agree with them should understand and agree with him.
I chalange any rov or godel to come out against this psack of rav weiss just like 50 years ago there were rabonim that came out with pesokim against the shitah of reb yoel of satmar and even though he didn't agree with them he still respected them for their opinion just like during all of our generations the gedolim respected the opposing opinion of rabonim.
I think that there is a little bit of sinas yisroel that dosn't allow some of us to understand the opinion of rav weiss. We should start loving as they are our brothers so we will understand them.

40

 Jan 10, 2012 at 11:51 AM Miguel Says:

Reply to #29  
BaalMussar Says:

LO SUGURU MIPNEI ISH this is your Torah opinion you are obligated to state it, no matter the backlash. My respect to this organization has been increased thousand fold. And it's time to take HASHEM off from being for sale, every shnook with a computer is to decide what's a Kiddush or Chilol Hashem.

Get a grip. Of course every "shnook" should decide what is a Kiddush or Chillul Hashem. We don't need a psak for something that any conscious person can recognize. Stop placing your trust in people and start having some real yiras shomayim.

41

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:03 PM samual Says:

knock it off guys. they are the daas torah. where is a letter from other rabonim that say the opposite. this is like the satmar ruv writing veoel moshe and other rabonim disagreed but couldn't write a sefer to discredit his views

42

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:04 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #25  
MAYERFREUND Says:

Sorry you are all mixed up. This is a real ahavas yisroel not sinat chinnum. Allot of the police (mishtara) like allot of the non chariedim are not Jewish so there is no mitzva to have ahavas goiyim. And all of the chariedim are ehrliche Jews so here comes the mitzva of ahavas yusroel.

No, YOU are mixed up. The support of the Edah for the sikrikim, who brutalise other yidden and damage their property, is the OPPOSITE of ahavas yisrael.

As for the police, most of them ARE Jewish (and they have the halachic status of tinokos shenishbu). Moreover, even if only some of them were Jewish, we would still be mechuyav to love them, because it's a safek d'Oraisa, and the halachah is safek d'Oraisa lechmura.

43

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:04 PM qazxc Says:

I wonder about Gd's opinion of all this. Is He pleased with anyone involved in this mess? Is anyone concerned about His nachas ruach?

44

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Ben_Kol Says:

I'm not surprised but I still feel sick.

I don't see how I can eat anything with a bd'tz hechsher. But in view of how their products permeate the kosher food industry, can anyone suggest how to avoid them?

First of, take an asperin.

45

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:14 PM anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Sol Says:

It would be so much better, if the Heimishe start having real jobs. Yes, real jobs.
They whould feel much happier about themselves, not frustrated about sitting around all day doing nothing.
Then, all the protests, fights and Kanouos will stop, and they won't have to come to the USA for Schnorring either.

Very well said and I 100% agree with you

46

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Ben_Kol Says:

Are you also proud of the Eida's support of the sikrkim, a mafia-type gang of thugs and vandals?

Can you please point out where in the Kol Koreh do they support the sikrikim? Unless in your eyes, every jew protesting toaves is a sikrik.

47

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
MAYERFREUND Says:

Sorry you are all mixed up. This is a real ahavas yisroel not sinat chinnum. Allot of the police (mishtara) like allot of the non chariedim are not Jewish so there is no mitzva to have ahavas goiyim. And all of the chariedim are ehrliche Jews so here comes the mitzva of ahavas yusroel.

"Allot of the police (mishtara) like allot of the non chariedim are not Jewish"

Are you kidding me? The police and non-chareidim are not Jewish? They would have been standing right next to you on the selection lines at Auschwitz.

48

 Jan 10, 2012 at 01:19 PM sane Says:

Reply to #5  
Sol Says:

It would be so much better, if the Heimishe start having real jobs. Yes, real jobs.
They whould feel much happier about themselves, not frustrated about sitting around all day doing nothing.
Then, all the protests, fights and Kanouos will stop, and they won't have to come to the USA for Schnorring either.

You have hit the nail on the head. What you have is a generation of bored people looking for some action. They don't learn and have no marketable skills. A man with a job and a respectable salary would not be busy with such nonsense.

49

 Jan 10, 2012 at 01:11 PM Tell the truth says Says:

Reply to #30  
AYIDVOSTRACHT Says:

The gaaved is concidered to be a moderate by the bdatz standards and he is against riots and most protests(do some research). Still he signed on to this proclamation. This shows that true Daas torah understands that we are under siege from the secular media and society as whole. He is not afraid to take a stand for the kedushah of klal yisrael.

This shows that those who you think are true Daas Torah are either 1. Not true Daas Torah or 2. Not in touch with reality. There is no excuse to defend violence, spitting,abusing people, or damaging property under any circumstances. The dressing up in holocaust garb is also absolutely and totally indefensible and inexcusable. The fact that the Eda is defending Weissfish and by extension the Sikrikim and the Modesty Squads makes them guilty as well. If Israel had a RICO Law like we have here in the USA they could and would be prosecuted for their criminal support of the various violent organizations. It is a sad day in Klal Yisroel when Rabbonim are publicly Mechalel Shem Shomayim. It is even sadder that the only people that have the courage to disagree with this Menuvalkeit are anonymous bloggers. Lets call them what they are Menuvalim Bershus Hatorah. You can eat the Glattest Glatt food,have the longest Peyos and Beard, even know how to learn, and you can still be a Menuval. Again there should be no tolerance or excusing or minimizing the behaviour of the Eda and all connected to them including BADATZ, Sikrikim, Bet Shemesh Hooligans and all the Rabbonim that support them.

50

 Jan 10, 2012 at 01:03 PM Yehuda Leib Says:

This is truly disappointing! As one who considers himself as " chareidi", these Rabbonim do not represent me. Rabbi Horowitz has a petition on line regarding the chillul Hashem that is taking place in EY. I encourage everyone that feels the chilul Hashem should sign and encourage your Rabbonim to speak out. ILet the Eida Hacharedis know that they do not represent the majority of Chareidim that still believe in Ahavas Yisroel no matter what style of yarmulka or hat or neither of the above! ONLINE PETITION: www.unitedsilentmajority.org

51

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:56 PM MAYERFREUND Says:

Reply to #33  
Tell the truth Says:

No way Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov,Rav Ruderman, Rav Pam, Rav Shlomo Zalmen, would have agreed with this drivel from Rav Moshe Shternboch and Rav Weiss. It is long overdue for the rabbonim who disagree with this to speak up and to speak up forcefully and publicly against this crumkeit. This is a serious problem because it is not only isolated to Bet Shemsh or Eretz Yisroel. We have Roshei Yeshiva and Rebbes in America as well who go along with this extremism. Besides the Rabbonim that need to speak out, the Baalei Batim who support this with their millions need to put their feet down.

There are baruch hashem a nice number of chariedi Jews that have burech hashem billions with a "B" that support them and the list keeps on growing.

52

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:55 PM Anonymous Says:

I still struggle to fingure out how it is okay for anyone to invest their time in checking out the lengths of women's sleeves or hemlines. They are not working because they chose to dedicate their lives (at others' expense) to learning Torah. Why are they not in the Beis Hamedrash learning? Someone is wasting time (ביטול תורה) and making a real public mess in the process. Can we have a מחאה against that?

53

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:53 PM RoshCham1 Says:

@25 MAYERFREUND

Realy? most of the non charedim and cops are not jews? so most of the chayalim that are not charedi are goyim? You know what forget the outragous comment for a sec, where do you get your statistics on this information or are you following the Eida's path and just pulling numbers out of the thin air? Are you for real or are you just trolling? I'm having a very hard time trying to figure this out, could be that your being sarcastic, yea thats it ill be Dan L'kaf zchus and say that your just being sarcastic.

54

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Your comment was rational for the first 2 lines. You then deteriorated into the bashing thing, with disgrace that only shows your true colors. Get a life. You can disagree strongly, but your vomiting these names and accusations reflects nothing but immature stupidity.

55

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Perhaps this voluntary segregated women don't trust you.

56

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:39 PM AviKes Says:

Two years is excessive for what he did? Maybe we can convince Giuliani to be mitgayer, make aliya and clean house here like he did in New York.

57

 Jan 10, 2012 at 12:42 PM AviKes Says:

#39, Rav Eliashiv, Rav Ovadia, Rav Metzger and Rav Lau all came out against them.

58

 Jan 10, 2012 at 01:56 PM anon Says:

Reply to #1  
Ben_Kol Says:

I'm not surprised but I still feel sick.

I don't see how I can eat anything with a bd'tz hechsher. But in view of how their products permeate the kosher food industry, can anyone suggest how to avoid them?

You have identified an important issue - we are all enabling this behavior by financially supporting this group. This would be a wonderful opportunity for the Satmar, Ger, Lubavitch, MO, etc communities to work together to collectively recognize other kashrut authorities. As long as each group insists that its own hechsher is better than others, businesses will continue to use bd"tz.

59

 Jan 10, 2012 at 02:01 PM MAYERFREUND Says:

Reply to #53  
RoshCham1 Says:

@25 MAYERFREUND

Realy? most of the non charedim and cops are not jews? so most of the chayalim that are not charedi are goyim? You know what forget the outragous comment for a sec, where do you get your statistics on this information or are you following the Eida's path and just pulling numbers out of the thin air? Are you for real or are you just trolling? I'm having a very hard time trying to figure this out, could be that your being sarcastic, yea thats it ill be Dan L'kaf zchus and say that your just being sarcastic.

please see rambam hilchos shabos perek lamed

השבת ועבודת כוכבים ומזלות כל אחת משתיהן שקולה כנגד שאר כל מצות התורה. והשבת היא האות שבין הקב"ה ובינינו לעולם. לפיכך כל העובר על שאר המצות הרי הוא בכלל רשעי ישראל. אבל המחלל שבת בפרהסיא הרי הוא כעובד עבודת כוכבים ומזלות ושניהם כעובדי כוכבים ומזלות לכל דבריהם. לפיכך משבח הנביא ואומר אשרי אנוש יעשה זאת ובן אדם יחזיק בה שומר שבת מחללו וגו'. וכל השומר את השבת כהלכתה ומכבדה ומענגה כפי כחו כבר מפורש בקבלה שכרו בעולם הזה יתר על השכר הצפון לעולם הבא. שנאמר אז תתענג על ה' והרכבתיך על במותי ארץ והאכלתיך נחלת יעקב אביך כי פי ה' דבר: סליק הלכות שבת

do you these words
המחלל שבת בפרהסיא הרי הוא כעובד עבודת כוכבים ומזלות ושניהם כעובדי כוכבים ומזלות לכל דבריהם.

now i leave it for you to explain your side

60

 Jan 10, 2012 at 02:04 PM qazxc Says:

Reply to #53  
RoshCham1 Says:

@25 MAYERFREUND

Realy? most of the non charedim and cops are not jews? so most of the chayalim that are not charedi are goyim? You know what forget the outragous comment for a sec, where do you get your statistics on this information or are you following the Eida's path and just pulling numbers out of the thin air? Are you for real or are you just trolling? I'm having a very hard time trying to figure this out, could be that your being sarcastic, yea thats it ill be Dan L'kaf zchus and say that your just being sarcastic.

87.75% of all statistics quoted by anonymous bloggers are inventions of the writer's imagination.

61

 Jan 10, 2012 at 02:16 PM moshe1 Says:

COULD SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP ME...

Mehadrin buses is a few years old it started after the chariedim made their own private bus company after being sued by Eged bus co. they came to an agreement that the chreidim will close their bus co and Eged will open Mehadrin buses.
Now you have these liberal-left -feminist losers from other neighborhoods and trying to teach the chariedim what and how to to be losers like them.

AND NOW "THEY" SHOULD TEACH THE CHREIDIM A LESSON IN AHAVAS YISREAL????

62

 Jan 10, 2012 at 02:19 PM Oy Rebbe! Says:

How I miss the Lubavitcher Rebbe zya!!!! The Rebbe had encouraged the old minhag as is printed in the siddur to say before davening shacaharis :Haraini Mekabel Alai Mitzvas Asai Shel Viahavta Liraiacha Kamoicha!

63

 Jan 10, 2012 at 02:37 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #41  
samual Says:

knock it off guys. they are the daas torah. where is a letter from other rabonim that say the opposite. this is like the satmar ruv writing veoel moshe and other rabonim disagreed but couldn't write a sefer to discredit his views

Sure they wrote sefarim to discredit his views. For example, "Eim HaBanim Semeichah", which refutes every single on of VaYoel Moshe's arguments before it was even written.

64

 Jan 10, 2012 at 02:59 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

Can you please point out where in the Kol Koreh do they support the sikrikim? Unless in your eyes, every jew protesting toaves is a sikrik.

The kol korei refers to someone going to jail for 2 years. Well, they mean Shmuel Weissfish, a leading sikrik, who is being jailed for beating up a yid and vandalizing his store.

65

 Jan 10, 2012 at 03:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
NeveAliza Says:

A little gematria for you:
העידה החרדית = 721
ולא יכלו דברו לשלום = 721

& the gematria of NeveAliza is......
is NOT ahavat yisarel, & NOT ahavat chinom!

66

 Jan 10, 2012 at 02:52 PM Ben_Kol Says:

This may come as a great shock and surprise to you, but, in fact, I do not eat pork.

67

 Jan 10, 2012 at 02:54 PM Miguel Says:

The onus is now on any rov or Rosh Hayeshiva with a congregation or followers to once and for all publicly denounce the eida and all of it's followers. Otherwise the blood of your brothers is on your hands as well. The people who go off the derech because of things like this is your and our responsibility. I can certainy understand someone who is not well grounded hashkafawise (most people actually) seeign something like this and saying, this is not for me. Klal Yisrael! This is who your leaders are?! Ribbono shel olam! Stand up and take action! Implore your rabbonim to speak out! Hashem Yirachem.

68

 Jan 10, 2012 at 03:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

Can you please point out where in the Kol Koreh do they support the sikrikim? Unless in your eyes, every jew protesting toaves is a sikrik.

They are supporting the sikirikim who were arrested. Read the kol koreh.

69

 Jan 10, 2012 at 03:33 PM oiber-chacham Says:

i realy don't know why we are all taking the AIDA HACHREIDIS so seriously ?,the fact is that they represent a very small percentage of the chareidi community in Jerusalem,they are not recognized by GER,BELZ,VIZNITS,and all the rest of the chasidishe courts that belong to the AGUDAH,because they have their own BEIS DIN,and of course they are not recognized by the so called YESHIVISH community,and neither does the SEFARDI community have anything to do with them,
it is the TOLDOS AHRON and SATMAR and some of the BRESLEVER, and the NETUREI KARTA crazies whom they represent,basically they are completely irrelevant to the lives of the vast majority of the CHAREIDIM in Jerusalem,
In reality what's left of the AIDAH,is only an impressive multi million dollar HASHGACHA business.
and with outrageous statements like this,they make themselves more and more irrelevant each and every day

70

 Jan 10, 2012 at 03:33 PM chaimme Says:

Reply to #62  
Oy Rebbe! Says:

How I miss the Lubavitcher Rebbe zya!!!! The Rebbe had encouraged the old minhag as is printed in the siddur to say before davening shacaharis :Haraini Mekabel Alai Mitzvas Asai Shel Viahavta Liraiacha Kamoicha!

I am far from a chabadnik but you are so correct. I never really understood until now what it meant to be living in a dor yosom

71

 Jan 10, 2012 at 03:34 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #59  
MAYERFREUND Says:

please see rambam hilchos shabos perek lamed

השבת ועבודת כוכבים ומזלות כל אחת משתיהן שקולה כנגד שאר כל מצות התורה. והשבת היא האות שבין הקב"ה ובינינו לעולם. לפיכך כל העובר על שאר המצות הרי הוא בכלל רשעי ישראל. אבל המחלל שבת בפרהסיא הרי הוא כעובד עבודת כוכבים ומזלות ושניהם כעובדי כוכבים ומזלות לכל דבריהם. לפיכך משבח הנביא ואומר אשרי אנוש יעשה זאת ובן אדם יחזיק בה שומר שבת מחללו וגו'. וכל השומר את השבת כהלכתה ומכבדה ומענגה כפי כחו כבר מפורש בקבלה שכרו בעולם הזה יתר על השכר הצפון לעולם הבא. שנאמר אז תתענג על ה' והרכבתיך על במותי ארץ והאכלתיך נחלת יעקב אביך כי פי ה' דבר: סליק הלכות שבת

do you these words
המחלל שבת בפרהסיא הרי הוא כעובד עבודת כוכבים ומזלות ושניהם כעובדי כוכבים ומזלות לכל דבריהם.

now i leave it for you to explain your side

Easy. Any Jew raised without knowledge of Shabbos is a tinok shenishbah, and we are obligated to love him just like any other Jew.

72

 Jan 10, 2012 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
samual Says:

knock it off guys. they are the daas torah. where is a letter from other rabonim that say the opposite. this is like the satmar ruv writing veoel moshe and other rabonim disagreed but couldn't write a sefer to discredit his views

Read eim habannim semecha and hatkufah hgedola. trying finding them in a mocher seforim. Worth reading before making comments that are simply false. i look forward to your blog after you have completed both seforim.

73

 Jan 10, 2012 at 03:42 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

First of, take an asperin.

Thank you very much for your heartfelt concern. But you don't need to worry. I am already feeling much better, having read the comments of Rav Rafael Zar posted by VIN at 2:47 p.m. blasting the anti-Torah sikrikim.

74

 Jan 10, 2012 at 03:55 PM sane Says:

Reply to #51  
MAYERFREUND Says:

There are baruch hashem a nice number of chariedi Jews that have burech hashem billions with a "B" that support them and the list keeps on growing.

So why do they all come here to schnorr if they got so many billions?

75

 Jan 10, 2012 at 04:30 PM MAYERFREUND Says:

Reply to #71  
Ben_Kol Says:

Easy. Any Jew raised without knowledge of Shabbos is a tinok shenishbah, and we are obligated to love him just like any other Jew.

Sorry but you are contradicting yourself the word "tinok shenishbah" means that he is/was between gentiles and was raised without knowledge of Shabbos. You can't say that in Israel they don't know any thing about Shabbos.

76

 Jan 10, 2012 at 04:48 PM CampRunamok Says:

Reply to #41  
samual Says:

knock it off guys. they are the daas torah. where is a letter from other rabonim that say the opposite. this is like the satmar ruv writing veoel moshe and other rabonim disagreed but couldn't write a sefer to discredit his views

Rabbonim HAVE written books refuting VaYoel Moshe. Others have already highlighted them. Meanwhile, the events and facts that have emerged in the 50 years since the S"R's magnum opus have shown him to have been horribly wrong. Compare the number of Jews dying violent deaths at the hands of anti-semite goyim in the 60 years BEFORE WW2 (at least a quarter million) and during the entire time the Medina has existed (less than 20,000; more have died in automobile accidents). And consider the Rebbe's admonition to abandon the Medina and depend on the UN to protect Jews from violent attacks. The UN's record in Yugoslavia, Rwanda and Congo/Zaire over the last quarter century puts the lie to that notion. I'm sorry to say but the Rebbe's "das torah" has run in opposition to common sense and common sense has won. The same needs to be said of the Eidah today; especially when they publish such risible dissembling.

77

 Jan 10, 2012 at 04:15 PM momk Says:

Reply to #60  
qazxc Says:

87.75% of all statistics quoted by anonymous bloggers are inventions of the writer's imagination.

And your source for this is..........?

LOL

78

 Jan 10, 2012 at 05:24 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #75  
MAYERFREUND Says:

Sorry but you are contradicting yourself the word "tinok shenishbah" means that he is/was between gentiles and was raised without knowledge of Shabbos. You can't say that in Israel they don't know any thing about Shabbos.

You're wrong again. The Chazon Ish says explicitly that the designation of tinok shenishbah applies to any person raised in a non-frum enviroment, even if (as in Israel) he is aware of Shabbos.

79

 Jan 10, 2012 at 05:36 PM Ben Says:

I don't get it.
It seems that VIN did a pretty responsible thing in asking someone to attrmpt to authenticate the Kol Koreh in question.
A whole article is written which basically says that the Rabbonim of the Eidah signed the Kol Koreh on condition that the parts that seemingly lent support to the Sikrikim were taken out.
Tjis makes sense since everyone 5 year old boy in Yerushalayim knows that the Sikrikim do not get along with the wider B'datz.
Then we have several dozen commenters condeming the Badatz for supporting the Sikrikim.
It seems to me that all the commentors really have to read over the article.

80

 Jan 10, 2012 at 05:43 PM Ben Says:

As for Tinokes Shenishba.
You all are aware that it is at best a machlokes if Frei Yidden in EY are considered in that category.
Rav Shlomo Zlaman Aurbach zt"l (yes that one who was renowned for his Ahavas Yisroel for every jew) held that since Torah is so readily availible to anyone who wans to know it EY and they all are aware of the mitzvos the category of TS cannot be applied to them.
But I am sure that many members of this board are qualified to argue with Rav Shlomo Zalman on Halachic matters.

81

 Jan 10, 2012 at 06:06 PM BaalMussar Says:

Reply to #40  
Miguel Says:

Get a grip. Of course every "shnook" should decide what is a Kiddush or Chillul Hashem. We don't need a psak for something that any conscious person can recognize. Stop placing your trust in people and start having some real yiras shomayim.

Than why does the RAMBAM need to state all the terms of Kiddush Hashem?
Obviously every shnook cannot decide.

82

 Jan 10, 2012 at 08:13 PM sechelhayusher Says:

as to all of you bashing of the leaders of eEidah, making them to low-ilfes people you can't listen to there daas torah.
to your info do you know that every rav that poskens choshen mishpat uses the psokem in 10 volume seforim of REB YAKOV BLAU, that almost every charedi mikvah in current days is built acccording to REB MEIR BRANSDOFERs psokim, biker cholim hospital and hatzolah yerushlayim was under supervission of REB MOSHE HALBERSTAM, tons of heimishe houses are filled with REB MOSHE STERBUCHs teshuvos as well as every halacha sefer that comes out quaots his words, every litvish yid in beis shemesh leans and depends on REB NUSEN KOPSHITZ, do you know who was rav in gur shtinbel in antwerp and poskened for all antwerp especially for the ger belz wiznitz and modern crowd not kanoim well thats REB TOVIA WEIS,
SO GET YOUR FACTS WHO KLAL YISROEL CONSIDERS AS LOW LIFES OR GEDOLIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

83

 Jan 10, 2012 at 08:32 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #80  
Ben Says:

As for Tinokes Shenishba.
You all are aware that it is at best a machlokes if Frei Yidden in EY are considered in that category.
Rav Shlomo Zlaman Aurbach zt"l (yes that one who was renowned for his Ahavas Yisroel for every jew) held that since Torah is so readily availible to anyone who wans to know it EY and they all are aware of the mitzvos the category of TS cannot be applied to them.
But I am sure that many members of this board are qualified to argue with Rav Shlomo Zalman on Halachic matters.

The Chazon Ish is certainly qualified to argue and he paskened that secular Israelis are tinokos shenishbu.

If it is a machlokes, let's be machmir as we are with most machlokesen in dinim d'Oraisa. We should be as zohir in the mitzvah of ahavas Yisrael we are in the mitzvos of kashrus, shabbos, and tznius.

Another point must be made here:
The Chafetz Chaim (Marganisa Tava, end of Ahavas Chesed) and the Chazon Ish (Yoreh Deah 2:28) hold that no one can be consider a rosho unless he was rebuked and persisted in his evil. Nowadays, however, no one knows how to give rebuke properly. Therefore, these Gedolim pasken that it is assur to hate even the completely wicked (רשע גמור) and it is a mitzvah to love them.

84

 Jan 10, 2012 at 09:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
sechelhayusher Says:

as to all of you bashing of the leaders of eEidah, making them to low-ilfes people you can't listen to there daas torah.
to your info do you know that every rav that poskens choshen mishpat uses the psokem in 10 volume seforim of REB YAKOV BLAU, that almost every charedi mikvah in current days is built acccording to REB MEIR BRANSDOFERs psokim, biker cholim hospital and hatzolah yerushlayim was under supervission of REB MOSHE HALBERSTAM, tons of heimishe houses are filled with REB MOSHE STERBUCHs teshuvos as well as every halacha sefer that comes out quaots his words, every litvish yid in beis shemesh leans and depends on REB NUSEN KOPSHITZ, do you know who was rav in gur shtinbel in antwerp and poskened for all antwerp especially for the ger belz wiznitz and modern crowd not kanoim well thats REB TOVIA WEIS,
SO GET YOUR FACTS WHO KLAL YISROEL CONSIDERS AS LOW LIFES OR GEDOLIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KI HASHOICHAD YEAVEIR EINEI CHACHUMIM VIYSALEIF DIVREI TZADIKIM.
Not only it makes common cense, its a befeirishe pusik, and yet we see it in eideh how all the rabunim changes, you are describing it wounderful how they were, and how they are today.

85

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:44 PM AYIDVOSTRACHT Says:

Reply to #84  
Anonymous Says:

KI HASHOICHAD YEAVEIR EINEI CHACHUMIM VIYSALEIF DIVREI TZADIKIM.
Not only it makes common cense, its a befeirishe pusik, and yet we see it in eideh how all the rabunim changes, you are describing it wounderful how they were, and how they are today.

Either you can hold to your opinion because that's the cultural moral opinion, or you can try to understand the Gedolim that WERE and you will see that they STILL ARE gedolim. They have the courage to speak the truth even though it might not be what the majority wants to hear.

86

 Jan 10, 2012 at 10:24 PM brooklynjew Says:

Being the last to comment here, I could clearly see that some of you havnt read the kol koreh properly...
Let me explain: if you read carefully you will notice that there is nothing in there that we should disagree about, and here is why...
It says that they the chilonim want to abolish the mehadrin buses which has run for a long time and that we should fight it...do any of you disagree? And if you do, then why? Why should one chiloni trouble maker who dosnt want to sit in the back be able to create a firestorm and be able to undo what has been running for years to the satisfaction of 99.9 percent of those passengers...
#2 the statement that we are in exile and this is part of it, no disagreement there, we already know that as long as you have jews fighting extra stridengies in kedusha we are in galus indeed...
#3 there is no mention of condoning spitting on people, which is a good thing...
#4 the weissfish part was clearly disputed by some of the undersigned, and judging by how they have written it, you can be assured that this is what happened, a few askanim came in and told them that this weisfish is mamash a chushiva yungerman and is being thrown in jail for no reason, don't forget the sikrikim group have no badges nor do they register as sikrikim, they are adults with backrounds from many groups etc. and to the average person the seem just a little overzealous, that's all, but nothing of any danger, and this how this was presented to the rabunim...
Most people are confused and do not distinguish what had happened here...
#1 a irresponsible individual to say the least spit on a little girl,few months ago
#2 people mainly youngsters demonstrate every day the modern orthodox school in their neighborhood, beit shemesh
#3 sikrikim damage property and fight with people in mainly in yerushalayim meah shearim, as well as in bait shemesh
#4 signs were put up in bait shemesh separating sidewalks in frum neiborhoods with consent of local community
#5 thousands of charaidim travel the mehadrin segregated busses for past few years to the satisfaction of both men and women
#6 chilonim took naama as a cover girl to incite againts everything chareidi, the busses, the signs,
Where they went wrong is that, they have no right to fight segregated buses because of what happened as an isolated spitting event...
Most important to remember:
Rabbies of the eida hacharaidies, are enourmous talmidei chachamim as are other rabbies which they have a right to disagree with, and these eida rabbis would any day be m'kadesh shem shamayim and are moiser nefesh on any kitzoi she'll yud, as any of our vin readers, so please put aside your anger and read between the lines...eizahu chacham hameivin davar mitich davar..besides even if we don't understand, so be it, let yourself be m'vatel to daas torah, that dosnt say that you shouldn't follow your own rabbis p'sak, only don't talk against the very rabunim who in their merit our generation relies on... PLEASE PARDON MY ENGLISH my spell check was in a rush...thnx

87

 Jan 11, 2012 at 02:53 AM JewsForZionism_com Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I'm proud of the Eida, they are not afraid of anyone, any pressure, or media pressure or threat of a boycott.

There is a reason why the Chazon Ish was not part of the Eidah Charedit. There is no reason to be proud of such an organization that doesnt cherish bein adom l'chaveiro over bein adam l'makom.

88

 Jan 11, 2012 at 03:16 AM JewsForZion Says:

Reply to #86  
brooklynjew Says:

Being the last to comment here, I could clearly see that some of you havnt read the kol koreh properly...
Let me explain: if you read carefully you will notice that there is nothing in there that we should disagree about, and here is why...
It says that they the chilonim want to abolish the mehadrin buses which has run for a long time and that we should fight it...do any of you disagree? And if you do, then why? Why should one chiloni trouble maker who dosnt want to sit in the back be able to create a firestorm and be able to undo what has been running for years to the satisfaction of 99.9 percent of those passengers...
#2 the statement that we are in exile and this is part of it, no disagreement there, we already know that as long as you have jews fighting extra stridengies in kedusha we are in galus indeed...
#3 there is no mention of condoning spitting on people, which is a good thing...
#4 the weissfish part was clearly disputed by some of the undersigned, and judging by how they have written it, you can be assured that this is what happened, a few askanim came in and told them that this weisfish is mamash a chushiva yungerman and is being thrown in jail for no reason, don't forget the sikrikim group have no badges nor do they register as sikrikim, they are adults with backrounds from many groups etc. and to the average person the seem just a little overzealous, that's all, but nothing of any danger, and this how this was presented to the rabunim...
Most people are confused and do not distinguish what had happened here...
#1 a irresponsible individual to say the least spit on a little girl,few months ago
#2 people mainly youngsters demonstrate every day the modern orthodox school in their neighborhood, beit shemesh
#3 sikrikim damage property and fight with people in mainly in yerushalayim meah shearim, as well as in bait shemesh
#4 signs were put up in bait shemesh separating sidewalks in frum neiborhoods with consent of local community
#5 thousands of charaidim travel the mehadrin segregated busses for past few years to the satisfaction of both men and women
#6 chilonim took naama as a cover girl to incite againts everything chareidi, the busses, the signs,
Where they went wrong is that, they have no right to fight segregated buses because of what happened as an isolated spitting event...
Most important to remember:
Rabbies of the eida hacharaidies, are enourmous talmidei chachamim as are other rabbies which they have a right to disagree with, and these eida rabbis would any day be m'kadesh shem shamayim and are moiser nefesh on any kitzoi she'll yud, as any of our vin readers, so please put aside your anger and read between the lines...eizahu chacham hameivin davar mitich davar..besides even if we don't understand, so be it, let yourself be m'vatel to daas torah, that dosnt say that you shouldn't follow your own rabbis p'sak, only don't talk against the very rabunim who in their merit our generation relies on... PLEASE PARDON MY ENGLISH my spell check was in a rush...thnx

Yes I disagree! Mehadrin buses are simply a chumrah that cannot and should not be forced upon people who dont wish to follow something with no halachik basis whatsoever. Rav Moshe Feinstein made clear that its muttar for men and women to sit together. Ask Miriam Shear what she thinks of these bus lines.She was severely beaten for not moving to the back of the bus. This is a very good reason not to have them. There is simply no need for it. Charedim have to stop applying their chumros on everyone else.

About the modern orthodox school in Beit Shemesh, I live in Beit Shemesh and I could tell you that the Chredi neighborhood was constructed right next to a Modern section of Beit Shemesh. The school wouldnt be in a charedi neighborhood if they didnt decide to build their buildings right up to where the modern orthodox schools are. But going back to my previous comment many Charedim have a thing with demanding that others follow their chumros. They knew pretty well that when they moved into the neighborhood that there was a modern orthodox neighborhood immediately across the street from them that has been there for twenty years already. We are turning into the Jews of Bayis Sheni!

89

 Jan 11, 2012 at 08:02 AM TmboT Says:

How can "the Eida Chareidis has no spokesman and that anyone claiming such a position is misrepresenting things."? If this is true, how would they annouce a genuine Kashrut problem?

When a Kashrut Authority Licenses a restaurant, one of the things they do is look at if the owner is Shomer Shabbat. If the Eida are publically supporting people who are openly Chillul Shabbat (stone throwing, causing fires, endangering lives, etc) this must raise serious questions about the Kashrut standard levels of that Authority?

90

 Jan 11, 2012 at 08:29 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #86  
brooklynjew Says:

Being the last to comment here, I could clearly see that some of you havnt read the kol koreh properly...
Let me explain: if you read carefully you will notice that there is nothing in there that we should disagree about, and here is why...
It says that they the chilonim want to abolish the mehadrin buses which has run for a long time and that we should fight it...do any of you disagree? And if you do, then why? Why should one chiloni trouble maker who dosnt want to sit in the back be able to create a firestorm and be able to undo what has been running for years to the satisfaction of 99.9 percent of those passengers...
#2 the statement that we are in exile and this is part of it, no disagreement there, we already know that as long as you have jews fighting extra stridengies in kedusha we are in galus indeed...
#3 there is no mention of condoning spitting on people, which is a good thing...
#4 the weissfish part was clearly disputed by some of the undersigned, and judging by how they have written it, you can be assured that this is what happened, a few askanim came in and told them that this weisfish is mamash a chushiva yungerman and is being thrown in jail for no reason, don't forget the sikrikim group have no badges nor do they register as sikrikim, they are adults with backrounds from many groups etc. and to the average person the seem just a little overzealous, that's all, but nothing of any danger, and this how this was presented to the rabunim...
Most people are confused and do not distinguish what had happened here...
#1 a irresponsible individual to say the least spit on a little girl,few months ago
#2 people mainly youngsters demonstrate every day the modern orthodox school in their neighborhood, beit shemesh
#3 sikrikim damage property and fight with people in mainly in yerushalayim meah shearim, as well as in bait shemesh
#4 signs were put up in bait shemesh separating sidewalks in frum neiborhoods with consent of local community
#5 thousands of charaidim travel the mehadrin segregated busses for past few years to the satisfaction of both men and women
#6 chilonim took naama as a cover girl to incite againts everything chareidi, the busses, the signs,
Where they went wrong is that, they have no right to fight segregated buses because of what happened as an isolated spitting event...
Most important to remember:
Rabbies of the eida hacharaidies, are enourmous talmidei chachamim as are other rabbies which they have a right to disagree with, and these eida rabbis would any day be m'kadesh shem shamayim and are moiser nefesh on any kitzoi she'll yud, as any of our vin readers, so please put aside your anger and read between the lines...eizahu chacham hameivin davar mitich davar..besides even if we don't understand, so be it, let yourself be m'vatel to daas torah, that dosnt say that you shouldn't follow your own rabbis p'sak, only don't talk against the very rabunim who in their merit our generation relies on... PLEASE PARDON MY ENGLISH my spell check was in a rush...thnx

May i write after you???
Who gave you the information that people came in to these rabbies and didn't tell the true story??
It looks like you are trying very hard to answer them, and you will do it even it has no pshat.
So don't blow up new stories, leave it as it is, like alot of commentors said, they are still trying to show that they could fight without being in agudeh, and trying to show that chareidim is very difficult to live there.
We are not buying this junk.

91

 Jan 11, 2012 at 09:17 AM brooklynjew Says:

Reply to #88  
JewsForZion Says:

Yes I disagree! Mehadrin buses are simply a chumrah that cannot and should not be forced upon people who dont wish to follow something with no halachik basis whatsoever. Rav Moshe Feinstein made clear that its muttar for men and women to sit together. Ask Miriam Shear what she thinks of these bus lines.She was severely beaten for not moving to the back of the bus. This is a very good reason not to have them. There is simply no need for it. Charedim have to stop applying their chumros on everyone else.

About the modern orthodox school in Beit Shemesh, I live in Beit Shemesh and I could tell you that the Chredi neighborhood was constructed right next to a Modern section of Beit Shemesh. The school wouldnt be in a charedi neighborhood if they didnt decide to build their buildings right up to where the modern orthodox schools are. But going back to my previous comment many Charedim have a thing with demanding that others follow their chumros. They knew pretty well that when they moved into the neighborhood that there was a modern orthodox neighborhood immediately across the street from them that has been there for twenty years already. We are turning into the Jews of Bayis Sheni!

There is nothing in my comment which contradicts yours, clearly the segregation is a chumrah and nobody is forcing it being implemented on ordinary bus routes, the only buses that have them are the ones operating in charaidy neighborhoods who's buses are packed with 98 percent of charaidim who's women are not only willing to sit separate but prefer to do so, so why give in to one chilonit who comes on bus and picks a fight because she feels discriminated against, I think you would agree if one girl in class makes a fuss about something which the other 25 girls of the class don't care about, you don't change the rules for the entire class, rather explain to the one who's having a problem in a nice way that this is what it is...

#2 it is clear that the handling of both stories weather in bait shemesh or bus routes could be handled differently, and more professionally, and behind the scenes all things even something as a segregated bus route is usualy always being accomplished in a civilized manor, however chilonim have no right to punish an entire group for stupidity committed by a few...
And certainly have no right to use little naama as incitement against the chareidi community...
That's all there is to it...

92

 Jan 11, 2012 at 09:32 AM brooklynjew Says:

Reply to #90  
Anonymous Says:

May i write after you???
Who gave you the information that people came in to these rabbies and didn't tell the true story??
It looks like you are trying very hard to answer them, and you will do it even it has no pshat.
So don't blow up new stories, leave it as it is, like alot of commentors said, they are still trying to show that they could fight without being in agudeh, and trying to show that chareidim is very difficult to live there.
We are not buying this junk.

I clearly don't know for sure what happened inside the eideh chambers but I only did what is expected of every jew, judge favorably when you don't know, say chaza"l, and this applies even when subjects are ignoramouses, how much more so is this applicable when talking about talmidi chachamim of enormous stature...

93

 Jan 11, 2012 at 09:34 AM MAYERFREUND Says:

Reply to #78  
Ben_Kol Says:

You're wrong again. The Chazon Ish says explicitly that the designation of tinok shenishbah applies to any person raised in a non-frum enviroment, even if (as in Israel) he is aware of Shabbos.

This is a big sheker he never said that.

94

 Jan 11, 2012 at 09:53 AM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #86  
brooklynjew Says:

Being the last to comment here, I could clearly see that some of you havnt read the kol koreh properly...
Let me explain: if you read carefully you will notice that there is nothing in there that we should disagree about, and here is why...
It says that they the chilonim want to abolish the mehadrin buses which has run for a long time and that we should fight it...do any of you disagree? And if you do, then why? Why should one chiloni trouble maker who dosnt want to sit in the back be able to create a firestorm and be able to undo what has been running for years to the satisfaction of 99.9 percent of those passengers...
#2 the statement that we are in exile and this is part of it, no disagreement there, we already know that as long as you have jews fighting extra stridengies in kedusha we are in galus indeed...
#3 there is no mention of condoning spitting on people, which is a good thing...
#4 the weissfish part was clearly disputed by some of the undersigned, and judging by how they have written it, you can be assured that this is what happened, a few askanim came in and told them that this weisfish is mamash a chushiva yungerman and is being thrown in jail for no reason, don't forget the sikrikim group have no badges nor do they register as sikrikim, they are adults with backrounds from many groups etc. and to the average person the seem just a little overzealous, that's all, but nothing of any danger, and this how this was presented to the rabunim...
Most people are confused and do not distinguish what had happened here...
#1 a irresponsible individual to say the least spit on a little girl,few months ago
#2 people mainly youngsters demonstrate every day the modern orthodox school in their neighborhood, beit shemesh
#3 sikrikim damage property and fight with people in mainly in yerushalayim meah shearim, as well as in bait shemesh
#4 signs were put up in bait shemesh separating sidewalks in frum neiborhoods with consent of local community
#5 thousands of charaidim travel the mehadrin segregated busses for past few years to the satisfaction of both men and women
#6 chilonim took naama as a cover girl to incite againts everything chareidi, the busses, the signs,
Where they went wrong is that, they have no right to fight segregated buses because of what happened as an isolated spitting event...
Most important to remember:
Rabbies of the eida hacharaidies, are enourmous talmidei chachamim as are other rabbies which they have a right to disagree with, and these eida rabbis would any day be m'kadesh shem shamayim and are moiser nefesh on any kitzoi she'll yud, as any of our vin readers, so please put aside your anger and read between the lines...eizahu chacham hameivin davar mitich davar..besides even if we don't understand, so be it, let yourself be m'vatel to daas torah, that dosnt say that you shouldn't follow your own rabbis p'sak, only don't talk against the very rabunim who in their merit our generation relies on... PLEASE PARDON MY ENGLISH my spell check was in a rush...thnx

Just about every one of your points is naarishkeit.
Let's run thru them quickly:
1. Mehadrin buses have not been running a long time. They are an innovation that was introduced in the last generation. Secondly, we don't have a problem with mehadrin buses per so, but only with the mulitple incidents of harrassment of women who do not want to sit in the back. (VIN reported that an inspector felt compelled to move in 5% of cases for fear of a physical confrontation. That's one woman out of every twently!)
2. We are in exile not becase we fought against extra stringencies in kedushah, but because of sinas chinam.
3. In general the kol korei supports those who make a mechaah, and does not make any exceptions. In particular, it supports Weissfish who committed crimes far worse than spitting -- he beat up anothe yid.
4. If these Rabbunim do not know the metzius, and are manipulated by askunim, they cannot be considered dayanim, and certain not gedolim.

I will deal with your second set of points in my next post.

95

 Jan 11, 2012 at 10:07 AM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #86  
brooklynjew Says:

Being the last to comment here, I could clearly see that some of you havnt read the kol koreh properly...
Let me explain: if you read carefully you will notice that there is nothing in there that we should disagree about, and here is why...
It says that they the chilonim want to abolish the mehadrin buses which has run for a long time and that we should fight it...do any of you disagree? And if you do, then why? Why should one chiloni trouble maker who dosnt want to sit in the back be able to create a firestorm and be able to undo what has been running for years to the satisfaction of 99.9 percent of those passengers...
#2 the statement that we are in exile and this is part of it, no disagreement there, we already know that as long as you have jews fighting extra stridengies in kedusha we are in galus indeed...
#3 there is no mention of condoning spitting on people, which is a good thing...
#4 the weissfish part was clearly disputed by some of the undersigned, and judging by how they have written it, you can be assured that this is what happened, a few askanim came in and told them that this weisfish is mamash a chushiva yungerman and is being thrown in jail for no reason, don't forget the sikrikim group have no badges nor do they register as sikrikim, they are adults with backrounds from many groups etc. and to the average person the seem just a little overzealous, that's all, but nothing of any danger, and this how this was presented to the rabunim...
Most people are confused and do not distinguish what had happened here...
#1 a irresponsible individual to say the least spit on a little girl,few months ago
#2 people mainly youngsters demonstrate every day the modern orthodox school in their neighborhood, beit shemesh
#3 sikrikim damage property and fight with people in mainly in yerushalayim meah shearim, as well as in bait shemesh
#4 signs were put up in bait shemesh separating sidewalks in frum neiborhoods with consent of local community
#5 thousands of charaidim travel the mehadrin segregated busses for past few years to the satisfaction of both men and women
#6 chilonim took naama as a cover girl to incite againts everything chareidi, the busses, the signs,
Where they went wrong is that, they have no right to fight segregated buses because of what happened as an isolated spitting event...
Most important to remember:
Rabbies of the eida hacharaidies, are enourmous talmidei chachamim as are other rabbies which they have a right to disagree with, and these eida rabbis would any day be m'kadesh shem shamayim and are moiser nefesh on any kitzoi she'll yud, as any of our vin readers, so please put aside your anger and read between the lines...eizahu chacham hameivin davar mitich davar..besides even if we don't understand, so be it, let yourself be m'vatel to daas torah, that dosnt say that you shouldn't follow your own rabbis p'sak, only don't talk against the very rabunim who in their merit our generation relies on... PLEASE PARDON MY ENGLISH my spell check was in a rush...thnx

contd.
We now move on to your second set of points.
1. You imply that there was only one incident of spitting by one individual. What about all the other acts of harassment that number in the hundreds or thousands?
2. The protesters against the school are not youngsters. They are grown men. Watch the videos.
ponts 3-5 are true
6. They media did not need Naama Margolese to criticise the mehadrin buses. They cited numerous other examples of women being harrassed on buses just because they wanted (for whatever reason) to sit in the front. And again, it was not an "isolated spitting incident."

Rabbis of the Edah Charedis are enormous Talmidei Chachamim but they represent a daas yachid. The vast majority of other Talmidei Chachamim disagree with them. And as you yourself admitted the rabbis of the Edah are manipulated by askanim.

I pardon your English. Even though your post was mostly nonsense, it was written better than most of the comments by the apologists for Charedi hooliganism.

96

 Jan 11, 2012 at 10:18 AM Ben Says:

This thing about Rav Moshe zt"l psak is getting kinda ridiculous.
Rav Moshe zt"l was one of the Gedolei Poskim in America.
He paskened in America.
B'H those who lived in America at the time were zoche to have someone like Rav Moshe live amongst them.
However Rav Moshe did not pasken for EY and in no way Rav Moshe would have found it ridiculous that his psokim were being used in the context that people are attempting to use them.
EY was zoche to GEdolei Poskim as well and in EY they go by the Gedolim who lived in and pakened for EY.

97

 Jan 11, 2012 at 12:11 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #93  
MAYERFREUND Says:

This is a big sheker he never said that.

Don't be so quick to use the word sheker.

Chazon Ish Yoreh Deah 1:6 -- הני צדוקים דשכיחי גבן וכו' מעשה אבותיהם בידיהם וכו' וכן אותן שאבותיו פירשו מדרכי הציבור והוא נתגדל ללא תורה דינו כישראל לכל דברן
(Notice that he's referring to people who are שכיחי גבן, "present with us".)

Chazon Ish Yoreh Deah 2:28, quotes the Rambam in Hichos Mamrim:
בניהם ותלמידיהם [של מומרים] חשיבי כאנוסים וכתנוק שנשבה

Chazon Ish adds there: ומצווין אנו להחיותו ואף לחלל עליו את השבת בשביל הצלתו

He also says there (citing the Maharam MiLublin and the Chafetz Chaim): אין רשאין לשנאותו אלא אחר שאינו מקבל תוכחה וכו' אצלנו הוא קדם תוכחה שאין אנו יודעין להוכיח ודיינין להו כאנוסין

It was well known that the Chazon Ish regarded modern secular Israelis (who are merely the descendants of those who originally went of the derech) as being tinokos shenishbu who have the full halachic status of Jews.

98

 Jan 11, 2012 at 12:15 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #96  
Ben Says:

This thing about Rav Moshe zt"l psak is getting kinda ridiculous.
Rav Moshe zt"l was one of the Gedolei Poskim in America.
He paskened in America.
B'H those who lived in America at the time were zoche to have someone like Rav Moshe live amongst them.
However Rav Moshe did not pasken for EY and in no way Rav Moshe would have found it ridiculous that his psokim were being used in the context that people are attempting to use them.
EY was zoche to GEdolei Poskim as well and in EY they go by the Gedolim who lived in and pakened for EY.

There are many poskim in Eretz Yisrael who follow Reb Moshe. The point is that it's a valid shitah, and those who follow it should not be harassed for doing so.

99

 Jan 11, 2012 at 01:24 PM My Daas Torah Says:

If it does not feel,sound,or smell right, it is not right. The proclamation from the Eda does not meet my smell test. Anyone with Daas Let alone Daas Torah would come to the same conclusion. Therefore I do not care how many seforim Rav Moshe Shternboch, Rav Tivia Weiss,Rav Kopshitz, ot any of these other rabbonim wrote, they are still wrong plain and simple. So as well is this entire meshugas of seperate seating on busses and seperate sidewalks.So as well these people with the long beards and payos shouting Pritza at women who walk by them on the street.etc.etc.etc. I say every day to Hashem Ata chonen Ladam Daas. I am sorry to say that it seems that lately Hashem is witholding daas from these rabbonim and their followers.

100

 Jan 12, 2012 at 01:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #97  
Ben_Kol Says:

Don't be so quick to use the word sheker.

Chazon Ish Yoreh Deah 1:6 -- הני צדוקים דשכיחי גבן וכו' מעשה אבותיהם בידיהם וכו' וכן אותן שאבותיו פירשו מדרכי הציבור והוא נתגדל ללא תורה דינו כישראל לכל דברן
(Notice that he's referring to people who are שכיחי גבן, "present with us".)

Chazon Ish Yoreh Deah 2:28, quotes the Rambam in Hichos Mamrim:
בניהם ותלמידיהם [של מומרים] חשיבי כאנוסים וכתנוק שנשבה

Chazon Ish adds there: ומצווין אנו להחיותו ואף לחלל עליו את השבת בשביל הצלתו

He also says there (citing the Maharam MiLublin and the Chafetz Chaim): אין רשאין לשנאותו אלא אחר שאינו מקבל תוכחה וכו' אצלנו הוא קדם תוכחה שאין אנו יודעין להוכיח ודיינין להו כאנוסין

It was well known that the Chazon Ish regarded modern secular Israelis (who are merely the descendants of those who originally went of the derech) as being tinokos shenishbu who have the full halachic status of Jews.

they may well have that status, but when they engage in organised attacks on jewish practice, they may certainly be treated as rodfim.

101

 Jan 12, 2012 at 01:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #53  
RoshCham1 Says:

@25 MAYERFREUND

Realy? most of the non charedim and cops are not jews? so most of the chayalim that are not charedi are goyim? You know what forget the outragous comment for a sec, where do you get your statistics on this information or are you following the Eida's path and just pulling numbers out of the thin air? Are you for real or are you just trolling? I'm having a very hard time trying to figure this out, could be that your being sarcastic, yea thats it ill be Dan L'kaf zchus and say that your just being sarcastic.

Get real mister. 25% of the IDf swear allegiance these days on the gospel - that is publicly admitted by the IDF and the Israeli media. The Riot Police have always been Druze because only they can be trusted to beat up Jews and Arabs alike. I don't have the percentages of non-Jews in the police, but it is likely quite high. Having lived there and still regularly spend quite long periods there, I can assure you it is easy to recognise the Eastern European features of many of them.

102

 Jan 12, 2012 at 03:04 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #100  
Anonymous Says:

they may well have that status, but when they engage in organised attacks on jewish practice, they may certainly be treated as rodfim.

Even if they are rodfim, what is the halachic relevance? Even a real rodef (someone on his way to killing or raping another person) may be killed only if there is no other way of stopping him. How do you propose to stop the people who, in your words "engage in organized attacks on Jewish practice". The only practical way of stopping them is through darkei noam. Violence and anger have the opposite effect.

103

 Jan 12, 2012 at 03:21 PM Ben_Kol Says:

Reply to #101  
Anonymous Says:

Get real mister. 25% of the IDf swear allegiance these days on the gospel - that is publicly admitted by the IDF and the Israeli media. The Riot Police have always been Druze because only they can be trusted to beat up Jews and Arabs alike. I don't have the percentages of non-Jews in the police, but it is likely quite high. Having lived there and still regularly spend quite long periods there, I can assure you it is easy to recognise the Eastern European features of many of them.

See comment #42.

104

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