Tel Aviv – El Al passengers are noting a recent phenomenon involving clusters of ultra-Orthodox men approaching female passengers prior to take-off and requesting to switch seats, according to El Al customers and tour operators.
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While the phenomenon of lone Haredi men approaching female passengers is not new, and has in fact gone on for years, large groups of Haredim – upwards of 15-20 people in some instances – are reportedly attempting to secure blocs of seats for themselves. Their persistence is causing consternation and friction, while setting off a host of logistical problems during the course of some flights, according to a number of sources interviewed by Haaretz.
A Haredi tour operator who works with the religious community places the blame squarely on the passengers.
“If both sides respected each other more there wouldn’t be a problem,” says the operator, who asked not to be identified because he also serves non-Haredi clients.
A spokesman for El Al – which is represented by the Israeli public relations firm of Ran Rahav Communications, Ltd. – released a statement to Haaretz maintaining that “the convenience of passengers and the delivery of uncompromising, quality service, serve as the basis of El Al’s reputation.”
Excuse me?!?! Why are proper frum women having to move because a man can’t control himself?!
Let HIM find a new seat on the plane! Why make her switch?!
It’s doesn’t take a strict feminist to find this kind of stuff insulting! First I’m reading people are asking women to walk down a different side of the street or a different street all together, then the buses… now this?!
What? Do we all have cooties or something?! (lol)
Seriously though… maybe it’s time for the men to control themSELVES a little more, rather than pushing their issues onto the women.
I don’t see why a properly-dressed woman needs to move anywhere on the place unless she WANTS to.
Oy vey g-d forbid we metameh dem moyah with sitting next to females
There is a disconnect between the headline and the body of the article. It seems that the Chareidim are asking passengers to reseat. It does not indicate an argument or animosity. I have been asked many times if I could relocate to accommodate another passenger’s wish.
I don’t blame these men… Aside for relgious reasons, all they need is an anti chareidi women they sit next to, to say that his hand touched her inappropriately while he was sleeping.. People were blamed already when they were innocent… Stay away from them.
This is very interesting since R’ Moshe paskened that it is permissable to sit next to women. Ok, this might not be lechatchila, but it’s definetly not something to cause a chillul hashem over. People loose sight of priorities when it comes to chumros.
It is the height of CHUTZPA for anyone to try to bully someone else to move their seat on the plane. Many of us choose our seats MONTHS before the flight, to get an aisle seat for example. For medical reasons, there are thousands of people that MUST have an aisle seat. To have someone come along, and want you to give up your carefully selected seat so you can sit in the back near a toilet, or in a middle seat, or window is just plain WRONG. I won’t fly El Al for this very reason.
No. Problem I’ll move, just pay to upgrade me to business or first class.
This phenomenon is called bein hazmanim. More air travel by orthodox.
Nothing wrong to ask politely if some one wishes to swap seats. Nothing wrong with tznius. Bring on your theological bashing
Chasidishe people get all obsessed when a woman sits next to them. There is no trangression as long as you dont touch her. And pity you if you do, you will sit in jail for a few years. Just sit on flight and relax and dont jup up every moment the seat belt light is off.
I do hope they try this when my wife and I visit Israel. I’d love to give this idiots and Chillulei Hashem a piece of my mind.
Fly Air Taliban or Salafi Air from Ankara, Turkey, to either Europe or US, problem solved.
Provide them with cardboard boxes and gently place it upon their bodies. That way they are secluded from the “others”.
You know what? This is getting riduculous already with these martians, I know it’s hard for martians not to fly, but these particular ones SHOULD NOT FLY!
This is nothing new. This happened to me years ago. I was asked if I would move. I refused. The charedi disrupted the whole flight while the poor flight attendant was explaining I was not required to move for him. He had a sense of entitlement. That is what this is … a sense of entitlement. Although years before that when I was single and returning from a trip to Israel when smoking was still allowed in the back of the plane, I was given a row in the back and the plane was empty so I fell asleep laying across three seats. I woke up and found charedim sitting on the arm rests at my feet and sitting on the arm rest right above my head, puffing smoke over me. It did not bother them then.
give them a block of seats….near the bathrooms
El Al should consider putting these men in the cargo section where they transport pets. This way not only they won’t have to be next to women but also avoid all those scary looking non-religious Jews who are so below them and can have “negative” influence on these holy guys.
This is a recent trend but for decades millions of religious men flew on airplanes sitting next to women without any problems.
If this were a Muslim woman requesting to sit near a woman would the outrage be the same?
Sitting for 13 hours near a woman in tight quarters is uncomfortable. If the man falls asleep and accidentally touches the woman, she can make all sorts of claims – and that has already happened.
If a man wants to be frum, why can’t we respect his wishes. Is moving seats disrespectful to women?
Yes so what? If its dealt with politely, then what’s wrong? Its MY choice wether I want to sit next to a famale or not, and if someone feels that sitting next to a female will cause him “ruchniyus” problems then feel free to change.
Start your own airline if you don’t want to sit next to women. Have all male flights.
I have a question for all these holier than thou charedim. Why is it that for the past 40 years it has been a non issue to sit next to a woman on a plane, bus, subway, etc. All of a sudden, in the past couple of years, you meshugaim have decided that you know the halacha better than anyone else in the past? And you have the unadulterated chutzpah to impose your BS on everyone else? I, for one, am so sick and tired of your KRUMkeit (cuz its not FRUMkeit). If you ask me to move I will tell you what Hashem told Adam – “be fruitful and multiply”, but not it those words.
These people are frummer than Rav Moshe. Having said that, as long as I wasn’t being asked to split up from my kids, I would switch seats with one of these men if it made them more comfortable. It doesn’t hurt me.
Book on the lower deck, next to the caskets, this way they can shoimer the body throughout the flight. Of course, if the coffin contains a female, all bets are off.
Absolutely nothing wrong with this – as long as its done RESPECTFULLY and POLITELY of course
As an American woman living in America. I have politely asked guys to switch seats with me. Nothing wrong and nothing to do with the Israeli Chareidim. If you’re a frum person wherever you live and you don’t want to sit near someone from the opposite sex there’s nothing wrong with asking to change. I never made a fuss about it and never saw anyone else making a fuss about it. It’s only the newspapers making a fuss not the passengers.
These people are mamash crazy.
As a woman, I’d be very uncomfortable myself sitting next to a chareidi man. Additionally, I have a friend who was borderline molested by a “chareidi” man sitting next to her on a plain, (those blankets do a good job for these sickos), so I’d prefer not to have to take the risk and start guessing which chareidi man can control himself and which can’t. Still, it’s one thing to go over to a stewardess quietly and ask if you can switch seats next to a man in the back and it’s another thing to gang up and intimidate people.
100%!! Chareidi men shouldn’t have to sit next to women on a plane. That’s why I firmly believe that any Chareidi man who is concerned about his prospective seatmate should have it his way at all costs…..PAY FOR 2 SEATS!
When you have people of any type growing up believing in entitlements, behavior of the type described in the article is to be expected. When a chareidi who didn’t have a seat next to his wife asked MY wife to move (when I was sitting next to her) on an international flight so that he wouldn’t have to set next to a woman, I suggested to him that the airline would quite happy to accomodate him if he was willing to pay for a first class seat. That of course, was not what he had in mind. When I was soon asked by the stewardess if my wife might move (because HIS wife had now asked her do so), I went to the wife and told her that her request now bordered on chutzpah. Later in the flight, when I opened up the Daf Yomi, that woman went absolutely bonkers. She couldn’t understand why I wasn’t being reasonable with her chushoveh husband…
i dont mind switching, just give me an aisle seat. ask nicely and it’s a yes.
El Al should have flights for men only Charge a fee for this service above the
regular fare $300.00 per flight If they do not want to pay they should rent their
own planes and start a new airline
I don’t see the difference if someone asks me to move so their family has seats all together, or is traveling with friends and wants my seat. What’s the big deal? Nobody has to move if they don’t want to.
My husband and I have a simple philosophy, if the person in the third seat is the opposite gender, we switch seats so that there are no accidental contacts. This way no one is involved or inconvenienced.
I take issue with the last paragraph of the article regarding “the convenience of passengers and the delivery of uncompromising, quality service, serve as the basis of El Al’s reputation.”
I am unimpressed with the quality of El Al’s service. El Al did not consider my convenience or the convenience of my elderly parents and my sister on a recent flight from Israel. They completely ignored our seating requests even though we booked early. Upon arrival at Ben Gurion, we were told the plane had been “reconfigured” and we all had middle seats all over the plane. EL AL only accommodated my mother’s request for an aisle seat after we made a big fuss in the airport (she is 85 and handicapped). I was seated in a middle seat next to my parents and my sister was given a middle seat in a row near us. Just to be clear, my sister and I also requested aisle seats but our requests were ignored. Instead the aisle seat next to me was given to one of their frequent fliers ( another woman). I have complained to customer service which so far has not responded. This was the second time that they have done this to us.
Although my appearance may not be so “frum looking”, I am doing this for the past 30 years whenever i travel on a long trip, not only to Israel and not only on El Al, and I’m traveling a lot. except for one instance I always found nice goodhearted women who gladly switcherd seats with me, in most cases I reserved a good aisle seat so the lady didn’t mind switching, in fact, most of them respected it, jewish and non Jewish, frum or non frum, in one case she was so stubborn, so i sat next to her since I had no choice, she was so horribly dressed (undressed) i couldn’t utter a word Torah or tefilah (l’halacha).
This is getting to be too much. At a time when we need lavish amounts of chesed to counter the ruach shtus that is rampaging among us, why do we keep moving to out “chumrah” each other? Doesn’t make sense. Makes me embarrassed to identify as Orthodox.
With all the talk about a “shidduch crisis,” why aren’t the yeshiva boys sitting near enough to the seminary girls to talk? Rav Moshe’s son-in-law, Rav Tendler, told students at YU that Rav Moshe insisted not just on mixed seating at Rav Tendler’s wedding banquet, but that the young singles sit at smaller tables so they could meet new people and perhaps make shidduchim. Then, Rav Tendler said, “but some people would say my father-in-law didn’t know the halacha.” That being said, my daughter was more than anxious to change seats, mostly because the boys and men had “disgusting” manners or had a bad odor (or both). Then there was the time my niece was seated next to a fellow who decided in Jerusalem that he is the Moshiach (they call that the “Jerusalem Flu.” Personally, I avoid El Al and take the USAirways flight from Philly.
It is for this very reason that I go out of my way to avoid flying elal possibly the worst airline in the world
Baruch haShem, we also have Continental and/or British Airways flying to and from Tel Aviv.
Their staff will not put up with this stupid nonsense. In fact, their captains are empowered by law to refuse to carry obstreperous passengers who try to force their will on others.
To #1 - Sherry- the problem is not all of the women who fly on El Al are frum women. Some travelers on international flights dress provocatively (i.e. short skirts, shorts, plunging necklines, etc.). I can see why frum gentlemen would be uncomfortable, being seated next to such individuals, on a long flight.
To #’s 4, 10, and18- I afraid that all of you have your facts wrong. The individual in question was convicted in a bench trial, in the Eastern District Federal Court of New York. The complainant was a female major in the IDF, who was sleeping. She awoke to find the defendant with his hand, in her private area. His excuse was that he fell asleep and “accidentally” touched her. The Delta Airlines crew immediately detained the individual. In any event, his story was not credible. He was sentenced to 60 days in jail, which for that offense, was relatively light.
shame on all of u putting down the frum people on this issue ,it shows u have no respect for yourselves and ur religon,some of u on here talk worse then the goyim ,maybe its time the airlines learn more about the religion and respect it .
Kol ha Kavod — you are moser nefesh, and are going lifnim meshuras hadin to be m’kayim the gevaldikka AVEIRA of Sinas Chinum
Happy to see the Beis Hamikdash won’t be rebuilt today!!!
Hashem weeps!!!
If the person asks nicely and the seat offered me is to my liking, I have no problem accommodating him. I am not obligated to endure a lengthy flight in discomfort. That doesn’t make me a bad person or someone who is not willing to do a chessed. People who have special seating issues should travel in threes-of the same gender. #55 , your point about seat tracking is a good one.
I have not read all the comments but I believe that unfortunately “hype” and “sensationalism” is winning over common sense yet again (funny how uncommon common sense is) We all know that Rav Moshe allowed men to sit next to women and we also know that many people prefer not to. The vast majority of people ask to switch seats in a polite and respectful way, usually approaching the cabin crew. It is very unusual for someone to try and force somebody to change seat and/or to be disrespectful and I do not think that the few exceptions to the rule should be given coverage and be seen to represent the majority, this minority would find a way to behave the way they do regardless of the solution found . This goes for both Frum and non Frum people. Most get along fine as long as the approach is respectful. It is easy to be cynical and sarcastic and paint a whole segment of the Jewish people with the same brush. One possible way to deal with the problem facing people who do not want to be seated next a member of the opposite sex is to have this preference noted in the booking (like strict Kosher meals) and the airline can then allocate seats accordingly.