Jerusalem – Rav Shteinman: No Secular Studies In Haredi Education

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    Jerusalem – The spiritual leader of the haredi world, Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman, issued a defiant declaration Monday against the teaching of secular studies in the ultra-Orthodox education system.

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    In a pronouncement on the front page of haredi daily Yated Neeman, Shteinman said haredi schools would not change their educational approach whatsoever, regardless of any government plans to reform the system.

    “They come to us now to interfere and demand that we change study arrangements by adding more hours of secular studies and threaten us with altering the budgets,” Shteinman wrote.

    “It is incumbent on all principles of haredi schools to unequivocally reject [these proposals], and not change by even a hair’s breadth the educational path which we have received until today,” the rabbi wrote.

    According to a draft of the Economic Arrangements Law – a government bill presented alongside the budget – haredi schools will be hit with severe cuts in funding if they do not dedicate a requisite number of hours to core curriculum subjects such as Maths and English.

    The large majority of ultra-Orthodox schools teach very little secular studies to male pupils, a fact that has been cited as a major obstacle to the integration of haredi men into the workforce.

    These schools teach the study of religious Jewish texts to the exclusion of almost everything else.

    Separately, The Jerusalem Post understands that Education Minister Shai Piron has assembled an advisory committee of four ultra-Orthodox activists who have expressed support for reforming the haredi school system.

    Piron is seeking input from the committee as to how introducing secular studies into the haredi school system can be achieved, given the intense level of opposition to the notion from its leadership.

    Leading ultra-Orthodox rabbis such as Shteinman, see the haredi education system as perhaps the most critical element in the formation of haredi identity, which is why they are so vehemently opposed to outside influence.

    The United Torah Judaism party has described Piron as “the most dangerous man in Israel for the haredim” because of his intention to introduce secular studies such as Math and English into ultra-Orthodox schools.

    Content provided as courtesy by The Jerusalem Post


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    75 Comments
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    OscarMadison
    OscarMadison
    10 years ago

    Math is assur! Science is assur! Let’s breed another generation of ignorant, ghetto-dwelling, diaper-throwing parasites who can’t provide for themselves, thereby creating facts on the ground that necessitate endless handouts.

    10 years ago

    The idea of secular studies is also referenced in the trust in G-d that goes along with HUMAN DEVELOPMENT. If you ignore the ways of the “secular society” because you think you have it better only in your corner of the realm, you are likely going to miss out on many functional assessments of human development.

    It shows many times when I see many jewish people on this site who can not write or speak in disciplined English as well as poor syntax and grammar as well as a lack of fundamental understanding of many reasonable interviewing techniques that are developed along the way as we take classes like math and science.

    I am very disappointed in this “mindset”.

    thegreatone
    thegreatone
    10 years ago

    Now is the time for ALL Charedi Jews to come to the recognition how many previous Gedolim paskend that it is not allowed to take any founding for mosdos from the Israeli government.One of their reasons was becuase the government has no interest what so ever to in helping Jews educating boys/girls to a full torah education.If they give money they have their reasons and in end they will demand what the curriculum should be.And so we see it now that those mosdos who didn’t take any money have no problems now and those who couldn’t resist the temptation of money are in big trouble fighting with the government not to mix in what they should teach.
    How correct was the great Satmar rebbe z’tl and the Edah Hachareidis in 1978 when he established the Keren Hatzolah found where every year they send like four to five Million dollars to the over 100 Mosdos in Israel where it helps them a bit but also shows support that we Jews worldwide are with them.
    Charedi Jews,Open your eyes.

    SandmanNY
    SandmanNY
    10 years ago

    There is simply no way that a large segment of the populace (the chareidim) can co-exist with others when they are confined to a mental shtetl of ignorance and institutional poverty. Zos Torah?

    yonasonw
    Member
    yonasonw
    10 years ago

    We Chareidim don’t need no secular education…let the hilonim and the goyim be the doctors, lawyers, accountants, psychologists, nurses, architects, detectives, meterologists, engineers, pilots, army officers, city planners, legislators, actuarials, insurance agents, real estate professionals, computer scientists, mathematicians, chemists, research biologists, judges, hospital administrators, etc., etc., etc.

    MoisheL
    MoisheL
    10 years ago

    what are the four men thing they are charedi but still agreed to the goverment about secular curriculum!

    LETS JUST HAVE MOSHIACH NOW!

    BTW: Anonymous sounds like you arguing with Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman is that what you meant? (Maths & English is maybe Okay but they are forcing the Charedim to use their curriculum) they are turning the country upside down with makeing the kosel mixed and the army. The last thing you should do is agree with what they are doing!

    proud-mo-israeli
    proud-mo-israeli
    10 years ago

    & so another generation of Jews are condemned to lifelong ignorance & poverty.
    Brothers! Rise Up & shake off the shackles of being kept in the dark both in terms of education & poverty!
    Don’t you see that the only reason they are forbidding education is to keep you indebted to them forever!
    Go & Learn!
    Go & work!
    Go & serve Am Yisrael in Tzahal!

    Professor
    Professor
    10 years ago

    I cannot ubderstand, how is it that you can take money with conditions attached. Yet not meet them. And when the money is withdrawn you complain.
    Dont teach secular studies and dont ask me to pay for it.

    MoisheL
    MoisheL
    10 years ago

    Think About It Can You Picture This Scene?
    “Every Frum Boy Going To The Israeli Army”
    Can You?
    No! Good I Also Can’t
    Well Maybe 100,000 Frum Men Sitting In Jail Because They Sent Their Sons To Jail?
    Also Not? Funny!
    What Do The Israeli Government Wan’t?

    What About The Kosel Becoming Mixed! Soon Netanyahu Will Wan’t To Make His Home Their So He Will Move It!

    The Last Prime Minister To Try And Send All The Bochurim To The Army Is Still In A Coma Because He Got A Threat From Sephardic Rabbi!

    jackr
    jackr
    10 years ago

    I agree with you 100%. Not one penny of Israeli money whould go to any Chareidim in Israel if they do not serve the Klal in a way that can be understood by those they are living with. Rav Shteiman’s decree Assurring any change in the Israeli education system and all of you who are advocating (like the Satmar rebbe )to not take money from the Government, will let the burden of finances fall on the Chareidi world in Chutz LaAretz, basically those of you in the US who support the notion. Let me hear from all you hard working Chareidim in Willy, Boro Park and Monsey, is that where you are going to send your Maiser money in order to prevent some young Israeli Chareidi from learning Math? All of you in Lakewood, are you prepared to share your Section 8 money with the Chevra in Bnei Brak who refuse to learn English so that one day they can possibly get a job? If they refuse to educate their children (which should be a parents responsibility in order to provide Parnassah for their family) should the burden fall on the Chareidi world outside of Eretz Yisrael?

    wsbrgh
    wsbrgh
    10 years ago

    The Rambam, in Hilchos Kiddush HaChodesh, made simple-to-use tables for people ignorant of basic astronomy, calculus, and trigonometry so that they wouldn’t have to break away from Torah study for too long.

    bewhiskered
    bewhiskered
    10 years ago

    “The spiritual leader of the haredi world, Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman, issued a defiant declaration Monday against the teaching of secular studies in the ultra-Orthodox education system.”

    Without question, in the last 50 years there has never been a greater גדול הדור (including Rav Shteinman with all due respect) than רב משה פיינשטיין זצוק”ל, who never complained about the בחורים of MTJ taking Regents, SAT’s, or attending evening sessions at CCNY, Brooklyn College, etc. Yet, today the חרדי mindset is “Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the Frumest of them all?”

    Years ago, Rabbi Norman Lamm of YU referred to the world of non working חרדים as ‘cavemen,’ for which he received a deluge of criticism (Rav Elya Svei even publicly referred to Lamm as a שונא ישראל for this statement). But now, years later, it appears that Lamm was not that far from the truth.

    Originally, men had the קללה of בזעת אפיך תאכל לחם, and women had their own of בעצב תלדי בנים. Now, it seems that the poor women have both!

    LakewoodJew
    LakewoodJew
    10 years ago

    Reply to #3. You are sadly an uneducated boor who for a few reasons. First of all your English is horrible and secondly you praise the Satmar Rav who is responsible for a tremendous amount of Sinas Chinam and the horrible state that Satmar Jews find themselves today. I am disgusted by the so-called Chasidim and Chareidim who do not represent anything close to Judaism. I challenge anyone to tell me in what way has the modern Chareidi movement made anyone proud to be Jewish.

    chosid
    chosid
    10 years ago

    This has nothing to do with secular education and everything to do with the secular authorities interfering in religious matters. In the US this manifests itself with the bris. In E”Y it manifests itself as “shivuyon bnetel” and chinuch. They have no business getting involved in our internal affairs. May Hashem give the Rov and all yiden the koach to stand up to the pressure of the government.

    getitright
    getitright
    10 years ago

    to comments 1, 2, and 4 and to similar ones that follow.
    understand that Rabbi Steinman is saying the following- do not allow the secular government to determine the Jewish curriculum.

    period.

    should they need assistance in how to educate their children they can come learn from us- meaning the irreligious can come learn from the religious. we have more experience.

    our children do not do what their children do- all agree to that,

    as far as secular education – to my knowledge many religious jews have learned and excelled in all subject matters that were of interest to them.

    religious Jews do not consider math and science absolutely secular on the contrary we utilize similar areas of knowledge for understanding many areas of our learning.

    we do not have anything against knowledge.

    we have an issue with those who want us to be like them because they think we need to be what they want us to be….

    PchaFresser
    PchaFresser
    10 years ago

    Learning basic math, science and life skills will keep MORE Yidden on the derech and let many people earn a respectable livelihood and not have to schnor and steal in order to get by.
    Giving children a math education will give them the option to work, if they choose that path. As of now, the only path other than lifelong Kollel is lifelong bum tuna beigel! Why shouldn’t Chareidi children have the option to become something other than a tuna beigel!!

    What have we sunk to? In Europe, where Rav Shteinman himself is from, everybody worked!

    Peter
    Peter
    10 years ago

    If you don’t want to follow the dictates of the education ministry, don’t take the government money. It seems sad to me that Haredi want to continue to live in poverty, surviving on tzedakah and government welfare, rather than learn to provide for themselves and their families.

    commonsense18
    commonsense18
    10 years ago

    Next time Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman needs a doctor – send him to a Talmud chachum. Let’s see how fast he recovers.

    AlterHacker
    AlterHacker
    10 years ago

    HoRav Shteinman is a Tzadik and he is presenting Daas Torah.

    grandpajoe
    grandpajoe
    10 years ago

    If one doesn’t learn secular subjects how is one supposed to make a living ?

    seagul47
    seagul47
    10 years ago

    Remember that there is a difference between Israel and the diaspora (gola).

    In the US etc. a certain level of limudei chol has always been entirely acceptable.

    In Israel, the old arguments of Eastern Europe and the “Old Yishuv” still persist.

    Not to forget, we must add the continuing animosity of the frum by certain elements (Lapid’s father, the old Meretz/Mapam) and the kulterkampf that has existed in Israel for decades.

    So, even if it may be a good idea to give a certain modicum of secular education (I don’t want to go into what is enough or not), the moment it is proposed, especially at the same time as proposing compulsory service/draft for Yeshiva bochurim, makes for a toxic mixture.

    Also please note that Lapid did not finish high school and had a patsy job in the army (not a fighting unit) [correct me if I’m wrong on that]

    honestbroker
    honestbroker
    10 years ago

    No secular studies leaves you qualified at best, for nothing more than a dead end job, or no job at all, ergo, perpetual poverty . No surprise that we are witnessing generation after generation, subsisting on handouts. Just try davening Shachris in any shul in Flatbush. The mishulachim from EY are getting younger and younger. There is actually a father-son team that comes around.

    Butterfly
    Butterfly
    10 years ago

    Then stop sending us your begging letters!!

    sane
    sane
    10 years ago

    I have no problem with Chareid schools with no secular education. However, at the same time, there ought to be a parallel track for those not suited to full time learning (and that is likely the vast majority) where secular subjects and trades are also taught.

    NeveAliza
    NeveAliza
    10 years ago

    What about the frum yeshiva high schools in America teaching secular studies? Is Rav Shteinman’s pronouncement applicable to them as well? If something is wrong with secular knowledge, it should be osur in all yeshiva’s including the US. Will the Rabbonim in the US follow Rav Shteinman’s Daas Torah or ignore, I mean, come up with their own Daas Torah on this?

    MoisheL
    MoisheL
    10 years ago

    Correct Well Said!

    hashomer
    hashomer
    10 years ago

    If one reads back all the posts above, there are really only two issues: Charedi fearing forced secular education VS. secular/modern Jews angry about Charedi taking money from secular society but refusing to submit to secular authority. Can the Torah illuminate our teachings on this dichotomy???? If the Torah can, then let’s all abide by the ruling. If the Torah dictates only add to the confusion, then go get a secular education immediately!!!

    ATalmud
    ATalmud
    10 years ago

    When I went to Telshe Yeshiva Rav Gifter Z’TL used to say that one who does not go to learn secular studies is like he is over bittul torah! He would frown on those who would skip secular studies and think they are frummer than everyone and went off to learn in the bais hamedrish instead. In fact any Telzer reading this will recall the sign in the high school stating the very line above with Rav Gifter’s signature! He used to say that it is irrelevant if you will be a Rosh Yeshiva one day but you must be educated and know the ways of the world! He used to attend every high school graduation and speak with all pride! In my days (this was just 20 years ago) they had a formal graduation and celebrated this with pride. Why is it that all the major yeshivos in the USA such as Torah Vedas, Torah Temima, Chaim Berlin etc have secular studies even though not required? Because they are NORMAL. No one ever said they were doing something wrong!

    Barsechel
    Barsechel
    10 years ago

    What about the Rambam – Bartenura – siporno – Abarbanel – all of whom were educated , what is this Taliban mentality does he really think that all chareidim should have zero secular education?
    and what about the entire American charedi educated Doctors Lawyers etc who support the entire “charedi” charade in Israel.
    As usual we are our greatest enemy by articulating extreme hashkofes – this again is causing a huge pirud amongst chareidim

    10 years ago

    Avoiding studies of the greater world only ensures your future is not worth much in the tainted eyes of a bad year. But really if you ask me, the challenge for Israel is not to be in vogue with the nations at all, but to lead them. And who will lead the world if you do not know science and math?

    10 years ago

    We don’t need no secular education
    We dont need no Zionist thought control
    No dark sarcasm in the Knesset
    Netanyahu leave them kids alone

    10 years ago

    Unfortunately, the Zionists are the ones who still wish to shmad the chareidim and turn them into R”L Zionists, and the Rav will obviously not allow that.

    If the Zionists were not Zionists, I would imagine that the Rav would have no objection to them learning things for parnassa. But to prevent the Zionists from introducing Avoda Zara and kefira to them, they have to stand firm and disallow any changes by the Zionists.

    long island bubby
    long island bubby
    10 years ago

    I cannot accept the concept of keeping children ignorant.
    However, if Charedim insist on educating their children in Torah only, that is their choice.
    HOWEVER, it is also the right of the government to refuse to support education that does not meet their standards, and the Yeshivot will have to be self-supporting. Right now, people who do not work, who show low incomes get many, many benefits from the government. They get reduced insurance & pharmaceutical co-payments, they get reduced arnona, they get monthly child credits (money put into the individuals bank account) they get reduced mortgage rates, and the list goes on and on. The government has decided “enough”. If you chose not to work, fine, but it will not be our responsibility to support your family.
    The Israeli government is drowning in red ink. They can no longer support a percentage of the population (that is growing at an enormous rate) that is choosing not to work.
    In Israel, unless you are very wealthy, both the Mom & Dad work just to have a lower middle-class life. That is the reality