Salem, OR – December inside Oregon’s Capitol is filled with a forest of lighted trees, tall toy soldiers and carols sung by school choirs. But requests to add a Jewish menorah and a Christian display to the mix have sent legislative leaders directly to their lawyers.
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What are the boundary lines between church and state? What about freedom of speech and religion? And is the rotunda at the center of the state Capitol truly a public square?
“We’re waiting for a legal opinion, which I think will hopefully clarify the issues,” Senate President Peter Courtney said. “I want to be fair, and I want to be consistent.”
There’s no question that church and state separation issues are difficult, said House Speaker-elect Dave Hunt. “The state should not be endorsing any one religious expression.”
Ideally, Courtney and Hunt would like to have their lawyers weigh in before the Dec. 1 lighting of the Capitol’s giant holiday tree.
Last year, Rabbi Avrohom Perlstein from the Chabad Jewish Center in Salem asked to put up a menorah across from the Capitol’s traditional tree. His argument is similar to one made by Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun: The menorah, used during the celebration of Hanukkah, is a symbol of the season, much like the lighted tree.
After months of delay, Perlstein says, his request was turned down. So he’s asking again this year.
“A menorah is a symbol of the season and specifically a symbol of universal freedom,” he said. “It won’t be a large menorah, and I offered to store it.”
Fran Martin, wants a Christian scene, the argument is all about religious expression.
“The principle is, if they do open a forum, it’s got to be open to all,” said Mike Johnson, the fund’s senior attorney.
Is this what Hashem wants?
It dosnt in Halacha that you should put it on the street and it dosnt have to be so big.
The Menorah is *NOT* a ‘symbol of the season’. And Chanukah is *NOT* about universal freedom. It is a celebration of miracles that the Jewish people were blessed with when we remained true to the Torah. We should not misrepresent it in an attempt to make it more politically correct.
here we go again!
“A menorah is a symbol of the season and specifically a symbol of universal freedom???” Where’d this guy get smicha? Hebrew Union College? I didn’t know Chabad was sending out reform “rabbis” now.
This is so simple and obvious:
1) this is THEIR country, we are in golus and we are guests here. A guest doesn’t redecorate the living room.
2) this is their big holiday, let them have it. We should feel no need to put our imprint on it. All that does is instigate them against us.
3) the fact that technically and legally according to the constitution we CAN do it doesn’t mean we SHOULD do it. We do NOT define the expression of yiddishkeit according to the laws of the goyim but according to halacha.
4) there is no halacha or minhag that supports these kinds of public displays
5) in reality this is just minhag shtus anyway. These displays the goyim have don’t REALLY have anything to do with the holiday anyway, they just do it because, well, they do. All the MORE reason as yidden not to follow suit, it’s just imitating the silly customs of the goyim, which is PROHIBITED.
An orthodox rabbi SHOULD know this. Unfortunately, too many of these chabad shluchim don’t.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe O.B.M. was very big into this .. I believe his motive was to enhance and rejuvenate Jewish pride and identity (by people seeing this and getting a warm feeling of Jewish pride.) …. Same reason for the Lag b’omer parade (this is not an halachic issue per say).
Because of these things , the goyim get the idea that Chanukah is our “Big Holiday” of the year. Where I work (mostly goyim) they say “‘Hanukah???……….oh yeah, the Jewish Christmas”, and then they remember Kwanza- they jumble it all up together and define everything in terms of their Holiday. I think that the big Menorah displays, as well as a present on each day, all these things are Not in our interest and blurs lines of seperation and distinction from them. Like the other poster said: Let them have their day (“every dog has his day”)
I well remember when the case of the Menorah in front of city hall was tried in the Supreme Court in the late 80s. They ruled that while the Menorah is a religious symbol, it ALSO HAS SECULAR MEANING, and when there is a sign proclaiming that secular message it is allowed.
The purpose of the Menorah is pirsumei nissah, that is why we place it near a window or a door. The reason Chabad lights these huge Menorahs is to further spread the story of the miracle. While the main miracle we celebrate is that of the pach shemen that lasted, we also commemorate the victory of the few over the many, the weak over the strong etc. That miracle and message resonates to Americans. This country was founded by people fleeing religious persecution, the victory of the Maccabim is one that all Americans can relate to. The yid who sees the Menorah sees one thing, the goy another.
The non-Jewish judges recognized both oh these aspects, the religious and the secular messages, and allowed the display. The counties and cities that try to stop it are violating this ruling. So why should the Rabbi’s stop erecting them?!
Thank you for proving my point: Pirsumai nissah as chazal were mesakain it is to light a menorah at your door. (I’m pretty sure the door to your house is not in the town square.)
Again, please, someone, find us a mekor for this new idea to put the issue to rest once and for all.
Ahhhh. now I get it. The Rebbe tells his Chasidim to do something and the first thing the chasidim are supposed to say is “But Rebbe, where does it say this in chazal?” and “Rebbe, who gave you the right to start new minhaggim” and “Rebbe, it’s a good idea, you know all those folks on vozisnais and the other web sites will get really agrevated?”
Right next to this story on Vosizneias, there is one about Eruv. All you guys up in arms about the public Menorahs and the argument that “we are guests here” or something like that and “m’darf nisht unreitzen di guyim”. What about all the Eruv cases, why aren’t you on to that and attacking it? Or perhaps is it just ideological?
If you would know how many Jews were brought closer to Yiddishkeit as a result of seeing those Menorahs maybe you would have a different attitude. (If that means nothing to you, then we are not on the same page at all).
By this logic anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. However, your need to resort to personal insults removes any need for me to reply in kind.
Klal Yisroel doesn’t change minhog 2,000+ years after it started based on your svorah. One could easily justify erasing half of orach chaim the same way.
Again, please, someone, anyone, please find us a mekor for this new idea to put the issue to rest once and for all. (Would a cash reward for the first person to find one make the search go quicker?)