Jerusalem – Two women serve in Israel’s new Cabinet, but some Israelis would rather not see them.
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Newspapers aimed at ultra-Orthodox Jewish readers tampered with the inaugural photograph of the Cabinet, erasing ministers Limor Livnat and Sofa Landver.
Ultra-Orthodox newspapers consider it immodest to print images of women.
The daily Yated Neeman digitally changed the photo, moving two male ministers into the places formerly occupied by the women.
The weekly Shaa Tova simply blacked the women out, in a photo reprinted Friday by the mainstream daily Maariv.
No response was available from the two papers.
During the election, campaign posters featuring female candidate Tzipi Livni were defaced near ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods.
Is it prohibited by the Jewish law?
A true kiddush hashem. “Kidoshim teheyu” ~ distance yourself from arayus (forbidden relations)
Just as the secular papers specially put in immodest material to attract readers & increase sales, the Orthodox do what they have to do to hold on to their clientele, which side do you prefer to be on? Mi k’amcha Yisrael!
They don’t go modesty and want we should look on their pictures?!
guess they found some old soviet apparatchiks who could teach them the technique of removing inconvenient people from history!
Not showing pictures of women’s faces or otherwise tzniusdik pictures is a chumra that some have and not a halacha.
There is a famous picture of the Chofetz Chaim talking to Rav Elchonon where the Chofetz Chaim’s wife is in the picture. The Chofetz Chaim apparently had no problem with this.
Those with the chumra have doctored this image to remove the picture of his wife.
I’ve never seen any source that the face of a woman in a picture is pritzus. However, some of the prominent figures in society are prutzos and it could be argued that they shouldn’t be shown at all.
To all readers of Yated Neeman, please make sure to walk out of shul on the 7th day Pesach, in case the haftorah of Devorah singing causes you to have improper thoughts. Actually you should leave during leining because Miriam and the other women are singing in the parasha also.
Reply to #3
Vin is a great web site and I enjoy it, but guys like u who hate everything that makes us a holy nation really nauseate me
I’d prefer they just don’t print the picture at all. While I certainly certainly not arguing the on the tznius reason, cutting someone out of a picture is a sure sign of contempt and disrespect. That is what we would do to someone like haman. These women are national leaders in EY and should be treated with the appropriate derech eretz (even if you disagree with them).
Again, they would have been better off just not printing ANY picture at all.
it’s understandable to black out the women- it’s not misleading to anyone- it’s clear that a woman was there & was blacked out due to the newspapers policy on pictures of woman
on the other hand- to doctor a photo & place people in the photo who weren’t there is misleading & constitutes a forgery in my eyes. insanity. period.
so as usual with every haskafa subjects there are 2 sides the one that reflec the non-torah view influenced by de goyishe gass and the ones who are ehrliche yirei hashem. the is a mitzvas in the torah ‘lo sasuru achrey eineichem’ which in turn creates lewd thoughts which is against taharas hamachsuvos.so therefor staring at pictures results the same and by men besides lewd thoughts results in other avairoh which i will not mention here. yes we have ahave to every yid both genders , vehavta lerayacha kumoche’ goes for both (sunheddrin,not that we need a rayoh but not ahavas hagive ,if you know what i mean).so thsi is not a chumreh. lets hear now, taliban! taliban. for those kind, the whole torah is taliban. i have no safek those who comment ‘its taliban’ re not from shomer torah umitzvos,just from MO and down becuse their dass are mixed with the decadance on the steet mixed with little torah..more from the latter
#7 last 2 words should read ‘more of the former’
#3 if you’re ignorant of halacha ,mussar etc . dont show it.#7 says it aptly
maybe they should just draw shaitels on them and everyone will be happy
#12 ..what a comparison..that picture one can baeley see her. ican say moreon this silly comparison but its lost case
As a frum woman, I am disgusted in this day and age the image of a woman’s face is considered pritzus. When my son’s were in elementary school, their Yiddish workbooks had plenty of illustrations of frum women and girls. Now I wanted to buy a beautiful hagaddah for my Grandaughter but walked out of the bookstore because there was not one image of a frum woman or little girl in it. How am I supposed to teach her to be proud of her self and her accomplishments if the frum world is so scared of the image of a female that it is erased from our history books. Recently there was a wonderful story in Mishpacha magazine of a special Rebbitzen in Mexico. How I wished there was a picture of her in the article to show my daughters how a frum woman should be presented. If there is a increase of anorexia and bulimia in the frum world, it is because girls are made to feel that their bodies are pritzus and should be as small as possible.
#18 ..that wasnt the reason and one who paskens from the torah itself like #11 without torah she bal peh, no looking in the meforshey hatorah who expound on this is apikores
the “issur” of “histaklos b’noshim” (looking at woman) is real and is in the same shilchon Oruch as the one which tells us which shoelace to tie first.
Some say we are extremist and I am sure if the shilchon Oruch or Rambam would have came out these days, the comments here would condemn them for mixing into our private lives and telling us how to use the bathroom, etc. Most believe we are crazy with the “nidah” laws, But we are proud Yidden and not ashamed of anything the Torah says! If any commentator doesn’t like it, they are in fact saying what the Reform are practicing.
I am proud of EVERYTHING my Torah tells me.
#19 you can be frum woman buy you are ignorant of some mitxvos see posters who explain
If it is an issur to see such things, then the ‘frum’ people working at the newspapers can’t see it BEFORE they photoshop it out. right?
Not STARING at women doesn’t mean they should be invisible, it means MEN should not stare at women. There is no halacha that women’s pictures or photos should be erased, etc. These kinds of restrictions only cause people to concentrate more on thoughts they should keep in their bedroom. This also causes a deeper rift between the observant and nonobservant Jews. May be many religious Jews have too much free time and lack of normal human problems. May be more should work for a living as the Torah & Sages teach and work more with other Jews and Gentiles. Then normal Derech Eretz will kick in and behaving yourself will not depend on a picture of a women in a paper or sitting next to you on the bus. Rediculous, hope my children grow up in a world where observance and Judaism is not associated with this type of false piety.
It seems like there are 2 women in the Israeli cabinets out of 32 total(did I count correctly?) That seems like a very low percentage. What is the percentage of female high ranking officials in other countries? I guess for some the answer is zero. What is the percentage for the US cabinet? For the US congress?
For all of you who think it is prohibited to look at a women’s face, I hope you make sure your wives, sisters, daughters and mothers all wear full burkhas. I also hope you never go out in public because there might be unmasked women. Better yet, move to one of the regions in Afghanistan or Pakistan that have been taken over by the Taliban because it sounds like that is where you would be most comfortable and can avoide seeing a horrible, prutiziz face of a female.
This is not a question of tzinus. This is a question of manipulation of an image that conjures up falsehood (falshkeit). The communists in the USSR were masters in photo manipulation to propagandize the reader of their newspapers. I agree with #9 that if it really is an issue of tzinus, they should not have run the photo at all rather than to create a false image. D’var sheker tirchok.
A gutten eruv Shabbis,
For those who insist on this stringency all the best. Personally I find some of the thinking behind some of the posts flawed, Women don’t have thoughts when they look at pictures of men? Really?!!! We would be better off just banning pictures period and all walking around in burkas.
Some one please give me the exact source in the Shulchan Oruch which says mutter to print a picture of a fully dressed women.
I get being modest& not looking at women who r not dressed modestly. but where is the line drawen is this only for newspapers ? wat about on the streets or buses we going to ask women not to walk out or cover their faces. there is nothing wrong with seeing a women dressed (check the jewish law) true seeing a women can lead to certain activites that is where men (myself included) need to have control. don’t make women dispair because we have no control
midvar sheker tirchok
Maybe it were women working at the paper that photoshopped the pictures.
the charedi papers had siyata dishmaya that tzpi livini isnt prime minister they would’ve had a hard time explaining how come she wasnt in the picture
#27 see #7 , #14 and others
Can someone please explain how you’re allowed to walk outside or do anything? If you’re not allowed to see a picture of a woman’s face, then for sure it’s ossur to see a real woman’s face.
This is pretty stupid. Don’t print the picture if you don’t like it. Or print a fragment. Doctoring a picture like this does remind me of the Soviet style censorship. Nikita Hrushev had many tags and moles, but only so many were allowed to be depicted in his pictures. So every painting of him had to be inspected by the censor.
If the picture is objectionable- Don’t print it!
I object to the characterization of chareidi fanatics as “Ehrlicher Yidden”. Their version of “Judaism” Is no more Torah true than that of Karaim.
Most of the readers just missed the point. The main problem is not that they refused to publish a picture of a woman, the problem is they made a FAKE picture. It is one thing not to say everything and another to lie. And all you gaoinim quoting halachos, show me ONE halacha where it sais there is a mitzva to print a color picture of every new government.
The “issur” of looking at a woman is specifically going to look / stare at a woman. There is no issur of printing a picture with a woman in it. There is nothing wrong with even seeing a tznius woman (Shock!!!) The problem arises when everyone makes a huge issue out of nothing, which then makes the nothing a problem.
#42 .. its not a lie as the readrs of these papers know the papers cater to ehrliche yiden who are medakdek kaleh kebechmira and this was the reason these were founded originally.so that said all these posters with all these complains when it comes to haskafa , halacha etc that is ot to their liking ,read the TIMED , NEW YORK POST ETC . WHATS YOUR COMPLAIN? THERE IS NO SPORTS ETC FOR THAT REASON. OH , NOW ‘THOSE’ POSTERS WILL START ‘WHATS WRONG WITH SPORTS ETC’.FOR THAT YOU HAVE TO LEARN A LOT OF TORAH AN MSSAR TO UNDERSATAND WHY NOT..NOT THAT IS AUSSUR BUT
When the media tampers with history, you steal knowledge and truth from the public. This has nothing to do with “modesty”. A black marker can conceal forbidden body parts. Haredi newspapers are engaging in rewriting history and in doing so, selling lies and distortions to the people. People who are interested in pursuing truth will just have to revert to purchasing journals that adhere to truthful journalistic standards, or much worse, the internet.
It’s a good thing Tzipi Livni did not become PM, otherwise, who would they put in her place? Herzl?
Some torah websites not only have photos of women speakers(most are rebetzens) but also have mp3s of their speeches. Wouldn’t hearing female voices(even recorded ones) be even more of an issue than modest photos?
Now that I look at the photos again, removing the women in the photo and replacing them with men seems like more of a political statement that the one who edited the the photo thinks that women shouldn’t have high positions in the Israeli government, and not a matter of tzneus. There is nothing at all immodest about how the two women are dressed.
#53 ..do you believe in the torah shebal peh which consist of shas and shlchn urech. that every seuf in shulchen urech is binding? thats the ‘chareidi ‘ fanatics . and if you dont believe in the above you are not practicing judaism just your own thing. so can you describe what you believe in so i can have an idea of what you consider not charedi as opposed to chreidi so the version of chareidi we know as stated now what is your version. is your understanding of ‘ehrlicher yid’one who checka his blackberry on yom kipper how the stock market is doing or just observing thos mitzvashe feels comfortable with of makes sense to him?
#52 , stop looking at the photo. Whether or not they are properly dressed is beside the point! they are the enemy….those #
#$&%$
&%$ women.
when will this madness end?
A newspaper should have standards. They should be truthful. If they do not want to post pictures of women, they should just not print the picture. Photoshopping a picture is wrong, as the paper is not being truthful and if the picture in the paper is printed later the error is perpertrated again.
If you find that looking at the face of a women leads to evil thoughts, then you have a problem. Asking women to cover their faces because your mind is in the gutter is wrong.
#57…according to you many, many mussur sforim pages should be torn out with the subject of histacklus.also according to you the whole mitzvah of ‘lo sasuru achrei eineichem’ “what, the torah thinks our thoughts is in the gutter’!!? anyway those who have your view of this subject as you ststed are usually the one who have their thoughts in the gutte. the holies tzddikim of all generations , the ones you can really say they did not and dont have teir toughts in the gutter were agreid to look because it might bring them an impure thougt…and you ‘big tzaddiz’ are so eisgearbet that you dont have to worry about it. so you have a major problem, a ruchnious problem. i’m sure its not the honesty of newspaper being untruthful, its the underlying factor that stechs you and what is it, that there are yidden who wre not influencedith the moral decadance of the goishe gass. wasnt bugsey seigel the big gansgter of the roaring twntys? so that prooves my point, thaes are the kind of ‘tzaddikim’ you worship so ales is farenfert.
Just shows how weak minds try to protect themselves from real life. We should find a nice cave for them to sit and learn in. Its horrible to see people make the religion look crazy.
I can’t believe they left the red tie in the picture… disappointing indeed.
And thanks to VIN for showing the original, now I will be able to have dirty thoughts when I sleep.
#27 you logic is so dumb its a waste to comment .by the way see rashiparshes lech lecha on the posik ‘hinai yudati ki eishes yfas mareh ata’ derived from the gemmorah and medresh. by the way, there were holy tzaddikim who barelylooked on thier wifes ..like the holy tzaddik of belz ‘,reb arele but tzddikum of this caliber come onece in geerations,so even if we are far far from such madreigos there is such a thing. so if you are ignorant of a suject in the torah or you are just from thelitsunai hador just dot show it
the “issur” of “histaklos b’noshim” (looking at woman) is SAME FOR A YOUNG, OLD, or SICK WOMAN OR GIRL!! (according to the Rambam and shilchun oruch) Dont try to understand what the Torah and Rambam meant. If this seems extreme or foolish, then drive on Pesach with your wife to your local Reform synagogue for Services.
The bottom line to me is that the Jewish people have totally forgotten the very concept of tolerance for others’ opinions.
Anyone who differs with you gets attacked, bashed and called names.
If they are not as frum as you they are terrible and awful.
If they are more frum than you, they are “Fanatic” “Ultra” or “Crazy”
Whatever anyone does which is not what YOU would choose to do is attacked.
Can’t we all realize that there is more than one derech.
There is YOUR derech, which you obviously think is the best.
But… there are others.
So, if some other group which is more machmir than you are, or practices some chumros which you feel are “foolish” “Silly” “not in the Shulchan Aruch” “Ultra” etc., let live.
Let them do their thing.
Some feel, obviously, that they did the right thing to take out the photos of those 2 women. They did it for more than one reason.
Most likely one reason was way more than tznius, it was because they objected to their actually holding office.
Isn’t PhotoShopping out their pictures a rather mild and harmless protest?
Personally, knowing how they feel, I am surprised they did not protest by blocking entrance to all government buildings and forcing government to stop until they got their way. Sure, they would have been arrested, but they could have had so many people show up that there are not enough Israeli prisons/jails to hold them.
And, it would have looked really bad for Israel to jail and place all those Chareidim in “Camps”
So, the tiny protest act of PhotoShopping out their pictures is a miniscule act.
Sort of like a “Boston Tea Party” using 2 little tea bags, instead of a ship full of tea.
And some of you even Bash them for that?
This photoshop gimmick is typical of the attempt by certain segments of the Jewish population to rewrite the truth to fit its political agenda.The remarks about issur histaklus benoshim are ridiculous, there is absolutely no issur in looking at this picture, just as there is no issur in looking at the famous picture of the Chofetz Chaim in which his wife appears.
Changing the truth is what we call sheker, and it seems that that is what these magazines are all about.