New York – Jewish Press On KJ Poultry Muscovy Duck Controversy

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    New York – Birds, represent a more difficult hurdle in determining their kashrus. The Torah does not enumerate any identifying features to determine the kashrus of a bird. Twenty-four named birds are non-kosher and, ipso facto, all others are kosher. Without specific features given in the Torah that make a bird kosher, the rabbis listed four attributes that must be present: (a) A bird that is dores, a predator, is not kosher. To be kosher, a bird must have: (b) An extra talon on its foot; (c) A zefek or crop, which is a pouch in the esophagus in which food is held; and (d) A korkuvan (gizzard – inner organ) with an inner lining that can be peeled. These simanim, identifying features, continue to be debated.

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    Rashi, in Chulin, set down a ruling in response to many Jews having eaten an unkosher bird, which had confusing features. Rashi set forth that only birds that had a mesorah (tradition) of having been eaten by our fathers and forefathers are to be considered kosher. The Shulchan Aruch, in Yoreh De’ah 82:3 and the Rema (ibid) clearly restate Rashi’s ruling. The discovery of America yielded three types of birds: Turkey, Prairie-Chicken, and Muscovy Duck.

    A proclamation titled “Notice” in “Der Blatt” of January 15, 2010, KJ Poultry of Monroe, N.Y., signed by management, requests the return of ducks purchased “due to the investigation underway of the ducks delivered by a farmer that may have mixed breeds.” The announcement advises that: “Until such time that a clear determination can be made, the ducks are not to be eaten and should be returned.”

    The turkey was immediately accepted as kosher. Halachic questions regarding eating turkey are only found in the 1700s, as much as 200 years after their introduction into Europe and general kashrus acceptance. Benjamin Franklin suggested that the turkey be named America’s national bird and its present highest per capita consumption is in Israel. Reasons for its kashrus acceptance are many and varied, and interestingly it was almost never prohibited by any noted halachic authority. The Praire Chicken on the other hand, widely eaten in early America, was never offered, never considered, and never accepted, as kosher.

    The Muscovy duck, however, has generated much discussion in Halacha. The Muscovy duck has differing features, such as hissing instead of quacking, some black feathering, and non-exclusively-yellow beaks and feet. In addition, its somewhat predatory nature must be considered.

    In 1860, Rabbi Yissachar Dov Illowy, zt”l (1814-1871), a student and musmach of the Chasam Sofer, served as Rabbi in New Orleans. He declared the Muscovy duck as not kosher since it did not have any mesorah. Rabbi Noson Adler, zt”l (1844-1890), Chief Rabbi of London, and Rabbi Shamshon Rafael Hirsch, zt”l (1808-1888), agreed with him. Before Rabbi Illowy, the question of the Muscovy duck never arose, possibly because it was not recognized as a separate species or that it was known by other names.

    Later, in 1908, the Muscovy was presented to Rabbi Shmuel Salant, zt”l (1816-1909), Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, who declared it kosher. In 1954, Rabbi Zvi Pesach Frank, zt”l (1879-1960), Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, indicates in his Har Zvi, Yoreh De’ah 75, that in 1909 the Muscovy was ruled kosher for an Argentinean immigrant. The Har Zvi, however, only permitted the Muscovy to be eaten by those that were already eating it. Possibly, because of determinations such as his, the cheaply nurtured Muscovy was cultivated and eaten in large numbers in Israel during its early and economically difficult years (1949-1954).

    Rabbi Israel Meir Levinger, Chief Rabbi of Basel and President of the European Rabbinical Kashruth Commission, in his Mazon Kasher Min HaChai p. 70-71, quotes Rabbi Naftali Zvi Yehuda Berlin, zt”l (1816-1893), known as the Netziv and author ofMeshiv Davar, who discusses the Muscovy in 1884 and notes that certain communities did accept it while others did not. The Netziv permits the Muscovy in his Meshiv Davar, Yoreh De’ah 2: 22 and is so noted in Arugas HaBosem, Kuntres HaTeshuvos 82. In addition, the Divrei Malkiel is also listed as having permitted the Muscovy.

    Notable in their vehement opposition are Rabbi Chaim Soloveichik, zt”l (1853-1918), Chief Rabbi of Brisk, and Rabbi Chaim Berlin, zt”l (1832-1912), Chief Rabbi of Moscow and Jerusalem.

    In a two-page Kol Koreh proclamation, published in “Der Yid” of January 22, 2010, the Muscovy is carefully and detailedly analyzed and found to be not kosher, calling it a tumah, contaminated, bird. The Kol Koreh carries the signatures of Rabbi Shlomo Zvi Stern, DebricenerRav; Rabbi Yitzchok Stein, Foltechaner Dayan; Rabbi Yitzchak Eliezer Yakub,Rav of Beis Medrash Tevuos Shor and author of Siach Yitzchok; Rabbi Yaakov Zeida, Dayan of Vishnitz; and Rabbi Yechezkel Roth, Karlsburger Rav and author of Emek HaTeshuvah.

    Contemporary scholars note that none of the permitting rabbis discussed the categorization of the Muscovy duck as a predator (dores). This, the scholars maintain, is because the permitting rabbis were not able to observe the Muscovy for any prolonged time. The rabbis prohibiting the Muscovy do so because of its predatory nature, which is an attribute found only in non-kosher birds. Had the permitting rabbis investigated the predatory nature of the bird, undoubtedly say the scholars, the Muscovy would have loudly been declared as non-kosher.

    The OU, in its Position on Certifying Specific Animals and Birds by Rabbi Seth Mandel and Rabbi Chaim Loike, states: “Muscovy Duck – There were relatively many teshuvos written about Muscovy duck. Many are included later in the volume. It is clear that many authoritative poskim permitted it, and others did not. In such a case, OU certification will not be given.”

    The OU’s monthly “Daf HaKashrus” of December 2004, under the heading of “The Kosher Status of Specific Questionable Birds” compiled by Rabbi Yosef Grossman, Editor, the “Daf HaKashrus” writes, “The following list represents the OU’s position regarding the kashruth status of certain questionable birds. This compilation is largely based on the teshuvah of Rav Yisroel Belsky published in last month’s issue of “Daf HaKashrus” and that of Rav Herschel Schachter in this month’s issue.” Muscovy duck is found under the Non-Acceptable column.

    In an OU document titled “B-38 Kosher Status of Specific Birds and Animals, the Muscovy Duck is described as “Commonly considered assur” with Rabbi Yisroel Belsky’s signature, dated Tishrei 5764. Rabbi Yisroel Belsky is Rosh Yeshiva Torah Vodaath and today’s leading Yeshivish posek in America.

    In the “old days” when food may have been scarce and hard to come by, such as in the early years of the establishment of the State of Israel, some rabbis may have relied on various leniencies to allow the consumption of the cheaply grown Muscovy. Today, however, with the abundance of food, these leniencies are likely not accepted by any poskim.


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    54 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Since there is no single accepted leader of this generation, every jew must select one posek who they will follow ALL THE WAY. You can’t listen to a rabbi regarding one thing, and then turn around and disobey him regarding another thing, regardless of the reason and/or the amount of poskim who say differently.

    This is something which is unfortunately seen so much today with issues like the eiruv, sink-water, sheitlech, etc. Some pick and choose different rabbis for each issue, depending on what they want to hear.

    I will strongly agree though with the writer that since there is such an abundance of delicious food out there, why let one’s self into these questions?

    joey
    joey
    14 years ago

    I know a few yidden who do not eat turkey because they dont have a mesorah on it. (these people are einiklach of the chofetz chaim)

    Mendy
    Mendy
    14 years ago

    “The turkey was immediately accepted as kosher.” Actually this is not true, it was a big debate at the time. The Shlah was the minority opinion saying that turkey is not kosher. However he was the minority opinion and we do not follow his ruling. However the Shlah asked in his Tzavah that his descendants refrain from eating turkey and as such there are man of his descendants that wont eat turkey to this day.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Finally I see some well researched work. Everybody is talking….but nobody has any clue…

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    according to rabbi eisenstein’s ozar yisroel encyclopedia that was printed in the US before the war the Muscovy duck also has round eggs witch is a sign of a non kosher bird.

    Charlie Hall
    Charlie Hall
    14 years ago

    Minor point: Rabbi Illowy did not get to New Orleans until 1861, not 1860. Unfortunately the reason he went there was that he supported the wrong side in the American Civil War. But his position on the Muscovy Duck is obviously the correct one, as it is native only to the Western Hemisphere and therefore there is no possibility of there having been a mesorah for it. (The same applies to Turkey, btw.)

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Check out a teshuvah from the Divrei Chaim (Zanz) in which he deals with the kashrus and mesorah of turkey. He sent his son, Reb Yechezkel of Shinyeve to Eretz Yisroel to verify the mesora that was found among the sefardim. In the teshuvah, he states that his son brought some turkeys back to Europe, and that he examined them. He is then matir turkey, based on the sefardic mesora. However, many descendants of Zanz do not eat turkey at all, and claim that although he was matir, the Divrei Chaim himself did not allow it in his home. I write this based on recollection, and if anyone has corrections to this, please comment.

    Longwave
    Longwave
    14 years ago

    The original article should be read by all. This is Rabbi Zivotovsky/s article on the turkey, prairie chicken and muscovy duck.

    This is also a very political issue. Satmar Williamsburg will stop at nothing to blast Satmar Monsey. It has little to do with Kashrus and a lot to do with embarressmant.

    all ducks give back
    all ducks give back
    14 years ago

    if u got any duck in you’re store or freezer return it
    under hechsher of KJ
    KIRYAS YOEL
    the Rabbonim of kiryas yoel
    made a recall on all ducks
    look in Der blat news paper
    & in Der yid

    kosher duck is pink
    kosher duck is pink
    14 years ago

    the moskovey ducks meat which is not good is very RED
    the peckin duck which is kosher is Pink
    all satmar stores took of the ducks of the shelves

    facts
    facts
    14 years ago

    the kosher duck is all white
    & very nice
    the moskovy has some black hair
    & pink by mouth& is very wild &kills; mice&its; own children if its
    hungry
    not like it says in der blat
    as if they both are the same dores
    its not true ask any one in kashrus

    Dave
    Dave
    14 years ago

    Define “predator” here.

    Because if by that you mean, “eats insects, grubs, and worms”, well, chickens do that too.

    Rav Yechezkal Rav kollel
    Rav Yechezkal Rav kollel
    14 years ago

    Harav Yechezkel Roth in his shul& kolel gave a psak in publick
    any one that ate ducks from
    KJ Kiryas yoel
    recently which had muskovy ducks sold as kosher
    by mistake
    SHOULD KASHER their pots
    ask ur Rav!

    help
    help
    14 years ago

    what do I do when I go to a chasuna
    how do I know thay kasherd the kalim from the moskovy duck
    I heard it was sold all over the country?

    satmar
    satmar
    14 years ago

    I heard from inside info
    the Rabbonim of kiryas yol satmar sent away the duck they sold
    to a lab
    & the test came back that it was meskovy
    that’s why in todays der blat news paper their was a new kol korey signed by 6 of their rabbonim not to use their ducks that was sold recently

    thanx VIN
    thanx VIN
    14 years ago

    I didn’t see anything in Hamodia or Yated about the duck recall from
    KJ
    how should a yid in flatbush or lakewood know from the blat or yid ??
    Thanx to VIN for this news

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    To 6:
    Turkeys were permited because it looks similiar to a chiken, and has 4 simunie kasrus. The muskivie duck is a dores even if it looks similiar to pekin ducks.

    don't understand
    don't understand
    14 years ago

    how did KJ shect tens of thousands of ducks not
    knowing that it was miskovy ducks instead of pekin kosher ducks
    could someone explane this pls ???

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    der yid can not be trusted
    They say its not kosher just to accuse KJ of feeding yiden non kosher

    who get the credit
    who get the credit
    14 years ago

    the one who gets the credit for
    saving klal yisroels kashrus
    was at a shcita of G&g they wanted to shect ducks & Rabbi Yitzchok Stien who is a expert in kashrus was their
    he said something is no good
    the ducks are not making noise
    they have black hair etc
    he didn’t let them shect
    he called the farm from where they came
    “sure its miskovy
    they answerd
    but what’s the problem
    Kiryas yoel takes it”
    & now it went around like fire
    u nead so much seiyata dishmaye in kashruth
    I don’t blame kj shochtim
    why should they think the goy in the farm would send muskavy ducks
    it wasn’t just a one time thing the boss-goy in the farm held its the
    same so that’s what he was selling to them
    but here lays the problem
    we need OLDER Rabbonim in kashruth with years of experience

    achdus on kashrus
    achdus on kashrus
    14 years ago

    24 you are wrong
    you are not up to date sorry but
    please buy der blat from today
    they also say by now that their ducks should NOT be eaten
    so now Der blat and der yid both say its not kosher and to give back all ducks

    which duck can I eat
    which duck can I eat
    14 years ago

    does any one know of ducks in the market with good hecsher that have no shailo ?

    cool guy
    cool guy
    14 years ago

    first its meat scandle then toloim in lettuce then finkel then
    dwek now duck
    what’s next
    happy purim

    where do I kasher my pots
    where do I kasher my pots
    14 years ago

    we can I kasher my pots plates spoons etc.?
    do I have to wait till pesach
    I remember in monsey by the finkle story the Rabbonim made a big Tshuva for everyone
    but their was also special kashering centers that people gave in the pots to kasher
    does anyone know of such a kashering center ?

    duck kashrus problem WHY?
    duck kashrus problem WHY?
    14 years ago

    you know why all this happend?
    geuss why?
    muskovy is GEMATRIA
    Mem-40
    Samec-60
    Kuf-100
    Vais-2
    Yud-10
    Total -212
    the same GEMATRIA of
    RIV which means fighting
    Raish-200
    Yud-10
    Vais-2
    total-212
    When are we going to stop all sinas chinom and machlokes?

    looking for info
    looking for info
    14 years ago

    who is taking the achrais
    of all Timtum Halev by the eating of tens of thousands of jews world over ?
    and what can a person do for teshuva since we as buyers were only a Shogeg we ate by mistake
    Did any ones Rav speak about this yet?

    Heimishe Yid who eats tchvokes
    Heimishe Yid who eats tchvokes
    14 years ago

    Can you imagine what will happen to the guy who’s wife wearing an Indian hair sheitel cooked him a supper of muscovy duck bought at Finkel’s store in a strawberry and fig sauce with side dish of brussels sprouts. Poor guy had a carp head and drank Macallans 30 year old single malt scotch after. Then he had a salad of romaine lettuce and caviar, with Glenlivet 18 year old reserve in port casks. He dies and goes in front of Beis Din Shel Maaloh and they shake their heads, not knowing what to do with the guy. Finally one maloch kateigor comes along with the guy’s CD of Lipa and the stub of his Lipa concert seat. And the whole Beis Din screams GEHENOM.

    Bibumin
    Bibumin
    14 years ago

    All this with kashrus reminds me of a bucher who went off the derech and ordered a Burger King double burger on Mezoines bread to avoid washing…

    phonies
    phonies
    14 years ago

    Half of these post are written by same poster just to knock th KJ
    shchita

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    If KJ Duck Meat Is A Problem Than Why Are All The Rabunim (Except KJ)Quite ?

    Go With The Flow
    Go With The Flow
    14 years ago

    It seems that KJ Poultry, with hasgocha of the KJ rabbis and the OU missed a beat. It seems that they were alerted to their own oversight quite by accident. Now that we’ve heard from the KJ rabbis, where is the OU’s kosher alert ? To commentator #10 referencing Rabbi Zivotovsky’s articles on birds, it seems that he would be mattir them. That runs contrary to virtually every Posek today, including Rav Yechezkel Roth, Rav Yisroel Belsky, and even Rav Hershel Shachter. Forgive me, but Rabbi Zivotovsky, as much work as he put into this, is off base. The Muskovy Katchka Duck does not have the unreserved haskoma from any posek, ever. Each posek that was mattir had caveots, whether it was only for those that had some kind of mesora or that there was a famine. The Jewish Press is correct in its conclusion that “Today, however, with the abundance of food, these leniencies are likely not accepted by any poskim.” Political considerations aside, the only real question remains is wether those that inadvertantly consumed the Muskovy must kasher their keilim, pots, and pans, etc.

    Sam
    Sam
    14 years ago

    instead of arguing we should go lchumra and not eat ducks and other birds we are not sure about! drop the taivos

    let's go
    let's go
    14 years ago

    kJ after all is a great hecsher
    everyone can go and ck it out doors are open for every ruv
    mistakes happen to every one

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    the Ramo in yore daya writes not to shect avoz which is ducks on teves or shevat
    from R yehuda hachasid
    looh what happens when u don’t listen to ramo

    ..
    ..
    14 years ago

    Unfortunately, this developed into politics and not a halachic question. Williamsburg Satmar wants to embaress KJ Satmar. Yes, there are diferences of opinion, but for one of the minor shechitas to try to score points by geshreing ‘tamay, tamay’ – this shows that the so called gedolim in the field are not gedolim.

    Does the muscovy duck have a mesora? No, but neither does the turkey. Does it have the simonim? Yes. Is it a predator? Depends who you ask, but the answer was answered by the farmers in Eretz Yisroel who raised it. NO.

    Does it mate with a kosher specie? If it does, then it is kosher. If not, it is not Kosher. The answer is yes.

    If you hold by turkey, then you can eat Muscovy duck. Any other answer shows that you are a hypocrite.

    Concerned
    Concerned
    14 years ago

    1) Turkey was approved ny most gedolei yisroel, Muscovy was prohibited. Those that were “matir” Muscovy, it was with a caveat. 2) KJ claimed the whole time that theirs were Pekins, now all of a sudden the tune changed to Muscovy is allowed. 3) KJ dayonim claim that they sent a duck to a lab for DNA analysis two and a haf weeks ago, I hear that the results are in, why not publish them? 4) One of the Satmar dayonim in Boro Park told someone that he saw the ducksat a previous “shechitah” (not 28 Kislev) and they had some black on their heads, so why the recall only on the lot of 28 Kislev? 5) How come that at all other “shechitahs”, every bird has a “plumba’, incuding KJ chickens, why not the “katchkes”? Isn’t this an invitation for another Finkel fiasco? 6) And last but not least. This past Friday morning there was an anouncement on Kol Satmar hotline (212 444-9899) that at a meeting called by the rebbe (R’ Aron) it was decidet that since there was a “michshol” at another slaughterhoused in PA. they realized that even with the Pekin there was a problem with the “mesorah”, they should issue a recall. – In the afternoon they were made aware how ludicrous this sound and they pulled it.

    Concerned
    Concerned
    14 years ago

    I have seen the Muscovy, had it in my hands and photographed it. The picture by the top of this article is a mature bird, those that are sold in the matkets are younger, with just a little black on their heads. The OU considers it “asur”. Most gedolim of previous generations forbade it. R’ Chaim Berlin z”l says it is assur because it is “doreis” and so does R’ Chaim Brisker. R’ Shamshon Raphael Hirsh say “assur” and R’ Noson HaKohen Adler of London say that in London it is the minhag NOT to eat the Muscovy Ducks. The “matirim” all add a caveat. In our generation you still have to find a reputable rav that allowes the to be eaten. Rabanut of israel approves them as “not glatt”, and all Charedi gedolim asser them, and here come the holy rollers and and say “Mutar Lekatchila”, and the OU that according to their own rules it is “commonly considered assur”, became as mute as the Muscovys.